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[irspro]

If you want a possible good feeling:

http://www.usdreamacademy.org/usdreamnews.html

[GrandmaNettie]

Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.

GrandmaNettie,
Now you're boxing Elder Phipps even further into the corner. Go easy on the guy! Calling him just a presenter or performer moves him into the category of being "willingly ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5. Imagine, an SDA pastor ignorant of business conducted on the Sabbath on his behalf? And yes, this was a business transaction. When you donate to a charity they send you a receipt which says roughly "The donor received no goods, services, or material benefit from this donation". Here, you buy a ticket which is a promise to receive a service. They sell a ticket and provide said service. The ticket purchased a service--a concert. What the seller did with the proceeds is irrelevant as far as the fourth commandment is concerned.

And as far as him not being one of the organizers, Elder Phipps dictated to Fergus Falls when he had an open date and could come, not the other way around. Sounds like organizing to me!

And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church? That small change and we would not be having this conversation.
SDAminister

You must be in good physical shape with all of this bending and stretching...

[GrandmaNettie]

Isn't it time to close this thread.  I am sick of it.

The obvious solution is to simply go and read elsewhere.

I am curious, though, as to why you would be sick of this thread started by SDAminister and strongly supported by Bob, Gailon, irspro and Eduard. 

My own opinion is that it would have been wisdom never to have started the topic in the first place and yet here it is; 17 pages of posts by some who are still firmly resolved to demean the reputation of Wintley Phipps and others as firmly resolved to counter their attacks.

[irspro]

My 50 years of analyzing business models has spoken to me that management\BOD reputation has been diluted to the extent of having an organized conduit closed from shareholders in the pew.  Did this happen on the basis that truth and error cannot exist in the same business model or that the theory of organized support of independent ministry should have never spawned?  Some see exercising good judgement as being judgmental through their poor insight.

[anyman]

This past Sabbath day . . . did you turn on the lights, make toast, oatmeal, shower, use the telephone, drive to church, sleep well because you
knew the police and fire departments were on watch . . . did you turn on the computer and read AT thereby using the electric company and your ISP?

If you did then you required people to work on the Sabbath day and essentially employed them to do so. That would seem to indicate that you were in clear violation of the 4th Commandment. If you did these things you employed the electric company, telephone company, municipal water utilities (also if you flushed the toilet), ISP, policce and fire departments - just to name a few.

And, as far as why this conversation is taking place . . . well, you started it . . . people disagree with you - that is why it is being talked about.

Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.

GrandmaNettie,
Now you're boxing Elder Phipps even further into the corner. Go easy on the guy! Calling him just a presenter or performer moves him into the category of being "willingly ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5. Imagine, an SDA pastor ignorant of business conducted on the Sabbath on his behalf? And yes, this was a business transaction. When you donate to a charity they send you a receipt which says roughly "The donor received no goods, services, or material benefit from this donation". Here, you buy a ticket which is a promise to receive a service. They sell a ticket and provide said service. The ticket purchased a service--a concert. What the seller did with the proceeds is irrelevant as far as the fourth commandment is concerned.

And as far as him not being one of the organizers, Elder Phipps dictated to Fergus Falls when he had an open date and could come, not the other way around. Sounds like organizing to me!

And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church? That small change and we would not be having this conversation.
SDAminister

[bonnie]

This past Sabbath day . . . did you turn on the lights, make toast, oatmeal, shower, use the telephone, drive to church, sleep well because you
knew the police and fire departments were on watch . . . did you turn on the computer and read AT thereby using the electric company and your ISP?

If you did then you required people to work on the Sabbath day and essentially employed them to do so. That would seem to indicate that you were in clear violation of the 4th Commandment. If you did these things you employed the electric company, telephone company, municipal water utilities (also if you flushed the toilet), ISP, police and fire departments - just to name a few.

And, as far as why this conversation is taking place . . . well, you started it . . . people disagree with you - that is why it is being talked about.

Both sides get so extreme it is enough almost to throw in the towel on issues concerning 3ABN Pro and Anti

If others to not agree with or think it necessary to see how many complaints can be leveled at one that is connected to 3ABN, "attempting what I am not sure", then they don't believe in keeping the sabbath.

Then the pro crowd weighs in with another extreme to show those having serious concern over 3ABN and some of it's dealings in an attempt to show how ludicrous the anti-3ABN crowd is.
My use of electricity and modern sources like that is not an excuse for doing what you please on Sabbath and then calling it good. Nor is there anywhere stated that to be opposed to selling non-essentials on Sabbath is hypocritical if those conveniences are used.
While I have very little patience with those attempting to look under the rug for any thing that can be found and tied to 3ABN, I would not necessarily agree with the deliberate planning of selling something non-essential.

I do not know anything about this man or what is reason for this type of planning was okay by him. I don't think I would have, at least from the reasoning I see so far. However,bringing this up does not look like the finest hour of the Anti=3ABN crowd It appears to some it is let's see how much we can throw and how much will stick to the wall.

Those of you that are convinced DS cannot and has not done anything wrong and somehow anointed sounds a bit like cultic following.
Personally after this it would be mighty tough to support either side.

Some things cannot be explained away by you only have partial facts. Try as you will, the horse situation still smells to high heaven as does ebay. Those of you here and elsewhere that have tried to explain DS dealings have not even come close to the bar.
Having done both types of business you have not been convincing,only shown what you accuse others of. Partial facts




spelling correction

[Julius Child]

If you want a possible good feeling:

http://www.usdreamacademy.org/usdreamnews.html

Great article!   Thanks for the information. Isn't it wonderful that so many are willing to support a work that is so important for these kids that statistically have not had much of a chance at a productive future.

I understand that he is recognized by the Points of Light Foundation in Washington DC and is able to reach people that would never have heard anything more about SDAs than the standard cliches that some attach to this denomination.

[Sam]

Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.

GrandmaNettie,
Now you're boxing Elder Phipps even further into the corner. Go easy on the guy! Calling him just a presenter or performer moves him into the category of being "willingly ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5. Imagine, an SDA pastor ignorant of business conducted on the Sabbath on his behalf? And yes, this was a business transaction. When you donate to a charity they send you a receipt which says roughly "The donor received no goods, services, or material benefit from this donation". Here, you buy a ticket which is a promise to receive a service. They sell a ticket and provide said service. The ticket purchased a service--a concert. What the seller did with the proceeds is irrelevant as far as the fourth commandment is concerned.

And as far as him not being one of the organizers, Elder Phipps dictated to Fergus Falls when he had an open date and could come, not the other way around. Sounds like organizing to me!

And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church? That small change and we would not be having this conversation.
SDAminister

Why wait for an explanation from anybody?  Why not practice the biblical method of going to your brother if you have ought?  That would mean contacting Pastor Phipps by phone, email, snail mail, your choice.  Talking to anyone else is nothing but gossip and speculation. Try going to the source for a change.

[SDAminister]

Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.

GrandmaNettie,
Now you're boxing Elder Phipps even further into the corner. Go easy on the guy! Calling him just a presenter or performer moves him into the category of being "willingly ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5. Imagine, an SDA pastor ignorant of business conducted on the Sabbath on his behalf? And yes, this was a business transaction. When you donate to a charity they send you a receipt which says roughly "The donor received no goods, services, or material benefit from this donation". Here, you buy a ticket which is a promise to receive a service. They sell a ticket and provide said service. The ticket purchased a service--a concert. What the seller did with the proceeds is irrelevant as far as the fourth commandment is concerned.

And as far as him not being one of the organizers, Elder Phipps dictated to Fergus Falls when he had an open date and could come, not the other way around. Sounds like organizing to me!

And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church? That small change and we would not be having this conversation.
SDAminister

Why wait for an explanation from anybody?  Why not practice the biblical method of going to your brother if you have ought?  That would mean contacting Pastor Phipps by phone, email, snail mail, your choice.  Talking to anyone else is nothing but gossip and speculation. Try going to the source for a change.

Your "side" can't have it both ways. Someone said the Elder Phipps was not responsible for how the concerts were organized, tickets were sold, and the like. If that is true, why should I go to Elder Phipps about this? Or, is it now being said that he did have something to do with the setup of the for-profit Sabbath concerts?

And calling me out by saying that "talking to anyone else is nothing but gossip and speculation" does not fit the definition of those words. Read my earlier posts, I listed nearly all the people I spoke with on this issue.
SDAminister
p.s. And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held on Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church.

[christian]

Bob:

I am not going to get into a point by point arguement with you.  Those reading this thread will read my comments and your response and decide for themselves who is accurate.

I could respond from the civil filing that began the lawsuit.  However, as you well know the 3-ABN law firm mailed January 30, 2007 a three page letter in which they laid out the basis of their charges.  They made very clear claims of copyright AND trademark issues on pages one and two. Their claims of defamatory/malicious/despicable/baseless/prurient/inflammatory/unjustified statements are stated on pages two and three.

That letter laid out in summation what became the legal filing for what began the lawsuit.

Yes, I am aware that the above letter was addressed to Gailon and not to you.  I am also aware that while both you and Gailon were named as defendents in the lawsuit one can not say that each of you were charged with doing everything that was mentioned in the lawsuit.  Therefore, I might have stated it better in my post above.

Let it be said that while the lawsuit names both Gailona and Bob as defendents, I do not claim that each is charged in the lawsuit with everything.  The charges, so to speak, are lumped into one set of charges, and the two individuals (Bob and Gailon) may not be charged with exactly the same thing.

Regardless of that the issues involved copyright, trademarks and defamatory statements.

Thank you, Bob, for allowing me to clairfy.

Gregory, I have one question for you, please answer directly. Is the lawsuit against Christian principles (yes) or (no). If it is not please explain and if the answer is yes please explain how anyone could support a organization that goes against the bible?

[Gregory]

Christian:

You have a valid question and it is one that I have not responded to for several years.  Yes, I did respond to it some years ago, before Adventtalk was established, and in another forum which has now been closed to discussion of issues regarding 3-ABN and prior posts on that subject have been hidden from public view.  I think that I will respond to your question.

Your answer requires some detail in a response.  If I do not have time to post a response today, I should be able to do so tomorrow.

If you do not mind I shall divide your question up into two parts.  In one part I shall comment on what the policy is of the SDA Chruch.  In another part I shall comment on the Biblical teaching.   I am not certain as to whether I shall post both parts all at once, or if shall post them seperately which may depend on how much time I have.


So, stand by.

Gregory Matthews

[Eduard]

Why wait for an explanation from anybody?  Why not practice the biblical method of going to your brother if you have ought?  That would mean contacting Pastor Phipps by phone, email, snail mail, your choice.  Talking to anyone else is nothing but gossip and speculation. Try going to the source for a change.

Sam,

Phipps VIOLATED IN PUBLIC the Biblical Sabbath keeping guidelines and the SDA Fundamental Belief # 20 as detailed in the Church manual:

Sabbathkeeping
 
The sacred institution of the Sabbath is a token of God’s love to humanity. It is a memorial of God’s power in the original creation and also a sign of His power to re-create and sanctify the life (Eze. 20:12), and its observance is an evidence of our loyalty to Him. The proper observance of the Sabbath is an evidence of our fidelity to our Creator and of fellowship with our Redeemer. In a special sense the observance of the Sabbath is a test of obedience. Unless we can pass that test as individuals, how can we adequately present the Sabbath message to the world?

The Sabbath holds a very special place in the lives of Seventh-day Adventists. The seventh day of the week, from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday (Lev. 23:32), is a gift from God, a sign of His grace in time. It is a privilege, a special appointment with the One who loves us and whom we love, a sacred time set aside by God’s eternal law, a day of delight for worshiping God and sharing with others (Isa. 58:13). The believer welcomes the Sabbath with joy and gratitude. “God’s love has set a limit to the demands of toil. Over the Sabbath He places His merciful hand. In His own day He preserves for the family opportunity for communion with Him, with nature, and with one another.”—Education, p. 251.

The Sabbath hours belong to God, and are to be used for Him alone. Our own pleasure, our own words, our own business, our own thoughts, should find no place in the observance of the Lord’s day (Isa. 58:13). Let us gather round the family circle at sunset and welcome the holy Sabbath with prayer and song, and let us close the day with prayer and expressions of gratitude for His wondrous love. The Sabbath is a special day for worship in the home and in the church, a day of joy to ourselves and our children, a day in which to learn more of God through the Bible and the great lesson book of nature. It is a time to visit the sick and to work for the salvation of souls. The ordinary affairs of the six working days should be laid aside. No unnecessary work should be performed. Secular reading or secular broadcasts should not occupy our time on God’s holy day.

“The Sabbath is not intended to be a period of useless inactivity. The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord; the toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon that day; but as God ceased His labor of creating, and rested upon the Sabbath and blessed it, so man is to leave the occupations of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds.”—The Desire of Ages, p. 207.

A rightly directed program of activities in harmony with the spirit of true Sabbathkeeping will make this blessed day the happiest and best of all the week, for ourselves and for our children—a veritable foretaste of our heavenly rest( Church Manual, pp. 173-174).


The basic issue here is:

The proper observance of the Sabbath is an evidence of our fidelity to our Creator and of fellowship with our Redeemer. In a special sense the observance of the Sabbath is a test of obedience. Unless we can pass that test as individuals, how can we adequately present the Sabbath message to the world?


Matthew 18 applies to PERSONAL MATTERS between two members of the church. In the NIV version of the Bible the discussion of this topic begins with the subtitle, "A Brother Who Sins Against You." PUBLIC MATTERS need to be dealt with PUBLICLY. See, for instance, how Paul confronts Peter PUBLICLY in Antioch (Galatians 2:11-14). Remember also what happened to Robert Folkenberg when it was found out that he had been involved in dark business.

Phipps' transgression of the Sabbath has been published in the secular media and is a PUBLIC MATTER. As a pastor who denied his duty to keep the ten commandments, how can he still preach the Sabbath when he broke it? His credibility as an SDA minister is gone. Phipps should do what Folkenberg did: resign and repent publicly for his desecration of the Sabbath and the bad example he has given to the SDA church members, to other churches, and to the unbelievers concerning the keeping of the Sabbath.

Eduard

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

"Traveling on the Sabbath

"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)

Bob, this is an interesting EGW quote for you to bring up in this particular thread.  Perhaps SDAminister hadn't run across this one in his studies before he started this thread to regretfully try to sully the reputation of Pastor Wintley Phipps due to his seat on the 3abn BOD.

GrandmaNettie,
...and perhaps SDAminister had run across this one in his studies.

Let's reestablish a few facts:
-Elder Phipps was not traveling to an SDA church to give a Sabbath message

So?  It would make it all better if his destination was an SDA church?  The quote that Bob used as supporting material for his argument stated "in order to reach the churches that need our help".  It did not specify SDA churches.

-The purpose of Elder Phipps trip was to raise money for his business/charity---US Dream Academy. See the motive? Not Sabbath truth, but money for Dream Academy.

US Dream Academy is his ministry.  The man who organized the fundraiser did so to  raise and donate the funds to Wintley Phipps' ministry.  God's message to this world is not only "Sabbath truth", it is everlasting life for those who believe in Him.  See John 3.

-Since Elder Phipps has stated, according to others on this forum, that he is a full time employee of the Dream Academy, why didn't he travel to his destination on the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday preceding his concert? You know, the days of the week that he works for the Dream Academy. As you so eloquently quoted, "When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath". Elder Phipps appears to have failed to do what you suggested he do. Instead, he skipped the service at his own church Sabbath morning and took a mid-day Sabbath flight across country to perform at a for-profit concert.

SDAminister

Few will buy your feeble attempt to attribute the words of the EGW statement from Bob's post as me suggesting anything to Pastor Wintley Phipps.  I'm certain that some will be flattered that you tried, though.

You might want to check with an accountant to determine if that event was actually a "for-profit concert" or if, perhaps, you have mispoken. 

I believe you have just expressed an ecumenical view grandma. You lean any further left and we will have to get you a crutch just to calzl you a Seventh-day Adventist!!!

Do you need studies on being a Seventh-day Adventist or do you also subscribe to the premise that we all can be saved in our sins and therefore it makes no difference what we believe as long as we believe on the Name Jesus Christ?

I think we already had that battle with Elder Ford, et al? I know Glacier View is held in low esteam on the "LEFT COAST" but never the less, it has soundly defined the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. All others are not Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and represent apostacy, a sign of the times, I suppose.

Gailon Arthur Joy

[bonnie]

I believe you have just expressed an ecumenical view grandma. You lean any further left and we will have to get you a crutch just to calzl you a Seventh-day Adventist!!!

Do you need studies on being a Seventh-day Adventist or do you also subscribe to the premise that we all can be saved in our sins and therefore it makes no difference what we believe as long as we believe on the Name Jesus Christ?

I think we already had that battle with Elder Ford, et al? I know Glacier View is held in low esteam on the "LEFT COAST" but never the less, it has soundly defined the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. All others are not Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and represent apostacy, a sign of the times, I suppose.

Gailon Arthur Joy

At the risk of getting my fingers slapped I was wondering Gailon if you would mind enlightening me on something.

You lean any further left and we will have to get you a crutch just to calzl you a Seventh-day Adventist!!!


You so often seem to feel the need to put down those in disagreement with your view. Why is that? 

These kind of comments are in the vast majority of your posts.

If you feel this is out of line, by all means say so

[anyman]

I believe you have just expressed an ecumenical view grandma. You lean any further left and we will have to get you a crutch just to calzl you a Seventh-day Adventist!!!

Do you need studies on being a Seventh-day Adventist or do you also subscribe to the premise that we all can be saved in our sins and therefore it makes no difference what we believe as long as we believe on the Name Jesus Christ?

I think we already had that battle with Elder Ford, et al? I know Glacier View is held in low esteam on the "LEFT COAST" but never the less, it has soundly defined the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. All others are not Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and represent apostacy, a sign of the times, I suppose.

Gailon Arthur Joy

The comforting thought as one reads your vitriol is that God is in charge and God judges, because God knows the heart of each individual . . . because if you were in charge I am sure there would only be two homes up in heaven - one for you and one for Mr. Robert Pickle.

Interesting comment in bold above . . . were you there? Were you involved in the discussion/debate? Were you even in the the general Glacier View area when that occurred? If not then why the inclusive pronoun "we"? I am going to guess you were not.

So, let's place an answer out there for consideration, you use the inclusive . . . because you prefer conflict to peace . . . you prefer dissension to unity . . . you prefer judmentalism to grace (in fact I would go so far as to say grace is absent your vocabulary) . . . you have a triumphalist attitude that goes beyond, way beyond, to believing that you alone are the guardian of truth - and it is certainly a truth >you< have interpreted (rather messianic don't you think?) . . . but bottom line is, you seem to subscribe to the philosophy of Todd Rundgren:

I don't want to work
I want to bang on these drums all day