Advent Talk

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to Advent Talk, a place for members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church! 

Feel free to invite your friends to come here.

Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 20   Go Down

Author Topic: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath  (Read 192953 times)

0 Members and 28 Guests are viewing this topic.

Eduard

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #225 on: August 19, 2008, 01:55:33 PM »


I won't be specifically replying to your earlier question as I believe that one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves and God. 

The perspective that "one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves [sic!] and God" applies to those who do not consider the Bible as their rule of faith and conduct. Those who hold the Bible as the Word of God know that God has provided clear and detailed guidelines about Sabbath observance.

Do you speak on the Sabbath, or stop talking at the sunset? Do you know that SDA church members participate in the Sabbath School on-line? Attempts to find something wrong with posting in a forum on the Sabbath indicate lack of maturity.

As an ordained SDA minister, Wintley Augustus Phipps showed serious lack of spiritual discernment  and very poor judgement when he allowed unbelievers to handle what was supposed to be a faith concert. He dishonored God and cast a shadow on the SDA practice of Sabbath observance. His actions cannot be excused whether they are linked with 3ABN or not. He should resign as a pastor, or his pastoral credentials should be withdrawn.


Eduard

Logged

Bob Pickle

  • Defendants
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4061
    • Pickle Publishing
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #226 on: August 19, 2008, 02:02:42 PM »

Gregory isn't making sense on these various points.

First of all, copyright is not a count in the lawsuit's complaint, and anyone reading it can see that. Of course, Duffy's letter and references to copyright in the complaint provide a basis for asking the court to strike the references to copyright on the grounds that 3ABN has already declared in a court of law that none of their programming is copyrighted. But it still remains true that I was threatened by a 3ABN attorney if I dare try and do that since copyright is not one of the counts.

Secondly, 3ABN/Danny are trying to claim that none of the defamation issues in Duffy's letter are relevant to the complaint. I disagree, but the very fact that they are trying to maintain that suggests that they very well know they don't have a case on those issues. (Hint: all the issues have something to do with Tommy.)

As far as trademark issues are concerned, those were addressed soon after Duffy's letter was received. If Duffy/3ABN/Danny felt that they were not addressed adequately, they could have requested that they be addressed further. Pretty irresponsible to spend loads of money in litigation if another letter would have sufficed.

Recall also that that letter by Duffy claimed common law copyright protection, which I understand hasn't existed on the state level anywhere in the U.S. since 1978, or on the federal level since the 1830's. If Duffy wanted to come across as extremely competent and honest, which would have led one to take more seriously his demands, he should never have claimed common law copyright protection. I don't recall him sending another letter to explain his mistake.

Additionally, Duffy's letter itself is evidence that the allegations are true. One of the alleged defamatory statements is: "3ABN directed an attorney to use 'intimidation tactics to cover up allegations of child molestation.' " I doubt that either Gailon or I have said anything exactly like this, but consider that Duffy's letter was indeed an attempt to silence concerns about child molestation allegations through intimidation.

Unless someone wants to say that Duffy's letter was not intended to be intimidating!
Logged

GrandmaNettie

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 342
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #227 on: August 19, 2008, 02:12:17 PM »


I won't be specifically replying to your earlier question as I believe that one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves and God. 

The perspective that "one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves [sic!] and God" applies to those who do not consider the Bible as their rule of faith and conduct. Those who hold the Bible as the Word of God know that God has provided clear and detailed guidelines about Sabbath observance.

Do you speak on the Sabbath, or stop talking at the sunset? Do you know that SDA church members participate in the Sabbath School on-line? Attempts to find something wrong with posting in a forum on the Sabbath indicate lack of maturity.

As an ordained SDA minister, Wintley Augustus Phipps showed serious lack of spiritual discernment  and very poor judgement when he allowed unbelievers to handle what was supposed to be a faith concert. He dishonored God and cast a shadow on the SDA practice of Sabbath observance. His actions cannot be excused whether they are linked with 3ABN or not. He should resign as a pastor, or his pastoral credentials should be withdrawn.


Eduard



I agree that there is something a little grammatically amiss in Julius Child's noted sentence structure.  However, I happen to agree with the premise that Sabbath observance is defined on a personal level between an individual and God.

Having said that, I would appreciate it if you would post the "clear and detailed guidelines about Sabbath observance" found in the Bible.  I believe it would greatly enhance this discussion to have them clearly stated here in black and white.

Logged
??? ?? ??? ?? ????

Artiste

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 3036
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #228 on: August 19, 2008, 02:53:25 PM »

The lawsuit complaint brings up several interesting points, and I can see why Danny Shelton/3ABN wanted to have it impounded.
Logged
"Si me olvido de ti, oh Jerusalén, pierda mi diestra su destreza."

Artiste

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 3036
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #229 on: August 19, 2008, 03:06:13 PM »

I see that 3ABN lawyer Duffy's "Cease and Desist" letter mentioned copyright and trademark, whereas the lawsuit only claimed trademark infringement...no copyright issues.
Logged
"Si me olvido de ti, oh Jerusalén, pierda mi diestra su destreza."

Gregory

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 964
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #230 on: August 19, 2008, 03:30:33 PM »


The lawsuit does not include a count over copyright issues...


No doubt this has been expained before, but which is it...the lawsuit does or does not reference copyright issues?

And if it doesn't, why is Gregory stating that it does?

Here is what the actual lawsuit says on page 8, # 30: 

Quote
The Infringing Website also contains an unauthorized embedded copy of a copyrighted 3ABN broadcast, which visitors can either launch and watch while on the Infringing Website or duplicate by copying the program, via electronic download, from the Infringing Website.

Bob has correctly told us (I am not quoting him directly) that the lawsuit does not contain a numbered count related to copyright.  I never said that it did.  I stated that the issues involved in the lawsuit were related to copyright as well as others.  My substantation for that is given above.   The issue of copyright is mentioned in the formal filing of the lawsuit even though it is not a numbered count.

Here is exactlywhat I said:

Quote
Further, the case filed by 3-ABN and Danny involves copyright and trademark issues.  Those issues are clearly not frivolous.

Folks, I was accurate.  The case filed by 3-ABN did involve copyright and that was mentioned in the legal filing but not as a numbered count.

Here is exactly what Bob said to me in response:

Quote
Gregory isn't making sense on these various points.

First of all, copyright is not a count in the lawsuit's complaint, and anyone reading it can see that.

Bob is correct.  Copyright is not a numbered count and I did not say it was.

But, it was involved as it was mentioned in the lawsuit.

While Bob was correct in what he said, people reading it would likely  understand it to mean that copyright was not involved and that he was telling me that I was wrong.  I was right. So was Bob.

Folks this is revelant as:  1) I wanted to point out that I was not wrong.  2) You must read what Bob posts very carefully.  If you do not do so you may misunderstand it and think that he said something that he can truthfullly deny later that he said.

Read carefully folks.




« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 03:40:39 PM by Gregory »
Logged

Bob Pickle

  • Defendants
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4061
    • Pickle Publishing
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #231 on: August 19, 2008, 03:31:40 PM »

The only broadcast 3ABN has ever registered for copyright was the one that contained the infamous tribute to alleged pedophile Tommy Shelton.

Yet an argument could be made that that registration was fraudulently obtained since 3ABN at the very same time still had a case pending in which they had claimed that none of their programming was copyrighted.

How can they have it both ways?
Logged

Bob Pickle

  • Defendants
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4061
    • Pickle Publishing
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #232 on: August 19, 2008, 03:34:28 PM »


The lawsuit does not include a count over copyright issues...


No doubt this has been expained before, but which is it...the lawsuit does or does not reference copyright issues?

And if it doesn't, why is Gregory stating that it does?

Here is what the actual lawsuit says on page 8, # 30: 

Quote
The Infringing Website also contains an unauthorized embedded copy of a copyrighted 3ABN broadcast, which visitors can either launch and watch while on the Infringing Website or duplicate by copying the program, via electronic download, from the Infringing Website.

Bob has correctly told us (I am not quoting him directly) that the lawsuit does not contain a numbered count related to copyright.  I never said that it did.  I stated that the issues involved in the lawsuit were related to copyright as well as others.  My substantation for that is given above.   The issue of copyright is mentioned in the formal filing of the lawsuit even though it is not a numbered count.

That does not negate the fact that a 3ABn attorney has threatened me if I dare try to get the references to copyright stricken since copyright is not one of the counts.

So a question, Gregory, is what relevance does copyright issues have to the lawsuit if its not one of the counts?

And then, why waste so much money filing such a suit as far as copyright issues go? What really is to be gained?
Logged

Julius Child

  • New Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
  • Köket är min sak... God Aptit!
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #233 on: August 19, 2008, 03:49:59 PM »


I won't be specifically replying to your earlier question as I believe that one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves and God. 

The perspective that "one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves [sic!] and God" applies to those who do not consider the Bible as their rule of faith and conduct. Those who hold the Bible as the Word of God know that God has provided clear and detailed guidelines about Sabbath observance.

Do you speak on the Sabbath, or stop talking at the sunset? Do you know that SDA church members participate in the Sabbath School on-line? Attempts to find something wrong with posting in a forum on the Sabbath indicate lack of maturity.

As an ordained SDA minister, Wintley Augustus Phipps showed serious lack of spiritual discernment  and very poor judgement when he allowed unbelievers to handle what was supposed to be a faith concert. He dishonored God and cast a shadow on the SDA practice of Sabbath observance. His actions cannot be excused whether they are linked with 3ABN or not. He should resign as a pastor, or his pastoral credentials should be withdrawn.


Eduard



First of all, let's get the [sic!] regarding my grammar out of the way.  I used Microsoft Office Home and Student 2007 to check for spelling and grammar in my post.  The sentence you pointed out with the [sic!] after "themselves" is a grammatically acceptable way to word that particular sentence.  There may be alternate ways that would be more pleasing to an expert such as yourself, but I believe a [sic!] is a little overboard.  When I ran your reply through the same check, it revealed that your first sentence was fragmented and needed some refining, that you had added and extra space after "discernment" and that "judgement" was a variant of the the proper spelling for the word "judgment".

Secondly, I believe that posting on a forum is a fine pasttime for the Sabbath hours if the discussion is uplifting.  Those who set a high standard of conduct for others would seemingly apply the same standards to themselves.

Finally, I find your last paragraph ludicrous.  If you feel that strongly about Pastor Wintley Phipps performing at that concert in MN in the manner he did, contact his conference president and make a detailed complaint.  In fact, perhaps someone should email all of these posts to his conference president, to GAJ's conference president and pastor and then, for good measure, to the MN conference president.

There are certainly shadows being cast here.  Darkly hideous ones.
Logged

Habanero

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #234 on: August 19, 2008, 08:31:34 PM »

I fail to see the relevance of Wintley Phipps and his Saturday night concert, to 3ABN. If we are going to be strictly Biblical about it, I know quite a number of people who should be stoned to death for picking up sticks on Sabbath for campfires while out camping, or on Pathfinder events. If you have ever lit a stove or oven, started a car, taken a long walk, enjoyed a bath/shower or done any number of other things, you are as biblically guilty of breaking the Sabbath as he is, IMO.

Wintley was raising money to help kids whose parents are incarcerated. Jesus spent his years helping people with their temporal needs, and even brought up the subject of imprisoned people in Matt 25. As I see it, Wintley was out actively doing the Lord's work by taking care of needy kids. This world would be alot better off with more of us doing that sort of thing. I believe that Heaven will be populated with people who spoke their love of God in actions of kindness for others, as opposed to just speaking it with their mouths on Sabbath morning or in Bible studies before heading to bed for that afternoon nap.

What he has done, said or voted in his capacity as a 3ABN board member, I don't know, but I don't see how that has anything to do with helping out kids who need help. 3ABN is not a charity. It does not function for the purpose of doing charitable deeds for people in need, its function, IMO, is to preach at people. Wintley's organization, on the other hand, is a real charity that does charitable deeds and functions entirely for that purpose. As per Jesus, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day, and that is what Wintley was doing.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 10:50:22 PM by Habanero »
Logged

SDAminister

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #235 on: August 19, 2008, 11:27:55 PM »

Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.
GrandmaNettie,
Now you're boxing Elder Phipps even further into the corner. Go easy on the guy! Calling him just a presenter or performer moves him into the category of being "willingly ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5. Imagine, an SDA pastor ignorant of business conducted on the Sabbath on his behalf? And yes, this was a business transaction. When you donate to a charity they send you a receipt which says roughly "The donor received no goods, services, or material benefit from this donation". Here, you buy a ticket which is a promise to receive a service. They sell a ticket and provide said service. The ticket purchased a service--a concert. What the seller did with the proceeds is irrelevant as far as the fourth commandment is concerned.

And as far as him not being one of the organizers, Elder Phipps dictated to Fergus Falls when he had an open date and could come, not the other way around. Sounds like organizing to me!

And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church? That small change and we would not be having this conversation.
SDAminister
Logged

Fran

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 572
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #236 on: August 19, 2008, 11:28:33 PM »

Isn't it time to close this thread.  I am sick of it.
Logged

SDAminister

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #237 on: August 19, 2008, 11:45:37 PM »

However, I happen to agree with the premise that Sabbath observance is defined on a personal level between an individual and God.
Having said that, I would appreciate it if you would post the "clear and detailed guidelines about Sabbath observance" found in the Bible.  I believe it would greatly enhance this discussion to have them clearly stated here in black and white.
Better yet, why don't you contact your own church pastor (if you aren't one) or one of the elders. Ask them if the Bible (or if I may add, the Spirit of Prophecy) has any info whatsoever on Sabbath observance.
I mean, is 150 years of Adventist Sabbath-keeping built upon something that you think isn't in the Bible? And maybe you'd like to share with us where it is in the Bible that "Sabbath observance is defined on a personal level between an individual and God."
Do you think we'll all just be doing our own thing on Sabbath throughout eternity, or will God have something else planned for us?
SDAminister
Logged

irspro

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #238 on: August 20, 2008, 12:43:12 AM »

I'm not here to convince you of morals or change your attitudes; however, you may benefit from my experience in both the "profit" as well as the "not for profits" also.  I had to become so proficient with business model even to learning many things about the equipment they used, the costs, etc.  To ease your minds, I felt comfortable in any environment and any organization I found myself.  I've even effectively declared dividends, taxwise, from incorporated pocketbooks  to well-known personalities which agreed with me in the final analysis. 

I've dealt with all type of media that found themselves in situations where they had to adapt to audiance acceptance which they monitored very closely at substantial costs.  You may be so attentive to note that some media types may broadcast certain accompanying items as not being viewed as necessarily in agreement with the opinions of owners, management, and/or its employees. 

Two of the conglomerate life insurance companies which I examined which caused my untimely promotion each owned television as well as AM\FM radio broadcast facilities with FCC license which were very profitable.  During the license renewal processes, one lost their televesion broadcast license due to discrimination allegations as not serving the general public.  Profitability during this period of alleged discrimination dis not cause the broadcaster to change it programming significantlly which resulted in the loss of its broadcast priviliges.

This license was awarded to an exempt organization dedicated to civic improvement and owned by a national church organization and some local civic minded individuals.  Eventually, the call letters and equipment of the old broadcaster was sold to the exempt organization which esentially carried on as an affiliate of the former network while it adapted to the local audience with programming changes.  Neilsen and other rating bureau ratings were not a real concern for me under the circumstances as there was no tax consequence.

While a religious organization was part and parcel of the new ownership, religious discrimination was not part of the original complaint.  The complaint as I best remember was along some discriminatory practices in political advertising along with a lesser amount in programming.

Religious broadcasters relying on cash flow from gifts and donations for survival are responsible to their audience's confidence in the programming which can be a reflection of the audience's perception of the integrity of its board of directors, management, and/or employees.  I have had insurance companies that were owned and service their membership organizations who filed exempt organization tax return yet filed regular corporate tax returns on their life, A&H, casualty, and inland marine insurance only available to their membership orginazions chartered on a state by state basis.  Over the years, some of the state memberships elected to form their own insurance corporations for various reasons indicating confidence in integrity of business model.

My broad experience with brodasters, internet providers including analog, microwave and digital, communications including analog and microwave gave me a little interesting insight to broad field of electronics as an investor as well as an auditor.  Working with my older brother as an electronics engineer, you could see the effect of rf energy which would cause an ordinary bulb to glow as you passed it only near a mobile radio antannae.  I also learned that ittakes near 4 hours for rf of  an ordinary power television broadcast antannae to bleed down to safe levels before ascending the tower for service.  rf power is known to cause the emission of some metal fasteners to disappear into the atmosphere. 

As an investor, my due dilligence gave me the necessary knowledge to be a better investor in some of the telephone technology using fiber optics and light transmission.  One of the large banks advised me about one of their most successful stock investments came about by a loan to a motel operator who entered the business of long distance where messages were tranmitted in packets much faster, directed, and connected by the use of computers.  The use of glass fibers to transmit signals by light transmission required more accuracy than some of us may apply in Sabbath observance.  A scheme to weld a glass fiber the size of a hair was devised using lazers so that the light would be reflected accurately for miles over miles.  I also learned that light is impeded when the fiber changes angles of direction.  I have been reasonably advised that a discovery was made which transmits light at 186,000 miles per second even through 90 degree angled connections in hardware.

A further discovery came with the rainbow effect in fiber optics where they split the light spectrum to transmit the packets on the 7 seperate colors, violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange, and red.

This professional's understanding of business models for 50 years speaks to me even in starting a religious radio\television business.  Don't hitch your business model to even an organized entity saddled with the Ten Commandments, as some may see, and who are subject to independent decisions on their business model which they feel with a need for fine tuning.  Tell me if I am wrong if the GC lets the tail wag the dog if they find a possible problem with funding vehicles of independent ministries through the regular organized church?  Do you look to the GC for financial decency and order?  It appears to me that the BOD should have taken the GC to task rather than the audience\supporters where the total net worth of the defendants wouldn't cover the legal fees.  I call that spending good money for bad.  But, who am I? 

My advice to constituiencies is to call sin by its right name and vote with your feet if your position in the regularly organized church is not effective.  Keep your own skirt clean to be effective with what you do in you own little corner of the vineyard.  If you are a defendant, proper names can get you out on a limb where the plaintiff is either  right or wrong.  Keep your posterior toward the tree before any limb sawing.  The GC may be composed of office occupants like the local conference president who was voted out of office three time by the nominating committee; however, they continue to warm a swivel chair some three years into a quinquinnum.  But, who am I?



« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 01:04:47 AM by irspro »
Logged

irspro

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #239 on: August 20, 2008, 07:48:24 AM »

Anybody have an opinion on syndicated religious programming?  I uncovered a number of my audited expensing their syndicated programming rather than amortization on a per showing basis over the term of the contract.  Syndication would remove the moral matters of some of the lower educated.

Anybody have a URL to GC official actions on independent ministry conduits through the local church?

I saw some reference to a very high official in GC stewardship at the campmeeting.  The most outstanding thing I remember from the past was the men of the church gathering to build a house with some paid labor with some donated. Is any indication of heavenly honesty?  That was the closest to community service I remember.  The last pastor defended 3 miles of highway trash collection as the only community service I remember.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 07:53:44 AM by irspro »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 20   Go Up