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Author Topic: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath  (Read 192948 times)

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irspro

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #195 on: August 18, 2008, 08:43:04 AM »

"I" feebly attempt to avoid messages from sore-heads with burrs under their saddles.  I have had the opportunity to have the keys turned on a few as an agent when they thought were were sounding intelligent when they stated, "I guess I just shaved sales too much."  There are criminal fraud penalties as well as civil fraud penalties which sound alike and somewhat mirror each other.

I was adept at knocking the horns of some independent thinking preachers who I offered the teaching job, which I knew to be a mistake.  But, he refused the offer and changed his excuse which save my mistake had he taken.  The alleged teen rape sent him packing to Arkansas.

Some here remind me of that GreatFellow!
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #196 on: August 18, 2008, 08:49:51 AM »

You are only eroding the base of support you still had

So if I comment about Sabbath keeping, I lose support? I don't think so.
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Artiste

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #197 on: August 18, 2008, 08:52:59 AM »


Do you know how many SDA's are in prison now or who lost their jobs because they would not do what Elder Phipps boldly does? I don't know the number. God does.


Interesting point.
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Artiste

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #198 on: August 18, 2008, 08:55:17 AM »


For-what-it's-worth, I have already spoken at length with my conference president about this issue. He is not amused by what Elder Phipps did.


Also interesting.
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SDAminister

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #199 on: August 18, 2008, 02:25:14 PM »

Perhaps we should extend this discussion further. If it is all right for Elder Phipps to hold a concert on the Sabbath that you have to pay to get in to, what's keeping him from doing so at any of the camp meetings he attends? Why not have a Sabbath evening concert at next year's Texico Conference camp meeting? Tickets: $25 in advance, $30 at the door.

And if it is all right to buy and sell tickets on the Sabbath for a good cause like Elder Phipps charity, why doesn't 3ABN do such a thing at its camp meeting? You know, they could sell tickets to benefit their own charity--themselves. What would be wrong with this, if we were to follow such logic?

SDAminister
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GrandmaNettie

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #200 on: August 18, 2008, 06:14:50 PM »

Perhaps we should extend this discussion further. If it is all right for Elder Phipps to hold a concert on the Sabbath that you have to pay to get in to, what's keeping him from doing so at any of the camp meetings he attends? Why not have a Sabbath evening concert at next year's Texico Conference camp meeting? Tickets: $25 in advance, $30 at the door.

And if it is all right to buy and sell tickets on the Sabbath for a good cause like Elder Phipps charity, why doesn't 3ABN do such a thing at its camp meeting? You know, they could sell tickets to benefit their own charity--themselves. What would be wrong with this, if we were to follow such logic?

SDAminister



Who said it was all right for Wintley Phipps to "hold" a concert on the Sabbath that you have to pay to get in to?

Are we talking about a whole different event now or still the "Fergus Falls" function?  If you are referring to the function at Fergus Falls, when did Wintley Phipps move from being invited to speak and sing (perform) to the one who held the event?  Is this a hypothetical situation you are throwing out for exntended discussion?   If not, IMO your stretching and twisting is developing the distinct appearance of bearing false witness.

http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/news/2008/aug/07/phipps-add-ff-his-world/

http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/news/2008/aug/01/wintley-phipps-performing-life-church/

Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #201 on: August 18, 2008, 06:34:43 PM »

Let's make sure we don't become pharisaical. Just because someone else handles the sales and such and then gives us the money does not mean we aren't responsible when we knew up front that that was how it was going to work.
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Emma

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #202 on: August 19, 2008, 02:44:40 AM »

Let's make sure we don't become pharisaical. Just because someone else handles the sales and such and then gives us the money does not mean we aren't responsible when we knew up front that that was how it was going to work.



Amen, Bob
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Gregory

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #203 on: August 19, 2008, 03:35:05 AM »

Grandma Nettie thank your for your post it has given me a new perspective on what happened.

1) We have a bank and an Art Center who agreed to underwrite the cost of the concert.  It was not WP who was responsible for the costs of the concert.  As I understand the word "underwrite" that does not mean that they agreed tp finance the concert.  Rather it means to me that they agreed to cover any financial loss that occured if the sale of the tickets did not cover the expenses.

Folks, under these circumstances, where they have accepted a potential financial loss, why would WP have the right to dictate to them when they could sell the tickets?"

2) I have noted that the proceeds from the concert were to be donated to a WP charity.  AS I understand the word "proceeds" that tells me that the costs of the concert were to be deducted from the sale of the tickets.  The profits, if any, were the property of the sponsors--the bank and the art center.  There was no legal obligation to transfer any of the profits to WP.  However, the sponsors had voluntaly agreed to make a gift of the profits to a charity of WP.

Folks, WP did not hire the bank and the Art Center to raise money for his charity.  Rather they contracted with him to perform at a concert that they controlled.

3)  I will illustrate:  I own a piece of property which amounts to 400 acres.  [NOTE: I do not, but for this illustration I do.]  I rent those 400 acres out to a farmer who then plants wheat on that land.  My rental price for the land is pricee that he will be paid for 20 per-cent of his crop of wheat.  Once I have rented the farmer the land, he has the right to farm his wheat as he choses.  I do not have a right to tell him that he can not harvest his wheat on sabbath.

Or another illustration:

I have $75,000 that I have placed in a bank savings account.  [NOTE: I do not.  But in this illustration I do.]  The Bank takes my $75,000 and uses it to make loans to peole who then purchase property and establish a business.  I do not have the right to tell the bank that they can not lend my money to a restaurant that will be open on the Sabbath.  And the bank does not have the right to tell that restaurant owner that the restaurant can not be opened on the Sabbath.

4) Folks, Sabbath observance is taught in the Bible in general principles.  The details are left to the individual and that persons response to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  I can understand that some people would have made personal choices different from what WP made. But, at what point do you leave it to the individual and God?  I have been told by people reading this thread that if certain views expressed in it are the view of the SDA Church they would not want to be a member.  Those comment have not come from the perspective of the idea that the concert was wrong.  They have come from the perspective of the very public criticism of a member of the family of God.  i.e.  Why would one want to become a member of an organization who might tear them apart as has been done here?

5) This thread is an example of why I say that while certain critics of 3-ABN began with a high moral purpose, some of those critics have abandoned the high moral purpose that they once had.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #204 on: August 19, 2008, 05:59:16 AM »

5) This thread is an example of why I say that while certain critics of 3-ABN began with a high moral purpose, some of those critics have abandoned the high moral purpose that they once had.

Discussing the importance of Sabbath keeping and abstaining from the appearance of evil is abandoning a high moral purpose? Sounds like a stretch.
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Gregory

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #205 on: August 19, 2008, 06:25:09 AM »


Discussing the importance of Sabbath keeping and abstaining from the appearance of evil is abandoning a high moral purpose? Sounds like a stretch.

Bob, the above is an example of why there are some who accuse you of twisting statements into something that they are not.

You will not find one place where I have equated "discussing the importance of Sabbath keeping and abstaining from the appearance of evil" as "abandoning a high moral purpose."

If you had even a minimal  understanding of what I have said you would recognize that I have equated the un-Christian public attacks on an individual, on a matter that was never the central focus of the criticism of 3-ABN in the beginning, with abandoning a high moral purpose.  It reflects a spirit of the "end justifies the means," and "We will get them in any way that we can."

I do not doubt that you could find someting to criticize in every person  associated with 3-ABN.  What would you accomplish by doing so?  What has been accomplished by this public criticism of WP?  The people  reading this thread and who agree with you, can do nothing to effect any change in WP and/or his relationship to the SDA Chruch and/or the charity that he founded.  If they want to effect a change in his relationship to the SDA Chruch, as you well know, there is another way to go about it.  They might fail in that method.  But, they would have done their duty as they have seen it.  They have chosen to go a public route that has no potential to effect any change.  The only thing that is accomplished here is to publicly smear his good name and reputation.  This thread is not, in my opinion, the work of  Christ.
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Maxey

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #206 on: August 19, 2008, 06:46:28 AM »

5) This thread is an example of why I say that while certain critics of 3-ABN began with a high moral purpose, some of those critics have abandoned the high moral purpose that they once had.

Discussing the importance of Sabbath keeping and abstaining from the appearance of evil is abandoning a high moral purpose? Sounds like a stretch.

Bob, discussion of the importance of Sabbath can be a very moral thing to do.  On that topic, I would much rather hear about your joy in the Sabbath then how miserably you feel others are failing in their observance.

What is abandoning the high moral purpose is character assassination.  That was the purpose of this thread and anyone with a brain can see that.  People are tuning out…
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #207 on: August 19, 2008, 06:58:06 AM »


Discussing the importance of Sabbath keeping and abstaining from the appearance of evil is abandoning a high moral purpose? Sounds like a stretch.

Bob, the above is an example of why there are some who accuse you of twisting statements into something that they are not.

Unwarranted. You did not clarify your meaning, so really such folks should be more charitable and less ready to pass judgment.

If you had even a minimal  understanding of what I have said you would recognize that I have equated the un-Christian public attacks on an individual ....

What specifically in this thread do you consider to be an unchristian attack?

There was a publicly advertised concert for a fund raiser for an educational program. (Is the program secular or religious in nature?) One of the two concerts was held on Sabbath, and tickets could be bought at the door. A Seventh-day Adventist minister who happens to be a 3ABN Board member conducted the concert. Whether one could say he was hired to conduct the concert, I'm not sure. Someone has had concerns about it all and has posted those concerns.

In what way is someone expressing their concerns about a public event an unchristian attack?
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #208 on: August 19, 2008, 07:00:14 AM »

What is abandoning the high moral purpose is character assassination.  That was the purpose of this thread and anyone with a brain can see that.

Well, I don't see it.

Someone could use the same logic and say that the criticisms Gregory has posted since all this began were but attempts to assassinate the character of Danny Shelton, not concerns over Danny's conduct. But that's nonsense.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #209 on: August 19, 2008, 07:21:17 AM »

What is abandoning the high moral purpose is character assassination.  That was the purpose of this thread and anyone with a brain can see that.

Maxey,

I'd be interested in knowing where you draw the line on such things.

  • Was speaking out about concerns about the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations character assassination?
  • Was speaking out against Danny Shelton's cover up of those child molestation allegations character assassination?
  • Was speaking out against Danny Shelton allowing his ex-step-daughter's allegations of sexual assault to be called a lie on global television character assassination?
  • Was speaking out against Danny Shelton's unbiblical divorce character assassination?
  • Was speaking out against Danny Shelton's 1998 real estate deal character assassination?

I'd like to hear more from you regarding your criteria for determining what is character assassination and what is not. It's not like determining that on October 2, 1998, Danny Shelton sold his house for $135,000, a house he paid $6,139 for just one week before. That's a matter of public record and is an objective fact. But I suspect we are talking about something subjective here, and would like to hear more from you regarding the criteria you use.
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