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Author Topic: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath  (Read 193976 times)

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SDAminister

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #180 on: August 17, 2008, 10:41:57 PM »

"Traveling on the Sabbath

"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)

Bob, this is an interesting EGW quote for you to bring up in this particular thread.  Perhaps SDAminister hadn't run across this one in his studies before he started this thread to regretfully try to sully the reputation of Pastor Wintley Phipps due to his seat on the 3abn BOD.

GrandmaNettie,
...and perhaps SDAminister had run across this one in his studies.

Let's reestablish a few facts:
-Elder Phipps was not traveling to an SDA church to give a Sabbath message
-The purpose of Elder Phipps trip was to raise money for his business/charity---US Dream Academy. See the motive? Not Sabbath truth, but money for Dream Academy.
-Since Elder Phipps has stated, according to others on this forum, that he is a full time employee of the Dream Academy, why didn't he travel to his destination on the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday preceding his concert? You know, the days of the week that he works for the Dream Academy. As you so eloquently quoted, "When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath". Elder Phipps appears to have failed to do what you suggested he do. Instead, he skipped the service at his own church Sabbath morning and took a mid-day Sabbath flight across country to perform at a for-profit concert.

SDAminister
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SDAminister

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #181 on: August 17, 2008, 10:51:52 PM »

SDAminister, did you check to see when Pastor Phipps' commercial airline ticket was purchased?  What if he used frequent flyer miles, and those, say, on a Tuesday to purchase his ticket?
I did check. Did you? What did you find out? Please let us all know. I hate to be the only source of info on this.
SDAminister
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SDAminister

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #182 on: August 17, 2008, 11:31:32 PM »

He most assuredly was bringing those who attended that fundraiser for The Dream Academy "the message that God desires them to hear".  He wasn't selling new or used mules, he was faithfully using his God-given talent as a speaker and singer to bring the gospel to a group who wished to support his essential work to children of prisoners.

GrandmaNettie,
Thank you for noting that this was a fundraiser. Is that what God had in mind as a way to help people--to hold fundraisers for them on the Sabbath?

I had not wanted to really invoke the Spirit of Prophecy on this issue, due to the fact that many have little faith in it. But thanks GrandmaNettie for bringing her in! Her counsel is invaluable.
"When money is raised for religious purposes, to what means do many churches resort? To bazaars, suppers, fancy fairs, even to lotteries and like devices. Often the place set apart for God's worship is desecrated by feasting and drinking, buying, selling, and merrymaking. Respect for the house of God and reverence for His worship are lessened in the minds of the youth. The barriers of self-restraint are weakened. Selfishness, appetite, the love of display, are appealed to, and they strengthen as they are indulged.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 91."

So, which way is it? God frowns upon selling things to raise money for religious purposes. So, if the Dream Academy is a "religious purpose", they are contravening the command of God. And, if it is not a religious purpose, then Dream Academy's purpose is secular, and there can't be any fund raising of it on the Sabbath because that would break the fourth commandment. NOBODY thinks that secular business should be done on the Sabbath. It's a tight corner you've put Elder Phipps into GrandmaNettie!

SDAminister
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irspro

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #183 on: August 18, 2008, 04:47:18 AM »

He most assuredly was bringing those who attended that fundraiser for The Dream Academy "the message that God desires them to hear".  He wasn't selling new or used mules, he was faithfully using his God-given talent as a speaker and singer to bring the gospel to a group who wished to support his essential work to children of prisoners.

GrandmaNettie,
Thank you for noting that this was a fundraiser. Is that what God had in mind as a way to help people--to hold fundraisers for them on the Sabbath?

I had not wanted to really invoke the Spirit of Prophecy on this issue, due to the fact that many have little faith in it. But thanks GrandmaNettie for bringing her in! Her counsel is invaluable.
"When money is raised for religious purposes, to what means do many churches resort? To bazaars, suppers, fancy fairs, even to lotteries and like devices. Often the place set apart for God's worship is desecrated by feasting and drinking, buying, selling, and merrymaking. Respect for the house of God and reverence for His worship are lessened in the minds of the youth. The barriers of self-restraint are weakened. Selfishness, appetite, the love of display, are appealed to, and they strengthen as they are indulged.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 91."

So, which way is it? God frowns upon selling things to raise money for religious purposes. So, if the Dream Academy is a "religious purpose", they are contravening the command of God. And, if it is not a religious purpose, then Dream Academy's purpose is secular, and there can't be any fund raising of it on the Sabbath because that would break the fourth commandment. NOBODY thinks that secular business should be done on the Sabbath. It's a tight corner you've put Elder Phipps into GrandmaNettie!


SDAminister:

"It's a tight corner you've put Elder Phipps into GrandmaNettie!"

I personally have no problem with your comments thusfar; however, let me encourage you along the path where I found my teaching assignments have paid greater dividends to my students and consequently to me personally.

The ability to teach a subject by supporting the theory being taught with positive practical application comes easier and retained for longer periods by the student.  I was highly encouraged by one of the local universities to take a teaching assignment after a previous request.  I had the opportunity to meet with one of my former students whose subsequent progress I may not have adequately monitored for instant recall.  The student had to jog my memory, only slightly, when I queried what was his opinion of my teaching methods.  He didn't delve into my teaching methods with his averment, "I am also both a licensed attorney and cpa just like you."  I had many occasions to teach classes for employees, including group managers, where even group managers complimented on practical applications of the law. 

I invited problems being experienced by other revenue agents needing some help.  One of the good Andrews MDivs was in my large case group where he seemed to enjoy arguing religion more than tax laws which I could understand he really didn't appreciate since he wasn't able to get the benefits of the tax law pertaining to parsonages of clergy.  He could bore you to tears with his second and third reiterations of theory rather just a few examples.  That brother saw me strictly as an advesary where he never sought my help.  Management kept their eyes on me for employee assistance and promotional recommendations.  I had a number of opportunities for both which included a promotion recommendation of this good brother; however, I prefaced my recommendation as one of promotion to a less serious problem from a more serious. I was solicited by management to review workpapers of marginal agents where I explained to management that the agent spent more time explaining what they didn't find than what they did, not unusual.

It has been known to have some standing in line with their workpapers for help.  Many thought they were auditing tax returns where I explained that auditing taxpayers around tax returns was more successful since I found very few numerical errors prepared from the books.  I didn't waste my time making 100,000 copies for even the most complicated taxpayer with 107 corporations in a consoldiated Form 1120 where I finished a successful audit for a substantial agreed deficiency in much less than 9 months without any assistance and I learned a lot about the movie industry including drive-in theatres and commercial broadcasting.

I notice getting worddy can become boring so I'll end with teaching the blessings of the Sabbath does not include an example of  a cross-country flight at 35,000' suffering from air-pockets, stormy weather, and cramped conditions no matter how long and well I could sing.  Just heard of a local case of teen pregnancy where a very caring soul furnished academy tuition and mission trips in a family beset by the same.  Did somebody drop the ball with teaching the examples of "The Father of the Faithful" and "The Man After God's Own Heart?"
 
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Artiste

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #184 on: August 18, 2008, 05:38:29 AM »

"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land..."

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irspro

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #185 on: August 18, 2008, 06:19:54 AM »

"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land..."



Artiste, thanks for not being too wordy with one of the best sermons that our Maker designed for both our joy and protection from ourselves.  The length of the sermon would leave us time enough to sing "Lift Up The Trumpet". have a prayer for a Sabbath blessing, and go out to study the creation whereby perpetuity was designed in blackberries where even briars alternate between blooming and leafing-out first for a statistical advantage of avoiding freezes.

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GrandmaNettie

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #186 on: August 18, 2008, 06:38:51 AM »

"Traveling on the Sabbath

"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)

Bob, this is an interesting EGW quote for you to bring up in this particular thread.  Perhaps SDAminister hadn't run across this one in his studies before he started this thread to regretfully try to sully the reputation of Pastor Wintley Phipps due to his seat on the 3abn BOD.



GrandmaNettie,
...and perhaps SDAminister had run across this one in his studies.

Let's reestablish a few facts:
-Elder Phipps was not traveling to an SDA church to give a Sabbath message

So?  It would make it all better if his destination was an SDA church?  The quote that Bob used as supporting material for his argument stated "in order to reach the churches that need our help".  It did not specify SDA churches.

-The purpose of Elder Phipps trip was to raise money for his business/charity---US Dream Academy. See the motive? Not Sabbath truth, but money for Dream Academy.

US Dream Academy is his ministry.  The man who organized the fundraiser did so to  raise and donate the funds to Wintley Phipps' ministry.  God's message to this world is not only "Sabbath truth", it is everlasting life for those who believe in Him.  See John 3.

-Since Elder Phipps has stated, according to others on this forum, that he is a full time employee of the Dream Academy, why didn't he travel to his destination on the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday preceding his concert? You know, the days of the week that he works for the Dream Academy. As you so eloquently quoted, "When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath". Elder Phipps appears to have failed to do what you suggested he do. Instead, he skipped the service at his own church Sabbath morning and took a mid-day Sabbath flight across country to perform at a for-profit concert.

SDAminister

Few will buy your feeble attempt to attribute the words of the EGW statement from Bob's post as me suggesting anything to Pastor Wintley Phipps.  I'm certain that some will be flattered that you tried, though.

You might want to check with an accountant to determine if that event was actually a "for-profit concert" or if, perhaps, you have mispoken. 

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GrandmaNettie

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #187 on: August 18, 2008, 06:45:15 AM »

SDAminister, did you check to see when Pastor Phipps' commercial airline ticket was purchased?  What if he used frequent flyer miles, and those, say, on a Tuesday to purchase his ticket?
I did check. Did you? What did you find out? Please let us all know. I hate to be the only source of info on this.
SDAminister

I have little doubt that if you checked and found that Pastor Wintley Phipps had purchased his commercial airline ticket on Sabbath, you would have trumpeted that in your OP.
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GrandmaNettie

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #188 on: August 18, 2008, 07:13:13 AM »

He most assuredly was bringing those who attended that fundraiser for The Dream Academy "the message that God desires them to hear".  He wasn't selling new or used mules, he was faithfully using his God-given talent as a speaker and singer to bring the gospel to a group who wished to support his essential work to children of prisoners.

GrandmaNettie,
Thank you for noting that this was a fundraiser. Is that what God had in mind as a way to help people--to hold fundraisers for them on the Sabbath?

I had not wanted to really invoke the Spirit of Prophecy on this issue, due to the fact that many have little faith in it. But thanks GrandmaNettie for bringing her in! Her counsel is invaluable.
"When money is raised for religious purposes, to what means do many churches resort? To bazaars, suppers, fancy fairs, even to lotteries and like devices. Often the place set apart for God's worship is desecrated by feasting and drinking, buying, selling, and merrymaking. Respect for the house of God and reverence for His worship are lessened in the minds of the youth. The barriers of self-restraint are weakened. Selfishness, appetite, the love of display, are appealed to, and they strengthen as they are indulged.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 91."

So, which way is it? God frowns upon selling things to raise money for religious purposes. So, if the Dream Academy is a "religious purpose", they are contravening the command of God. And, if it is not a religious purpose, then Dream Academy's purpose is secular, and there can't be any fund raising of it on the Sabbath because that would break the fourth commandment. NOBODY thinks that secular business should be done on the Sabbath. It's a tight corner you've put Elder Phipps into GrandmaNettie!

SDAminister


When did US Dream Academy change from a not-for-profit ministry into a church?  Oh, when you wanted to condemn it with the words of EGW.  Yet for all your stretching and twisting, this statement remains out of context for your intended application.

However, since you invoked it, what does God "frown on" in the statement you supplied?  Raising money for religious purposes?  I don't think so.  Read it a little more carefully.

As much as you attempt to spin and contort the words of others, any supposed "tight corner" is of your own devising and purely imaginary.

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SDAminister

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #189 on: August 18, 2008, 07:31:59 AM »

SDAminister, did you check to see when Pastor Phipps' commercial airline ticket was purchased?  What if he used frequent flyer miles, and those, say, on a Tuesday to purchase his ticket?
I did check. Did you? What did you find out? Please let us all know. I hate to be the only source of info on this.
SDAminister

I have little doubt that if you checked and found that Pastor Wintley Phipps had purchased his commercial airline ticket on Sabbath, you would have trumpeted that in your OP.

I never made it an issue of how or when Elder Phipps purchased his ticket---you did. My issue was the unnecessary Sabbath travel. BTW, I do know how he came by his ticket. Again, what did you find out when you checked? Or, have you checked? Would you like some phone numbers to help out?
SDAminister
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bonnie

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #190 on: August 18, 2008, 07:39:15 AM »

SDAminister, did you check to see when Pastor Phipps' commercial airline ticket was purchased?  What if he used frequent flyer miles, and those, say, on a Tuesday to purchase his ticket?
I did check. Did you? What did you find out? Please let us all know. I hate to be the only source of info on this.
SDAminister

I have little doubt that if you checked and found that Pastor Wintley Phipps had purchased his commercial airline ticket on Sabbath, you would have trumpeted that in your OP.

I never made it an issue of how or when Elder Phipps purchased his ticket---you did. My issue was the unnecessary Sabbath travel. BTW, I do know how he came by his ticket. Again, what did you find out when you checked? Or, have you checked? Would you like some phone numbers to help out?
SDAminister

It seems to me that the bible has a story about a group that obeyed the sabbath, added restraints on activity,and yet was condemnd by Christ
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #191 on: August 18, 2008, 07:53:43 AM »

It seems to me that the bible has a story about a group that obeyed the sabbath, added restraints on activity,and yet was condemnd by Christ

They added restraints that God had not given. That was a problem.
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bonnie

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #192 on: August 18, 2008, 08:02:47 AM »

It seems to me that the bible has a story about a group that obeyed the sabbath, added restraints on activity,and yet was condemnd by Christ

They added restraints that God had not given. That was a problem.

Bob,

What is it you hope to accomplish between you and "SDAminister"
Shall we see if we can cause the removal of his ministerial credentials?? Add it to the list complaints against 3ABN??
Boycott the next performance of this pastor?? What??

Take it to his conference and maybe get on MN conference to stop any performaces in MN.
If you can't get much by way of traction with "allegations" that have been made concerning TS, what on earth  leads you to believe this is anything more than a big yawn?

At the least voice your displeasure to the conference president of this pastor. You are only eroding the base of support you still had

Bonnie
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SDAminister

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #193 on: August 18, 2008, 08:32:29 AM »

So?  It would make it all better if his destination was an SDA church?  The quote that Bob used as supporting material for his argument stated "in order to reach the churches that need our help".  It did not specify SDA churches.

Of course not. But your comments indicated that you thought the EGW quote was valid. Everybody knows Elder Phipps was not at an SDA church that day. Bob Pickle was more referring to the quote for its clarity on the avoidance of Sabbath travel.

US Dream Academy is his ministry.  The man who organized the fundraiser did so to  raise and donate the funds to Wintley Phipps' ministry.  God's message to this world is not only "Sabbath truth", it is everlasting life for those who believe in Him.  See John 3.

That's some ministry. Can you think of any other SDA ministries that pay over $130,000 in salary to its presidents? His ministry is to provide educational services. So, if my ministry is to help the elderly, can I sell melons on the Sabbath as long as I give the money to the elderly? There is no difference between this and what Elder Phipps did. It meets no test of Sabbath truth. Just putting the word "ministry" in front of one's business does not allow for Sabbath business transactions. 

Sadly, in the US, most SDA's don't care one way or the other about such things. But if Elder Phipps were to continually do such a thing in some of the countries I have worked in, he would set back the work by years. Do you know how many SDA's are in prison now or who lost their jobs because they would not do what Elder Phipps boldly does? I don't know the number. God does.

You might want to check with an accountant to determine if that event was actually a "for-profit concert" or if, perhaps, you have mispoken. 

A business transaction occurred (Concert tickets were bought and sold). The proceeds from the tickets profited the US Dream Academy. They profited from this business transaction. I did not misspeak.
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SDAminister

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Re: 3ABN Board Member Breaks Sabbath
« Reply #194 on: August 18, 2008, 08:40:50 AM »

It seems to me that the bible has a story about a group that obeyed the sabbath, added restraints on activity,and yet was condemnd by Christ

They added restraints that God had not given. That was a problem.

Bob,

What is it you hope to accomplish between you and "SDAminister"
Shall we see if we can cause the removal of his ministerial credentials?? Add it to the list complaints against 3ABN??
Boycott the next performance of this pastor?? What??

Take it to his conference and maybe get on MN conference to stop any performaces in MN.
If you can't get much by way of traction with "allegations" that have been made concerning TS, what on earth  leads you to believe this is anything more than a big yawn?

At the least voice your displeasure to the conference president of this pastor. You are only eroding the base of support you still had

Bonnie

Bonnie,
For-what-it's-worth, I have already spoken at length with my conference president about this issue. He is not amused by what Elder Phipps did.

SDAminister
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