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[Habanero]

Right now there is a program on National Geographic channel about an Adventist cult. There was a young lady talking about the spiritual beauty of laying naked with cult leader, Michael Travesser, and how the love of God came through to her through that.

People will believe whatever works for them.

[Sister]

Right now there is a program on National Geographic channel about an Adventist cult. There was a young lady talking about the spiritual beauty of laying naked with cult leader, Michael Travesser, and how the love of God came through to her through that.

People will believe whatever works for them.

If you are not aware of who Habanero is talking about, here is a link to more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Our_Righteousness_Church

[GrandmaNettie]

Right now there is a program on National Geographic channel about an Adventist cult. There was a young lady talking about the spiritual beauty of laying naked with cult leader, Michael Travesser, and how the love of God came through to her through that.

People will believe whatever works for them.

I've seen that program.  I wouldn't call Michael and his followers an "Adventist" cult.  He and his son are former Adventists.  It was really sad to see Michael Travesser's son standing there as his father speaks of having relations with his son's new wife.  It's amazing what some will allow those they see as their leader get away with, how they will set aside common sense to rationalize such outrageous behavior as lying naked with minor children and controlling the marriage relations of those who follow them.  

Two of the things that struck me was the giddiness in the denial expressed by young followers and the devout posture and personal blankness of the women who had given their souls to this man.

Yes, people will believe whatever works for them.

[irspro]

Beware lest my avoidance of the very appearance of evil appear as nothing more than self-justification en masse!

Maybe I need to spend a little time in contemplation of getting my mind around justification of getting the ox out of the ditch in those instances where I didn't cultivate foresight of the ox's avoidance of the ditch.

Charity begins at home; however, it doesn't include self-justification.


This tax assessor, not tax collector, ie publican, remembers the very successful business man of yonderyear with a very diversified business model.  This business model was an unusually profitable GM dealership in such a small town while being able to manipulate a segment built around oxen, yes oxen, in this jet-age that allows you to push the envelope as your neighbor see it coupled with the habitual need of getting the ox out of the ditch.

The taxpayer didn't necessarily remember me for my stance on religious theory even though he knew my community and church through a partner in the mule business; however, I wasn't there so much for theory but practice.  The taxpayer remembered me as the nature of my adjustments long after my recommendation of a substantial deficiency in tax by signing an agreement, Form 870.  I remembered too his successful business model of motorized products needed by the Department of Corrections statewide coupled with being a member of the state board for that industry.

The taxpayer's supplemental business model was oxen he kept in the ditch to harvest timber from boggy terrain that could not be accomplished as easily with motorized equipment. Think before you act with your ox and the ditch!  Is it just easier in this life while it may not be the most profitable in the long run.

I sit here with the full realization that my understanding of stewarship should not include allowing church members to donate labor on building my house if I didn't use my own labor for which I was paid to include more than an occasional preaching session!  I hereby intentionally avoid the use proper names!

[Bob Pickle]

"Traveling on the Sabbath

"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)

You bring up a question I have struggle with for many years now, Chrissie.

I grew up in a very conservative SDA family.  I am very blessed, and I don't want this post to be misconstrued as complaining!  But I have never quite understood this mentality, whereby as long as one purchases their tickets to an event or for travel or whatever, prior to the Sabbath hours that all is OK.  I am NOT finding fault with those who think that way, please understand.  But I just don't get it.  The Fourth Commandment tells us not to do any work on the Sabbath - not only us, but our sons, daughters, manservants, maidservants, our animals...even the stranger within our gates.  It doesn't say "thou shalt not transact money on the Sabbath" or that "as long as you pay for something ahead of time it doesn't matter if someone else has to work during the Sabbath hours to make it happen".  Regardless of when I might pay for something like an airline ticket or even going to the zoo, it doesn't change the fact that someone else (ie, "the stranger within my gates") has to work to provide me that service.  In the zoo example, obviously someone has to care for the animals over the Sabbath (an "essential" service) just like hospital staff, but just because I might have bought my ticket on Thursday, a zoo employee still has to be there to accept my ticket and let me in to the grounds.  Aren't they working?  And regardless of when a commercial airline ticket is purchased, if the flight takes place on Sabbath aren't the "strangers within my gates" working to provide me a service?  This continues to puzzle me...

[Bob Pickle]

3) This has nothing to do with anyone in particular being a vanguard for Adventism. We have a right as members of our church to voice our concerns about some too-powerful, unaccountable fellow bringing disrepute upon our faith. And John Lomacang ought to do his job and call him to account in a church business meeting.

I think it would be far more appropriate for the pastor in Gailon's home church, rather than Pastor John Lomacang, to call this unaccountable fellow to account for bringing disrepute upon our faith.

It would be grossly out of line for Gailon's home church to discipline Danny Shelton. They have no authority to do so, and I think you know that.

If 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private inurement, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.

Bob, give people of the world who view 3abn a little more credit for having the ability to observe, think and draw their own conclusions.

I have had an individual here refer to 3ABN as a Seventh-day Adventist channel. What right does 3ABN have to come into this territory and broadcast a tribute to an alleged pedophile without protest, allowing themselves to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist channel?

[bonnie]

If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)

Where in the above does it say that Bob Pickle has the right, duty, and obligation to dog the steps of anyone to see if they are observing the sabbath correctly?
This kind of stuff is fast eroding any credibility you had or will have.
 

 

,

[bonnie]

It would be grossly out of line for Gailon's home church to discipline Danny Shelton. They have no authority to do so, and I think you know that.

I am not quite sure, but I don't think there was a call to have Gailon's home church discipline this pastor.

I have had an individual here refer to 3ABN as a Seventh-day Adventist channel. What right does 3ABN have to come into this territory and broadcast a tribute to an alleged pedophile without protest, allowing themselves to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist channel?

You have protested, I believe at length and in years. You have no control over those they decide to give a tribute to.
The whole sexual allegations has a bad smell, but what are you going to do about it. These are not all consuming issues to many in the SDA chuirch or our leadership. What people refer to them as really is nothing you can do anything about. Period. You have voiced your disapprovable and you are still standing in the same place.
I think the accountibility of 3ABN and DS rises to a higher standard than the member in the pew. 
Now what is it you would like me or others to do.
Stop watching and supporting 3ABN?? I would guess that within the circle of members that believe somethingis wrong at 3ABN have already done that. Now what?

[Bob Pickle]

If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)

Where in the above does it say that Bob Pickle has the right, duty, and obligation to dog the steps of anyone to see if they are observing the sabbath correctly?
This kind of stuff is fast eroding any credibility you had or will have.
 

 

,

Perhaps your accusations are fast eroding your credibility? Why would you turn around an answer to Snoopy's question into a personal attack against the one who responded to her question?

[Bob Pickle]

It would be grossly out of line for Gailon's home church to discipline Danny Shelton. They have no authority to do so, and I think you know that.

I am not quite sure, but I don't think there was a call to have Gailon's home church discipline this pastor.

I believe GN knew that I was referring to Danny in my comment, and thus I was applying what she wrote to whom I believe she knew I was writing about.

I have had an individual here refer to 3ABN as a Seventh-day Adventist channel. What right does 3ABN have to come into this territory and broadcast a tribute to an alleged pedophile without protest, allowing themselves to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist channel?

You have protested, I believe at length and in years. You have no control over those they decide to give a tribute to.
[/quote]

Never said I did. But I can voice my disapproval.

The whole sexual allegations has a bad smell, but what are you going to do about it. These are not all consuming issues to many in the SDA chuirch or our leadership.

I'm sure there are a lot of church leaders who do care about such issues. Feel free to issue a poll and then tell us what percentage don't care.

[bonnie]

Bob,
Let me share a little story with you and maybe you can grasp better where I am coming from.

My brother used to drive for our local conference. One very high up in the conference cheated him out of a much needed amount of money.
This same man had been guest speaker at our church. The topic was temperance with a lot of "Thou Shalt Not's" concerning what we could eat.
I will give the guy credit, was a incredible speaker. You almost wanted to run home and get rid of the evils in your kitchen.

The Mon following that sabbath my brother took me to lunch. It was poor timing where the conference elite were concerned.
 As we were waiting for the hostess to seat us, who should be a few short tables away. Imagine our surprise when we saw our recent guest speaker at a table with others, On that table was a full pot of coffee,on the plate biggest surprise of all. a remains of hefty sized T-Bone. Followed by a very yummy good looking cream pie with lots of cream,and I might add a very red face,with difficulty looking us in the eye.


What his eating habits are now I have no idea ,I do know he has never attempted to make that financial dealing straight. Obviously had he, my brother would have told me. He is still a highly(undeservingly so IMO) respected and well known denominational leader.

This and his actions was as wrong as it could be,has never been made right,yet some people think he is the greatest since Moses.
With what I know for a fact and has not been made right, do I continue to dog this man's steps or accept the fact that I do not control his life or what he really is?
I can go from church to church,or forum to forum and keep repeating this and then what?

[bonnie]

I'm sure there are a lot of church leaders who do care about such issues. Feel free to issue a poll and then tell us what percentage don't care.

You are not even making sense with this. I am quite sure the numbers would be at 100%. Makes no difference. Lip service to caring is not the same as "caring"



You have voiced your disapproval, How Many times now? Abd exactly what impact has it had?

edited to add


What you are doing tho is calling attention to the fact that most do not care. Your repeated drawing attention to this has not brought people in droves to your bandwagon

[GrandmaNettie]

"Traveling on the Sabbath

"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)

Bob, this is an interesting EGW quote for you to bring up in this particular thread.  Perhaps SDAminister hadn't run across this one in his studies before he started this thread to regretfully try to sully the reputation of Pastor Wintley Phipps due to his seat on the 3abn BOD.

Setting aside Gailon's assertion that that Pastor Wintley Phipps' work is not essential (I strongly beg to differ), it appears that Sister White felt there were loopholes for travel on Sabbath.  If the tickets were purchased on some other day, it would be acceptable for us to have others work on our behalf.  Are there EGW quotes that deal with using an electrical alarm to wake us up Sabbath morning, or flipping a light switch or heating up our food in the microwave on the Sabbath, thereby having the electical company workers maintaining that service on our behalf?  And how about the more modern issue of flushing a toilet on the Sabbath?  Certainly you can see that this causes the water works workers to work on our behalf?

SDAminister, did you check to see when Pastor Phipps' commercial airline ticket was purchased?  What if he used frequent flyer miles, and those, say, on a Tuesday to purchase his ticket?

Bob, I expect you might claim that this passage does not apply to Pastor Phipps  because he was not traveling "to reach the churches that need our help".  If you do, I believe that is debatable.  He most assuredly was bringing those who attended that fundraiser for The Dream Academy "the message that God desires them to hear".  He wasn't selling new or used mules, he was faithfully using his God-given talent as a speaker and singer to bring the gospel to a group who wished to support his essential work to children of prisoners.

[GrandmaNettie]

3) This has nothing to do with anyone in particular being a vanguard for Adventism. We have a right as members of our church to voice our concerns about some too-powerful, unaccountable fellow bringing disrepute upon our faith. And John Lomacang ought to do his job and call him to account in a church business meeting.

I think it would be far more appropriate for the pastor in Gailon's home church, rather than Pastor John Lomacang, to call this unaccountable fellow to account for bringing disrepute upon our faith.

It would be grossly out of line for Gailon's home church to discipline Danny Shelton. They have no authority to do so, and I think you know that.

I voiced my concern as a member of this church.  While I was fully aware that you were referring to Danny Shelton, your description could well be applied to Gailon and sometimes even you.

I agree with Bonnie that you and Gailon have attempted to set yourselves up as vanguards of adventism, specifically conservative adventism, but you have both crossed the line in how you have put that into action.  Does Gailon's pastor realize what he is saying and doing?  Has his pastor seen the manner in which he treats other members of this denomination?

If 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private inurement, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.

Bob, give people of the world who view 3abn a little more credit for having the ability to observe, think and draw their own conclusions.

I have had an individual here refer to 3ABN as a Seventh-day Adventist channel. What right does 3ABN have to come into this territory and broadcast a tribute to an alleged pedophile without protest, allowing themselves to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist channel?

You have gone to great lengths to protest.  How is that working for you?  Is the individual who referred to 3abn as a Seventh-day Adventist channel now clear that 3abn is a private ministry that carries much programming that is in line with the SDA denomination?  Or have you helped the individual, and others who might be under the same impression, stop watching the programming 3abn is broadcasting in that territory because of the alleged sins of some of those in leadership?

It was my viewing of 3abn as I cared for my aged grandmother that was partly responsible for my return to active membership within this denomination.  The presentations in some of the programming drove me to my Bible to begin studying for myself to see if these things were so.  I am quite certain that I am not alone in this regard. 

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

3) This has nothing to do with anyone in particular being a vanguard for Adventism. We have a right as members of our church to voice our concerns about some too-powerful, unaccountable fellow bringing disrepute upon our faith. And John Lomacang ought to do his job and call him to account in a church business meeting.

I think it would be far more appropriate for the pastor in Gailon's home church, rather than Pastor John Lomacang, to call this unaccountable fellow to account for bringing disrepute upon our faith.

It would be grossly out of line for Gailon's home church to discipline Danny Shelton. They have no authority to do so, and I think you know that.

I voiced my concern as a member of this church.  While I was fully aware that you were referring to Danny Shelton, your description could well be applied to Gailon and sometimes even you.

I agree with Bonnie that you and Gailon have attempted to set yourselves up as vanguards of adventism, specifically conservative adventism, but you have both crossed the line in how you have put that into action.  Does Gailon's pastor realize what he is saying and doing?  Has his pastor seen the manner in which he treats other members of this denomination?

If 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private inurement, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.

Bob, give people of the world who view 3abn a little more credit for having the ability to observe, think and draw their own conclusions.

I have had an individual here refer to 3ABN as a Seventh-day Adventist channel. What right does 3ABN have to come into this territory and broadcast a tribute to an alleged pedophile without protest, allowing themselves to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist channel?

You have gone to great lengths to protest.  How is that working for you?  Is the individual who referred to 3abn as a Seventh-day Adventist channel now clear that 3abn is a private ministry that carries much programming that is in line with the SDA denomination?  Or have you helped the individual, and others who might be under the same impression, stop watching the programming 3abn is broadcasting in that territory because of the alleged sins of some of those in leadership?

It was my viewing of 3abn as I cared for my aged grandmother that was partly responsible for my return to active membership within this denomination.  The presentations in some of the programming drove me to my Bible to begin studying for myself to see if these things were so.  I am quite certain that I am not alone in this regard. 

May I suggest  to file a complaint immediately and I will agree to an open Business Meeting to address your concerns.

Gailon Arthur Joy