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[bonnie]

Twice you've said that you don't care. And nearly every other post in this topic is by you. Are you sure you don't care? Nothing wrong with that mind you. 

SDAminister

Let me tell you again and see if you can understand where I am coming from.

I do not care what this pastor did for this program. I can do absolutely nothing about it. Period. I know nothing about it except what was posted here. The post kind of went up the scale of my radar with the beginnig words.

"It is with regret"
First I don't believe it was with regret. Can I prove that No. I believe it was with a great deal of relish that this man was spotted breaking the sabbath because of his tie to 3ABN.

Do I agree with what it sounds like, NO,Do I care,No.
Basically there is no reason to care as I can do nothing about it and am not convinced it is my job to ferret out every sabbath breaker.

Does it annoy me when I believe there are valid reasons for calling 3ABN to account and others are showing themselves to be on the same level of those wanting all hands off accounting of 3ABN. Yes.

Over the past week I have had some contact with those that feel that there are many clouds hanging over 3ABN,but are equally disturbed by those wanting to "clean up" the mess. Based on the way they see it being done.
Not regular posters here BTW.

In the eagerness to paint every breath, every act, every thought of those that have some kind of tie to 3ABN as evil much of the desire to see 3ABN change has been lost.

I hope and believe prior to courtdate that there are those that will come to their senses and settle this.

It matters little at this point if by some slim chance 3ABN loses,the impression that has been left by topics as this one being introduced is not serving the anti-DS crowd very well. It is also making it a lot easier for some to wash their hands of the whole sorry mess.

[bonnie]

Don't assume anything when you put out for public display any message, short of truth.  This warning is heightened when using proper names or specific references.  Even the truth may not save you from the filing of an action; however, it it your only defense, per se!

Couldn't agree more. See I am not all that moronic
Was cautioned on that by my son's very able attorney early on in my son's litigation.

edited for spelling correction

[Bob Pickle]

I don't suppose you'd be interested to know how many times over the past few years such "oversights in planning" have occurred?

SDAminister

I don't know how many times there has been an error in planning. Further more I really don't care. I believe this is because of the 3ABN and a tie to this pastor.

Of course it's because of 3ABN. If Elder Gilley started charging admission to hear his Sabbath sermons, wouldn't that hurt the work of 3ABN? Why is it any different with Elder Phipps? Or, do you agree that what Phipps did was wrong but you just believe that I handled it in the wrong way?

Query your specificity as to timing and manner.  It doesn't appear you are being challenged on the subject when some merely attempt to grab the steering wheel and blame the problem on others or change the direction of the discussion to more about "steering over by Sally's house" as I have oft heard.  It has been observed that blaming other for my errors is probably the most effective in "salving my conscience" next to "steering to less important conversation where interested participants may need to find a bit of intospection on their possible similar conduct.

My professional employment and practice worked best when I was able to determine the most facts in a minimum of yet reasonable amount of time before mental capacity was affefted by frustration.  This same success was accomplished in both of my examinations to gain professional status.  Keep in mind that frustrations can be caused by over planning rather than proper planning.  I have found that specific allegations need to be directly connected to the most direct valid proof available rather than peice-mealed where an audiance is likely to be diluted.

SDAminister, you appeared to lose support with being too specific with "appelations" and "travel scheule arrivals" before the "church member" comments you determined of "preaching schedules were associated with travel departures."  I find your final product or overall observations fairly reliable as I used many times in a tax audit where the taxpayer was so chagrined they stated they needed no further professional assistance in my determination of the  additional tax due.

A lot of practcal psychology was developed as I audited taxpayers while you may have thought I examined tax returns.  I soon found you learned more about what was done as well as what wasn't done with an informal atmosphere rather than allowing the taxpayer slip into an antagonistic frame of mind.  It doesn't hurt taxpayer's attitudes to know that the examiner is looked on more rigidly than the examined.  If you  "ass u me"  in an antagonistic environment, you are most likely to do "just that!

A practical example is presented to prove that it is better to let "actions" prove "alleged facts."  The President and sole shareholder of an asphalt paving corporation seemed proup to inform me that the general business model was to to have depend heavily on sub-contractors for an eleven month window while using the last two weeks of December and first two weeks of January for vacations and machine maintenance.   The President had no problem disclosing that he took an around-the-world tour during this four-week window.  All this information was disclosed in the first 15 minutes of our conversation while I mostly listened with an occasional query. 

During the hour's conversiation I was able to compliment on the successful business model he had developed as well as comment on the overall feeling of the public on taxation.  The President and accountant seemed pleased to present me with the corporate monthly general ledger.  In a matter of minutes, I was able to determine a cut-off problem with a December 20 of the prior year mailing of $1,500,000 contract receipt deposited on January 20 and reported that year.  With the greatest of ease, it was determined that the corporation deducted what appeared to be "an around the world trip potentially not reasonably associated with carrying on the asphalt business by the President.  A basic perusal of the corporate tax return noted a sizable credit for Non-Highway Use Fuel Tax.  The corporate books were unique with red-ink entries reducing a "fuel expense account" for fuel sold to sub-contractors which did not allow the corporation to deduct the credit coupled with the assessment of a 200% penalty.  I never discussed the merits of my audit until near the end of the audit so as not to impede cooperation and work flow.

This could easily be one of my last messages as none appeared to be interested in domestic relations, divorce, spiritual adultry, etc under this subject.

Absolutely fascinating! Wonder if you could audit a few folk ....

[Bob Pickle]

You know, I thought Fergus Falls was closed. Perhaps it would be interesting to drop by and see if I can visit him

The Adventist Church at Fergus Falls is called Pebble Lake.

[Bob Pickle]

Let's try to summarize the basic concern that apparently started this thread.

Danny Shelton has claimed over and over again that he started 3ABN to counteract the counterfeit, and to give the undiluted three angels' messages to all the world. I know of nowhere where he has publicly stated that he started 3ABN so that he could live in a large house with a large horse barn, and make several hundred thousand dollars in royalties concealed from his own board and ex-wife.

What folks would like to see is 3ABN return to the professed standards that it was allegedly founded upon. Gone with the self-exaltation. Gone with the pride. Gone with the cover up of allegations of vile sin.

If 3ABN is going to accomplish that objective, they do need to be careful about abstaining from the appearance of evil. Each member of 3ABN needs to be careful about that. And thus far, the only members are the directors, since 3ABN doesn't have a broad-based constituency.

So it would be wise if each 3ABN member not engage in commerce on the Sabbath, be wise stewards of God's funds, and follow the SoP counsel regarding remuneration.

[bonnie]

The Adventist Church at Fergus Falls is called Pebble Lake.

Bob, I was not searching for the name of the church. Somehow I didn't think that is what IRSPro had in mind.

Jumping to conclusions with moronic messages is esentially equivalent to "ass u me!"

 

 

The same preacher had formerly entered my home, somewhat uninvited, in one door and politely invited to exit through a different door.  The preacher declined my invitation to exit the nearest door and instead displayed in such an inordinate manner that he would only exit through the door he entered.  The preacher is now in an alleged disabled mental state west of the Mississippi River.  I hereby present a query of "superstitious conduct

Beware of independent ministries alleging new light and heightened morals supported by low education\wit!

I am not entirely sure but it would seem to me that with the comments in this and another post that IRSPro is familiar with our neck of the woods and was referring to the Fergus Falls mental hospital, straight west of the Mississippi river on I-94,  3 miles south of me .  He seems to be saying someone is of low education/wit,making moronic posts
and is in or should be in Fergus Falls Mental hospital.
 I don't think he was looking for the church and I was not. I know exactly how to get there.

[bonnie]

Let's try to summarize the basic concern that apparently started this thread.

Danny Shelton has claimed over and over again that he started 3ABN to counteract the counterfeit, and to give the undiluted three angels' messages to all the world. I know of nowhere where he has publicly stated that he started 3ABN so that he could live in a large house with a large horse barn, and make several hundred thousand dollars in royalties concealed from his own board and ex-wife.

What house he lives in, how big,what size the barn is really no one's business IF that comes as a result of living within his stated income.
On royalties, I have no idea if that ie legal or not.  If it is legal then again there is no law that says he can't.

Personally I don't care what size house he lives in if he can support that on 94.000.00 or whatever his salary is now.
The horses aren't a problem either as long as it can be done on that type of stated income. Personally, I know without money coming from other sources, it would be a tough go to set up and maintain that type of hobby.

The logistics of the donation of horses to another ministry would also be a bit tough. Sounds like the plans were changed when LS or whoever made the e-mails from DS known. So you can only conclude DS a private  equine business,separate from 3ABN ,donates at least two expensive horses to another ministry. From what I have been told, and that certainly could be wrong,Stephan Lewis did not live in close proximity to DS or 3ABN. It was another state. Someone had to arrange transportation, which is expensive by itself, and Stephan Lewis had to have a equine business ,profits going to a nonprofit ministry. DS would not have been able to donate and receive credit for the charitable giving unless it had been to a nonprofit.  So far ,of those that have contacted me, all claims are that there was nonequine business devoted to a ministry by Lewis. It would not have been at issue with the 3ABN audit as it has been stated it was a hobby.Nor would it raise any alarms in a personal audit if the books appear to be in order, meaning a appraised price of the horses and receipts showing that a Stephan Lewis received them in is nonprofit ministry. Besides if they do not go back that far in a personal audit it will never show

It seems a bit odd that that type of business would be under the umbrella of a ministry. That is not the type of donation always easily converted to cash. Most ministries would have to pay board as they do not have facilities for horses.
I do not believe the horse story,but that is up to others to go after, namely the IRS. Whether you like the results previously heralded from the rooftop or not, that is the only one that can do anything.

What folks would like to see is 3ABN return to the professed standards that it was allegedly founded upon. Gone with the . Gone with the pride. Gone with the cover up of allegations of vile sin.

But on the flip side you have those wanting to see business as usual at 3ABN,in the middle you have many getting more than a little disgusted by some of the behaviour. If you do not financially support 3ABN,if you do not sit on the board,you have nothing to say about how it operates, once you have made your problems with 3ABN clear to the board or whoever. Most people sitting in their homes reading this are so confused and disillusioned they do not care. Concerning covering up allegations leveled towards TS will get you nowhere. It is not recent enough,and that is not a topic that gets to many excited. I happen to believe Duane Clem and the others, so what???
Most will respond to that in the typical fashion we all love to use.  Those without sin, cast the first stone,Write their sins quietly in the sand, All have sinned

It will not cause more than a momentary flutter.

If 3ABN is going to accomplish that objective, they do need to be careful about abstaining from the appearance of evil. Each member of 3ABN needs to be careful about that. And thus far, the only members are the directors, since 3ABN doesn't have a broadband constituency.

Everyone needs to be careful of that and mighty few are. Those that defend DS consider him doing just that. Several of them do the same as goes on here with the defenders of Bob and Gailon. Don't look to long and to hard,accept from them what you would not from those that oppose you. Some kind of righteous indignation makes it acceptable for both sides to operate the very  same they get incensed over when done to them

So it would be wise if each 3ABN member not engage in commerce on the Sabbath, be wise stewards of God's funds, and follow the SOP counsel regarding remuneration.

Being wise is not a mandatory law. We should all be wise stewards of God's funds, however wise may mean something altogether different to me than you.

Turning so many against you because of what others see as pettiness,sarcasm and a real eagerness to draw blood is not wise in the eyes of many


 The SOP is not a mandatory law. Many disregard EW as anything from delusional to you name it. It is not something you can force thru this lawsuit. Doesn't matter who started it, much of this a judge will not even hear I don't think.

[Snoopy]

But on the flip side you have those wanting to see business as usual at 3ABN,in the middle you have many getting more than a little disgusted by some of the behaviour. If you do not financially support 3ABN,if you do not sit on the board,you have nothing to say about how it operates, once you have made your problems with 3ABN clear to the board or whoever. Most people sitting in their homes reading this are so confused and disillusioned they do not care. Concerning covering up allegations leveled towards TS will get you nowhere. It is not recent enough,and that is not a topic that gets to many excited. I happen to believe Duane Clem and the others, so what???

I am very curious to know how you can make this statement?  How in the world would you know what "most people" are thinking?

Turning so many against you because of what others see as pettiness,sarcasm and a real eagerness to draw blood is not wise in the eyes of many.

Again, how do you know what "many" are thinking?

The SOP is not a mandatory law. Many disregard EW as anything from delusional to you name it. It is not something you can force thru this lawsuit. Doesn't matter who started it, much of this a judge will not even hear I don't think.

Much of WHAT don't you think a judge will hear?  I don't think anyone involved is expecting the judge to utilize SoP in the case.  Is that what you are referring to?

[bonnie]

I am very curious to know how you can make this statement?  How in the world would you know what "most people" are thinking?

Sorry if my choice of words annoyed you. I will rephrase that. Most of the people I know that are familiar with  3ABN are not happy with what they see in those that they first championed .

Again, how do you know what "many" are thinking?

I didn't write down the number. Maybe we can use the word several

Much of WHAT don't you think a judge will hear?  I don't think anyone involved is expecting the judge to utilize SOP in the case.  Is that what you are referring to?

I don't think they care about morality, the divorce and remarriage,the IRS investigation,except to note it is cleared, if it has, and I believe it will. If the royalties are not illegal,no one will care about that either.
Basically it pretty well covers those items Bob outlined in his previous post.

[Echo]

Let's back up a little. I have said that it was wrong for Shelley Quinn and company to trash Alyssa Moore's statement about Danny's alleged sexual assault in global TV while claiming to not be defending themselves. I have definitely made statements like that.

Perhaps there have been times when I have addressed the Danny defenders' language and tone, but I don't recall.

I have stated that certain apologies should be made, and I have demonstrated that I am willing to do that myself.

Worshiping vipers? Yes, I think Gailon should not have said that.

I can go you one better. Gailon was wrong, there is no thinking or two ways about it.

Bonnie,

I do have disdain for those who pretend to look for truth and hobnob with those who support Linda but then secretly work at cross purposes.

I am surprised you did not take exception to Mahta Hari. That implication is clearer and more precise. One who works both sides to their advantage and purposes?

I have never asked anyone to appreciate or agree with my style of tackling issues and I have never complained that anyone filed suit against me. It is true that following the collapse of the ecclesiastical tribunal with ASI that I realized the only option was litigation. Our requests to meet with the board and explain our evidence and concerns has also been spurned. What other option was available as the battle ratcheted up and we met the bully pulpit of the Thursday 3ABNToday Live with a website? It was clear they would try to shut us down. Litigation was the only option...simple analysis. And I did indeed begin preparation to meet the threat head on.

It is also true that I do not fear or avoid litigation...if their is a battle to be fought, then I will fight it. I have made it clear that war has it's casualties. This is a war, a long protracted war that just happens to cross the paths of peace loving and submissive Seventh-day Adventists. I have never fit the mold and while born and bred an SDA I also was inculcated with the premise that if you meet goliath, in or out of the church, challenge him!!!

It is regretable that you find it so objectionable and I have long recognized that SDA's do not appreciate direct conflict and straight talk, clearly you included.

As to the banning of SAM, well I find it a great opportunity to ask questions of a person clearly very close to the seat of power...it is always great to see what the answers will be. A Good intelligence source lost, in my opinion. And frankly, your response was uncalled for. How is that for arrogance!!!

Rest assured, I am non-discriminating. If I do not agree with your view I let you know...I believe that is still constitutional.

On the other hand, I come from a background that allows vigorous debate and then shake hands, eat lunch together go away friends, something that SDA's find impossible.

GailonArthur Joy

Mr. Joy, I find this particular statement of yours very enlightening:
 

On the other hand, I come from a background that allows vigorous debate and then shake hands, eat lunch together go away friends, something that SDA's find impossible.

GailonArthur Joy

As I have observed your style of "vigorous debate" here and elsewhere, Mr. Joy, I would be more likely to classify it more as emotional abuse.  It is highly doubtful that any one of your targets, such as Bonnie, GrandmaNettie, Gregory Matthews, Sam, Ian or Danny Shelton, would be willing to enter into any post-"vigorous debate" honeymoon phase with you even if you were to add expensive flowers and chocolates to that handshake and upgrade the lunch to dinner in a 5-star restaurant.

[Ozzie]

This is another part of the story I do not buy........


With great regret that I am constrained to share the following info with the Advent Talk forum.

. 


I think it was with great delight instead of regret. About the only thing you left out was what they had for breakfast and what time.

I don't read 'any regret' here either Bonnie.

Sounded more to me like another 'Gotcha this time!'

Incidentally, have you never travelled on Sabbath? How do you get to Church? These days, travel can be a lot more complicated than just walking to Church - or hadn't anyone else noticed? 

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

I do have disdain for those who pretend to look for truth and hobnob with those who support Linda but then secretly work at cross purposes.

Just your explanation in the first sentence is skewed as far as I am concerned. Do you really have such a high opinion of yourself that those you have accused of being turncoats were actually deliberately hobnobbing with you. I don't think that you are that high on the scale. I could be wrong, have been before.
Because someone does not support what you wish, or from the first have had a clear and unchanging agenda you claim disdain. Perhaps you are having a problem because some have come to feel disdain for you
 

First, I am not a hob nobber!!! I have never hob nobbed with Grandma!!! I have never had the money to HOBNOB but rather fit the Hoi Poloi...keeps the conflicts of interest to a minimum. And that eliminates the retiscence of dealing with issues.

Second, I think I have made it clear that I have had a problem with this perpetual premise that Grandma is looking for the truth. The truth is staring her in the face and she still has no clarity. It is farsical. She knows the truth. SAM knows the truth. Many know the truth but ignore it for the comforting none-reality of peace and
safety. Or they simply have financial conflicts. Grandma subscribes to peace and safety as we are told so many many will. And what do you subscribe to?

Third, I find your arrogance a more than equal match, so arrogate on. Should be a fun exchange!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy

[Bob Pickle]

If you do not financially support 3ABN,if you do not sit on the board,you have nothing to say about how it operates, once you have made your problems with 3ABN clear to the board or whoever.

If 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private inurement, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.

Plus remember, I was responsible for promoting 3ABN on billboards and in multiple newspapers around here. Thus I have supported 3ABN.

The SOP is not a mandatory law. Many disregard EW as anything from delusional to you name it. It is not something you can force thru this lawsuit. Doesn't matter who started it, much of this a judge will not even hear I don't think.

My point is independent of judges or lawsuits. If there were no judges or lawsuits in the entire world, my point would still be valid.

[Bob Pickle]

This is another part of the story I do not buy........


With great regret that I am constrained to share the following info with the Advent Talk forum.

. 


I think it was with great delight instead of regret. About the only thing you left out was what they had for breakfast and what time.

I don't read 'any regret' here either Bonnie.

Sounded more to me like another 'Gotcha this time!'

Incidentally, have you never travelled on Sabbath? How do you get to Church? These days, travel can be a lot more complicated than just walking to Church - or hadn't anyone else noticed? 

I personally do not travel to church on a commercial jet, a church service that no one can attend unless they purchase tickets.

[Bob Pickle]

Let's try to summarize the basic concern that apparently started this thread.

Danny Shelton has claimed over and over again that he started 3ABN to counteract the counterfeit, and to give the undiluted three angels' messages to all the world. I know of nowhere where he has publicly stated that he started 3ABN so that he could live in a large house with a large horse barn, and make several hundred thousand dollars in royalties concealed from his own board and ex-wife.

What house he lives in, how big,what size the barn is really no one's business IF that comes as a result of living within his stated income.

I was speaking about Danny's stated purpose for starting 3ABN. I do not recall him ever saying that he started 3ABN so that he could live in a large house with a large horse barn. Thus, to obtain a house from 3ABN for $6,139 and to sell it one week later for $135,000 falls outside his stated purpose for starting 3ABN.

The media have covered the homes that televangelists live in, televangelists that I think don't have to state what their income is. The media would therefore likely disagree with you that it is no one's business.

"The members of the church should individually hold themselves and all their possessions upon the altar of God. Now, as never before, the Saviour's admonition is applicable: 'Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Those who are fastening their means in large houses, in lands, in worldly enterprises, are saying by their actions: 'God cannot have it; I want it for myself.' They have bound up their one talent in a napkin and hid it in the earth. There is cause for such to be alarmed. Brethren, God has not entrusted means to you to lie idle nor to be covetously retained or hid away, but to be used to advance His cause, to save the souls of the perishing. It is not the time now to bind up the Lord's money in your expensive buildings and your large enterprises, while His cause is crippled and left to beg its way, the treasury half-supplied. The Lord is not in this way of working. Remember, the day is fast approaching when it will be said: 'Give an account of thy stewardship.' Can you not discern the signs of the times?" (5T 465).

In quoting the above I am making no judgment regarding what size of large house is too large. It merely demonstrates that the Lord has bidden us to ponder issues of stewardship when making deciding what home we shall build.

The U.S.A. would probably not be in its present precarious position regarding the economy if the homes and the mortgages were the size that folks just emerging from the Great Depression felt comfortable with.