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[Gailon Arthur Joy]

The organization that Wintley is raising money for could fall into the category of healing on the Sabbath day. IMO he is following the example of Jesus in working on the Sabbath to help people who are in need.

Exactly.  And to represent Wintley Phipps and his ministry as SDAminister and Bob have done has the flavor of the legalistic dogma and traditions of the Pharisees at the time Jesus and His disciples walked this Earth.

Well, Grandma, I guess this is just another example of disgarding the standards to justify poor judgment. Now explain to me how one justifies getting paid $130,000 a year from a not for profit, clearly representing the Seventh-day Adventist church as a credentialed minister, and feeling free to breach the Seventh-day Sabbath while serving on the board of directors of a ministry that puts so much emphasis on the "FOURTH COMMANDMENT"? Is this legalism or hypocicy?

Does that mean that Seventh-day Adventist hospital administrators, because they are working for a 501c-3, can conduct business seminars on the Sabbath, through open the business offices and conduct other business and then while they are at it, do a little collections work, since the money is going to charity? I THINK NOT!!!

Phipps work is not essential work and is definitely work that could be done on any other day of the week. What an example it would have been to do a Friday evening program before Sabbath and then REST on the Sabbath day as our Saviour did after the cross, then do another on SUnday and let it be known that it was done in observance of the Seventh-day Sabbath. What an example of upholding Seventh-day Adventist standards and being a "peculiar people" rather than just another evangelical publum regurgitator: Be happy, be positive, all is well and the Lord wants us all to be rich!!! Let's see, is that what Mrs White so eloquently refers to as "Peace and Safety" messages? I seem to recall they all end up on the outside looking in!!!

I am beginning to think the reason you still cannot figure out the truth is because you have no standard to measure it by? Is that the problem you have?  And what happened to the "undiluted Three Angels Messages"? Did you throw them out with the SABBATH standards? Me thinks so!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy

[GrandmaNettie]

Bob, your and Gailon's "snouts", as Echo puts it, were in 3abn's business long before the BOD voted to file suit.  I  have seen the vitriolic emails from Gailon to Danny Shelton and anyone else who has dared to cross the AUReporter, including myself.  As I have followed this for almost 2 years now, I have grown to see that this is really not so much about cleansing the sin in 3abn's camp, but is simply a vehicle for Gailon's Crusade Du Jour; just how he enjoys spending his time.  Learning about the Hartland saga jelled that for me  Somehow, you decided to join him for this one.

You and Gailon have no business attempting to set the standards for any of the private ministries.  Yes, when one finds allegations of  serious problems it would be wrong not to deal with them.  BUT, there are proper channels to take to deal with any of the problems that you might feel are present in any organization or with any person.  Proper channels!  

If you disapprove of how Wintley Phipps chose to participate with the fund raiser for the Dream Academy that's your prerogative. Taking it to the level you have in this thread, using your personal opinion about proper Sabbath observance to attempt to sully the reputation of Wintley Phipps is way out of line.

If you have concerns that Wintley Phipps is not properly perfoming the duties of a conference pastor, discuss that with his conference officials.  If you have a beef with the direction of the denomination, take it up with the NAD.

I appreciated the Bible verse that Jax posted recently.  Proverbs 14:12:

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. "

In my own devotions recently I read again Jesus' words to His disciples in John 16:12, 13a:

12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."

Not one of us has arrived at the truth yet.  Truth is individual and progressive.  If willing to be led, we will each be guided into that truth by the Holy Spirit, not by mortal man.

Bob, you and your compatriots have no business sticking your snouts into this private ministry and the lives of its leadership in the manner that you are doing.  Your behavior is reducing the credibility of the denomination and its very message.

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you are correct, then you need to talk to Danny and tell him that he should never have authorized us to do that by filing suit against us.

Remember some of the history of this saga:

• John Lomacang invited people to contact him if they had questions.
• John Lomacang told me that I could see the phone records.
• Walt Thompson asked me to verify what he told me about the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton.
• The 3ABN Board voted to sue us in U.S. District Court, and invited us to defend ourselves against allegations.

And remember that I did not start this thread.

[irspro]

Another of the Ten understood by some to breed confidence into a necessary level of integrity to produce character for a successful business model now appears to have degenerated into name-calling.

Some may think it strange for an auditor to develop an expertise in character along with successful business models including products.  I've never really attempted to put a mathmatical formula on the importance of the three other than 100%\100%\100% for each facet.

I was sitting in a camp meeting less than a half century ago where two uncharacteristic characters were making a pitch on some sort of broadcast ministry when we had VOP and FFT available.  I wondered whether this was a pitch for loaves and fishes or a real missionary indeavor.  I was saddled with an anti-davidian attitude coupled with other experiences of alleged missionary endeavors which soon petered-out as nothing more than wasted loaves and fishes.

One came through the community with an alleged health message with the proponent's appearance not being a proper display of health although the alleged professional degree seemed significant.  I learned later the display totally disappeared at an early age. 

Another came through the community alleging character with a special message and where one of the local elders commented that an angel slept in his house last night.  That character's character was alleged so spotless that one of the members whose trade demanded a high degree of accuracy advised me in the past of this alleged accuracy.  The spotless charactered character set the tradesman apart for the purpose of advising him of the need to only apply some type of wallboard with printing right-side up even though it would soon be covered with brick and out of sight.  That alleged spotless charatered character soon found themselvse in a looking-in state after the loaves and fishes dwindled which was blamed on the church.  Soon to follow was an alleged rape from a teen, a child of a support-side member.  Adequate legal representation\manipulation through subpoena, lack of local law enforcement, and lack of demand for criminal prosecution from the support-side family led to a vacating the community scot-free. I was later advised that a fellow minister queried about the truth of the matter which was answered with "I wasn't convicted" rather than a simple yes or no. 

My experience has found that hobby-type BODs fail at times to generate the necessay level of confidence in management character to assure a steady supply of adequate working capital through cash flow and\or donations for success for the business model.  If the product model fails to attract adequate capital, even the best managemet available is bound for failure.  Have little concern for management integrity seperate and apart from BOD inegrity as they are apt to mirror each other.

IMHO, you are rather naive if you think two or three characters on some internet message board can demean either mangement and\or hobby-type BOD of an independent ministry alleging to broadcast the "everlasting gospel" primarily supported by the alleged "shareholders in the pew without any direct voting power" to the extent of directly causing a significant change in giving habits.  It is hard to fathom for this professional how an organization with a broadcast ministry would create a financial-support venue through the local\worldwide organized church.  This professional saw the organized church exercising good judgement in support of its own organized broadcast ministry which I have seen some indications of being demeaned by certain supporters of certain independent broadcast ministries maybe just for a bit of competitive posturing.  Please let me advise both sides not to feel so high and lifted up with bloated egos to the extent that you cut a lot of ice with your influence.  SDAs, in the majority, are conservatives with an extraordianary amount of independent thought on various and sundry subjects which was a primary force in their stepping apart from thier for religious affiliations.

IMHO, those hoping for legal success pro-se in what I term as nothing more than just possible financial defamation should dot the "i and cross the t" on the real reasons for "any type of alleged defamation"  if you can get past your individual as well as corporate possible inflated egos.

I have seen a rash of alleged "last-day messaging" in recent years posted directly to my door down to the 9 digit zip code clearly imprinted, "Tithe:...... does not solicit tithe; however, we are a tithe-worthy organization and accept tithes.  We use the tithes only for the gospel ministry.  Donations designated "Gospel Ministry" will be considered tithe."  That type of language throws up an intergity flag to this SDA with an admonition to my church leadership to cut off any direct accounting vehicle to any independent ministry as part and parcel of adequate internal control!

I am not so naive to church accounting where I have seen some worthy student funds pressured toward benefit of sizable scholarships for their kin.  Those wishing to challenge the experience of this dyed-in-the-wool SDA are cordially invited!  Those wishing to continue their majoring in minors are also cordially invited to continue!  Character is what God knows while reputation is what your fellow-man thinks.

[Bob Pickle]

Bob, your and Gailon's "snouts", as Echo puts it, were in 3abn's business long before the BOD voted to file suit.

By August 24, 2006, John Lomacang had invited people with questions to contact him. So I did. On Sept. 1, 2006, he told me I could see the phone records. Danny contacted me on Thanksgiving Day 2006, not vice versa. Walt asked me to verify what he told me about the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations soon afterwards.

You and Gailon have no business attempting to set the standards for any of the private ministries.

I don't believe I have. The Bible, SoP, community standards, and federal and state regulations are what set the standards.

Yes, when one finds allegations of  serious problems it would be wrong not to deal with them.  BUT, there are proper channels to take to deal with any of the problems that you might feel are present in any organization or with any person.  Proper channels!  

Can you give a clear-cut, explicit example where that was not done?

If you disapprove of how Wintley Phipps chose to participate with the fund raiser for the Dream Academy that's your prerogative. Taking it to the level you have in this thread, using your personal opinion about proper Sabbath observance to attempt to sully the reputation of Wintley Phipps is way out of line.

Again, I didn't start the thread. So are you saying that no one is allowed to comment on a topic if it disagrees with your personal opinion?

Somehow I'm not sure you can call it simply my personal opinion. Have you read Neh. 10:31 lately? And Neh. 13:15-21? Engaging in commerce on the Sabbath is definitely wrong, according to Scripture.

If you have concerns that Wintley Phipps is not properly perfoming the duties of a conference pastor, discuss that with his conference officials.

I wouldn't want to do that without talking to Wintley first, and thus I may have to wait till Wintley stops suing me.

Since we are on that topic now, how do you think it affects Wintley Phipp's reputation that he would dare countenance a lawsuit against one of his own brethren (assuming there is no mention in the 3ABN Board minutes of his disapproval of this suit), in direct disobedience to God's explicit commands? Now since it is a matter of record that this lawsuit was conjured up in retaliation for our blowing the whistle on Danny Shelton's cover up of the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton, how does that affect Wintley's reputation in his work for kids? What would Oprah Winfrey say about it?

Since ASI was asked to investigate everything, and that everything included the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton, is there anything in the 3ABN Board minutes to indicate that Wintley Phipps protested the board's decision not to ask ASI to investigate those child molestation allegations, which above anything else helped to get the ASI process going?

Wintley Phipps is free to issue a statement demonstrating that he has taken a stand for Seventh-day Adventist values, including a stand against the cover up of child molestation allegations, private inurement, unbiblical divorce, and threatening non-Adventist pastors with lawsuits because they have concerns about child molestation. And while he is at it, he can also state that he believes we ought to uphold the standards of Neh. 10:31; 13:15-21.

Not one of us has arrived at the truth yet.  Truth is individual and progressive.  If willing to be led, we will each be guided into that truth by the Holy Spirit, not by mortal man.

What exactly was your point here?

[Bob Pickle]

I appreciate your posts.

IMHO, those hoping for legal success pro-se in what I term as nothing more than just possible financial defamation should dot the "i and cross the t" on the real reasons for "any type of alleged defamation"  if you can get past your individual as well as corporate possible inflated egos.

The plaintiffs want it to appear that it's all about finances, but it isn't and never has been. Of the three sections in the complaint that spell out the alleged defamation, the third section deals with Danny and Linda's divorce and Danny's remarriage, and gets into whether Danny had grounds for such, and whether Danny had inappropriate relationships with other women.

And there are other issues in the complaint as well.

[irspro]

How many of you are familiar with "officer's and director's liability insurance?  Some may be more familiar with losses of a type construed by tax laws as related to a hobby rather than "carrying on a trade or business for profit."  

How much diligence could you expect a non-paid BOD to exercise in re integrity of character of management of a hybrid alleged church-related non-profit corporation when that character becomes challenged by the major part of its financial support framed by a support organization capable of maneuvering support at the will of that organizations constituency and not able to be effectively controlled by the independent organization.  The matter is even further compounded when some of non-paid BOD are also construed to be character challenged.

[SDAminister]

..... a board of which Wintley is purportedly a member?

Is he or isn’t he a member of the 3abn board? If he is, why use the term “purportedly”? 

I can't answer for Bob Pickle, but Elder Phipps himself claims to be a member of the 3ABN Board of Directors. http://www.usdreamacademy.org/usdreamwintleyphipps.html

SDAminister

[irspro]

Who initiated the method of wading-up the individual donations for transmission tagged to an independent ministry in a local church? Was it ordered both up and down from upstream in the organized church? I don't think I would vote for a director or officer of especially an independent ministry where character or reputation  was a major component in the business model for reliable and uninterupted support.  I wouldn't even be an employee with the expectations of retirement with this flimsy type of financial arrangements.

And how are damages computed for the negligent who fail to properly devise a stable going-concern non-profit organization where character\reputation is very important?  Is this an indication of lack of educational qualifications?

[irspro]

..... a board of which Wintley is purportedly a member?

Is he or isn’t he a member of the 3abn board? If he is, why use the term “purportedly”? 

I can't answer for Bob Pickle, but Elder Phipps himself claims to be a member of the 3ABN Board of Directors. http://www.usdreamacademy.org/usdreamwintleyphipps.html

SDAminister

Go to the internet home page of the .or where you may get a "mug-shot" of the BOD if you have any concerns and doubts!

[GrammieT]

Who initiated the method of wading-up the individual donations for transmission tagged to an independent ministry in a local church? Was it ordered both up and down from upstream in the organized church? I don't think I would vote for a director or officer of especially an independent ministry where character or reputation  was a major component in the business model for reliable and uninterupted support.  I wouldn't even be an employee with the expectations of retirement with this flimsy type of financial arrangements.

And how are damages computed for the negligent who fail to properly devise a stable going-concern non-profit organization where character\reputation is very important?  Is this an indication of lack of educational qualifications?

Bro Inspro:

What does the bolded comment mean?    Or did you mean to say 'wadding-up?  'Wading' as in walking in the edge of the lake?  Or 'wadding' as in rolling into a ball, so to speak?  Don't mean to be nitpicking here but there is a significant difference in the meaning of the words and I wish to know which you meant.  It seems that one applies where the other one doesn't so much, if at all.

GrammieT 

P.S. to everyone.     It would be so helpful if we all would take an extra minute to proofread our posts to better get our messages across in the manner in which we wish them to be understood.  D'ya think we could do that?     It seems that we would want our readers to fully understand what we are trying to say; and to use a proper comma once in a while to set off a phrase or right spelling/usage of words in our sentences would go a long way to accomplishing that goal.

Doggone it, where did I put that list of common spelling/meaning goofs I put together a couple of years ago?

Okay, I'll shut up for now.  

[Bob Pickle]

How much diligence could you expect a non-paid BOD to exercise in re integrity of character of management of a hybrid alleged church-related non-profit corporation when that character becomes challenged by the major part of its financial support framed by a support organization capable of maneuvering support at the will of that organizations constituency and not able to be effectively controlled by the independent organization.  The matter is even further compounded when some of non-paid BOD are also construed to be character challenged.

Excellent point. The possibility exists that Danny snookered Wintley.

[irspro]

Who initiated the method of wading-up the individual donations for transmission tagged to an independent ministry in a local church? Was it ordered both up and down from upstream in the organized church? I don't think I would vote for a director or officer of especially an independent ministry where character or reputation  was a major component in the business model for reliable and uninterupted support.  I wouldn't even be an employee with the expectations of retirement with this flimsy type of financial arrangements.

And how are damages computed for the negligent who fail to properly devise a stable going-concern non-profit organization where character\reputation is very important?  Is this an indication of lack of educational qualifications?

Bro Inspro:

What does the bolded comment mean?    Or did you mean to say 'wadding-up?  'Wading' as in walking in the edge of the lake?  Or 'wadding' as in rolling into a ball, so to speak?  Don't mean to be nitpicking here but there is a significant difference in the meaning of the words and I wish to know which you meant.  It seems that one applies where the other one doesn't so much, if at all.

GrammieT 

P.S. to everyone.     It would be so helpful if we all would take an extra minute to proofread our posts to better get our messages across in the manner in which we wish them to be understood.  D'ya think we could do that?     It seems that we would want our readers to fully understand what we are trying to say; and to use a proper comma once in a while to set off a phrase or right spelling/usage of words in our sentences would go a long way to accomplishing that goal.

Doggone it, where did I put that list of common spelling/meaning goofs I put together a couple of years ago?

Okay, I'll shut up for now.  

All potentially low of wit can test the software package of this site in re spelling on the following words, wading-up and wadding-up which I initially used; however, the package didn't seem to care for either so I just kept sailing whether any saw me technically correct or not!

I don't generally respond to foolish posts with the sole intent of exposing their ire!

I generally guaged honesty on your type conduct where I had more power than even the President without question!

[CPAATTY]

All potentially low of wit can test the software package of this site in re spelling on the following words, wading-up and wadding-up which I initially used; however, the package didn't seem to care for either so I just kept sailing whether any saw me technically correct or not!

I don't generally respond to foolish posts with the sole intent of exposing their ire!

I generally guaged honesty on your type conduct where I had more power than even the President without question!

Stealing my SCHTICK again I see.

[GrammieT]

All potentially low of wit can test the software package of this site in re spelling on the following words, wading-up and wadding-up which I initially used; however, the package didn't seem to care for either so I just kept sailing whether any saw me technically correct or not!

I don't generally respond to foolish posts with the sole intent of exposing their ire!

I generally guaged honesty on your type conduct where I had more power than even the President without question!

Stealing my SCHTICK again I see.

So sorry if I offended anyone with my post.   I only meant that it seems that a lot of folks tend to click the post button before they take time to preview their message for understanding and continuity. 

And I tried to soften my criticism with the use of these neat emoticons.      

Now I remember where I put that list -- in the basket labeled " They won't want this info anyway!" 

GrammieT   

Refiling list  for future sharing with those who just might appreciate it?   

[irspro]

All potentially low of wit can test the software package of this site in re spelling on the following words, wading-up and wadding-up which I initially used; however, the package didn't seem to care for either so I just kept sailing whether any saw me technically correct or not!

I don't generally respond to foolish posts with the sole intent of exposing their ire!

I generally guaged honesty on your type conduct where I had more power than even the President without question!

Stealing my SCHTICK again I see.

Probably so as I've been known to do worse.  Was my thievery here or on BSDA?

Don't be so proud of your professional opinions to keep them all to yourself.

Glad to see a fellow traveler!