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[bonnie]

In reading the article linked from the newspaper, am I the only one who noticed that no mention was made of Pastor Phipps having any affiliation with the Seventh-Day Adventist Church?

That is not that uncommon here. A couple of churches have named their local church something that does not reflect the affliation.

Not that long ago there was a revelation seminar,not wanting to use the SDA name.
This is not all that odd.

[childoftheking]

1. The concert did not benefit Phipps personally. It was a charity event.
2. Maybe he could have done it differently but this is covered by the first part of the 10 commandments-the ones between God and man not between one person and another. He wasn't being cruel to anyone. Was not oppressing them by forcing them to work on Sabbath. And I think God can take care of himself.
3. If Phipps thought it was wrong, he would probably sneaked around and tried to hide it. He didn't. I am concerned about those who do sneak around and try to hide things while wanting some others to think they do not do these things.
4. I know some people eat out on Sabbath. I don't and do not not feel this is right but I don't gossip about those who do. It is between them and God. Maybe I do things that other people do not do. I get my mail on sabbath and read it. When I was a teenager at home and the only SDA in my family I took the bus to and from meetings at the church on Friday night. It was the only way I could get there. I was a nursing assistant and I worked on Sabbath when I couldn't avoid it.
5. This isn't a Theocracy and we don't stone people do we?
6. If we want people to take our genuine concerns seriously, we have to be fair and reasonable not attributing the worst motives to others. We cannot read minds.

[Bob Pickle]

Donna, people all around here got word that Phipps was going to perform, and how to buy tickets. Anyone who wants to can confirm the basic facts without going to Phipps.

Then why wait till AFTER the program to wring hands over breaking of the sabbath. I would think that important enough that the conference office was called BEFORE with concern how it would will hurt their efforts to proclaim the three angels' message of which the sanctity of God's law is supreme.--It is further unknown what effect this will have upon the work of 3ABN as Elder Phipps is perhaps one of the most public figures in all of Seventh-day Adventism.


Not after the fact . Sorry, not buying your "regret to inform"

I never said anything about regret, but I could. I didn't know a thing about it before last Monday, and wasn't inclined to say anything because I have plenty to do at present.

1. The concert did not benefit Phipps personally. It was a charity event.

That's not entirely true.

Phipps reported that he worked 40 hours a week for the U.S. Dream Academy in 2006, which makes one wonder when he ever sleeps, since I thought he was a pastor too. And for that 40 hours a week he made $130,000 from U.S. Dream Academy.

For 2006 20% to 25% of the reported total revenue for the organization went for the salaries of the president and vice-president of the organization.

5. This isn't a Theocracy and we don't stone people do we?

3ABN defenders haven't been good judges of such things since they appear to generally take the position that church discipline is not allowed for any reason unless your name is Linda Shelton. But regardless, the Church Manual is very clear that Seventh-day Adventists as a people believe that Sabbath breaking constitutes grounds for church discipline.

[SDAminister]

Donna, people all around here got word that Phipps was going to perform, and how to buy tickets. Anyone who wants to can confirm the basic facts without going to Phipps.

Then why wait till AFTER the program to wring hands over breaking of the sabbath. I would think that important enough that the conference office was called BEFORE with concern how it would will hurt their efforts to proclaim the three angels' message of which the sanctity of God's law is supreme.--It is further unknown what effect this will have upon the work of 3ABN as Elder Phipps is perhaps one of the most public figures in all of Seventh-day Adventism.


Not after the fact . Sorry, not buying your "regret to inform"

The blue above is Bob Pickle being quoted but you're quoting me in the bold type above. So, let me respond.
I became aware of this only on Friday. I immediately called both conference offices concerned (Minnesota and the Southeastern conference where Phipps lives and works) as well as Elder Phipps home church. All were closed for the week.

[bonnie]

The blue above is Bob Pickle being quoted but you're quoting me in the bold type above. So, let me respond.
I became aware of this only on Friday. I immediately called both conference offices concerned (Minnesota and the Southeastern conference where Phipps lives and works) as well as Elder Phipps home church. All were closed for the week.

I am assuming you were not the only one with such a detailed schedule of this man. I am inclined to believe the timeline and where to purchase was known when it was advertised.

I also would think the conference office was aware. If not,then they should have been with so many concerned people.  KNowing every little detail.
Whether he should have acted the way he did or not, I am a little cynical as to why all of this concern and "regret"
Obviously from what you say he has done this before, so why should a trip to MN be different?

[bonnie]

1. The concert did not benefit Phipps personally. It was a charity event.

That really wouldn't be the point tho, would it?? Travel time may be a bit tricky but for those that it is important to the rest could easily have been taken care of,unless for some reason they were unaware.

2. Maybe he could have done it differently but this is covered by the first part of the 10 commandments-the ones between God and man not between one person and another. He wasn't being cruel to anyone. Was not oppressing them by forcing them to work on Sabbath. And I think God can take care of himself.

I don't think so. The conduct of our leaders should reflect adherence to our doctrine.

I just really thought it a bit more than regret that led to the minute details.

3. If Phipps thought it was wrong, he would probably sneaked around and tried to hide it. He didn't. I am concerned about those who do sneak around and try to hide things while wanting some others to think they do not do these things.

Sometimes it is sheer arrogance. Now the other side is trying to make it fit .

5. This isn't a Theocracy and we don't stone people do we?
6. If we want people to take our genuine concerns seriously, we have to be fair and reasonable not attributing the worst motives to others. We cannot read minds.

No, we don't stone people. That has nothing to do with the expectation of our leaders conducting themselves in such a manner that there is no room for doubt as to what we believe.
We cannot read minds, but we can consistent actions.

While I have some objections to what SDA minister was about with this topic, I would think our leaders could exercise a bit more care

[Jack Indabocks]

Friends, people, whoever,

Give me a large time break! Wake up!

I am reminded of the time Jesus and his disciples came to town and were there on Sabbath, and after worship service no one, not a one invited them to Sabbath dinner as the rules of hospitality and of the time usually dictated, especially with a visiting Rabbi which jesus certainly was.

So Jesus and his disciples travelled on, and they were hungry, and no wonder! And so his disciples began to pick grain along the way and eat it. Bur because everyone else was minding their business and was having Sabbath dinner and fellowship, no one even saw them or cared???


NO!!!

Those crazy, hypocritical, unmerciful, faultfinding , inhospitable  pharisees. They even spited themselves, they gave up their own family, friends and fellowship dinner to instead  follow Jesus out of town. Those sneaks! waiting and lurking and looking to find either he or his disciples doing something, anything, wrong. And then they pounced and began to accuse and told Jesus "Your disciples are harvesting! that is forbidden on the Sabbath" " Sabbath breakers" "sinners!"

Think about it...    Now how stupid and ridiculous  was that?

And Jesus said something which was so alien to them, and remains so alien to so many, even today.  He said "But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless."

Guiltless. Do you comprehend what that means? That word doesn't mean excused, it doesn't mean forgiven etc..  The context of that underlying Greek word is: without fault, without blame or reproach ---> without sin.

Phipps was traveling on the Sabbath??? so what!?! do you know why he was doing so, or what was going on beforehand making it necessary? I somehow doubt it.... or that it would even matter to some if there was cause.

Next , sponsors sold tickets during Sabbath hours...

And are the sponsors Sabbath keepers? Do they even know or believe or have convictions about it?  Was phipps in charge of ticketsellers or sponsors or when they opened and closed their business?

Somehow I doubt it...

Imagine you are a farmer, You grow corn but are convicted about not working on the Sabbath, so you plow, plant, harvest and then sell it to a local Farmers market and even a cannery all while guarding your special time with the Lord and resting and delighting in him, and not working during the Lord's quality time with you.

Problem the Farmers market is open on Sabbath,  So is the cannery, people working and being paid. Next the product is sold on the Sabbath, stockers stock it on the shelves, shoppers buy it, and Cashiers sell it. ALL  on the Sabbath, wives, mothers and Chefs cook it on the Sabbath, others partake or buy it at their favorite restaurant...

Are you the sinner? Not hardly. You are in charge only of when you buy and sell...

Better question, are the others sinners? Do thy even know about or hold any kind of convictions about it?

God winks ar times of ignorance.. Do his people???

Paul once wrote:

1Cr 5:12- 13 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
 But them that are without God judgeth.



Being both Just and Merciful... what a concept.

I thank God that Jesus has the final say.

Many of you people scare me.

Mat 9:13  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jax

[Bob Pickle]

Not sure I understand your reasoning, Jack.

Jesus was quite clear that His disciples were guiltless in eating on the Sabbath. But I'm not sure what difference that makes.

Do you think that building the sanctuary in the wilderness on the Sabbath would have been acceptable? If not, why not?

Remember, not only did Jesus say that He would have mercy rather than sacrifice, but He also said that He would have obedience rather than sacrifice.

[SDAminister]

Next , sponsors sold tickets during Sabbath hours...

And are the sponsors Sabbath keepers? Do they even know or believe or have convictions about it?  Was phipps in charge of ticketsellers or sponsors or when they opened and closed their business?

.....thou,... nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant........


But Jax, then would you be willing to explain why Elder Phipps had a benefit concert for US Dream Academy at Sligo SDA Church in Washington DC last month on a Saturday evening but charged no admission but rather accepted a freewill offering? http://www.usdreamacademy.org/usdreamevents.html And why couldn't he do the same here?

If it's okay to charge money to provide a product or service on the Sabbath then why don't we set up booths in the vestibules of our churches Sabbath morning and sell Wintley Phipps CD's and give the money to charity?

SDAminister

[SDAminister]

The blue above is Bob Pickle being quoted but you're quoting me in the bold type above. So, let me respond.
I became aware of this only on Friday. I immediately called both conference offices concerned (Minnesota and the Southeastern conference where Phipps lives and works) as well as Elder Phipps home church. All were closed for the week.

I am assuming you were not the only one with such a detailed schedule of this man. I am inclined to believe the timeline and where to purchase was known when it was advertised.

I also would think the conference office was aware. If not,then they should have been with so many concerned people.  KNowing every little detail.
Whether he should have acted the way he did or not, I am a little cynical as to why all of this concern and "regret"
Obviously from what you say he has done this before, so why should a trip to MN be different?

The "every little detail" you refer to was just my way putting this beyond rumor to support with facts. If I didn't give details, it would be harder to verify----no?

The reason the MN trip is different is that this is the first that I've ever heard of Elder Phipps doing such a thing. So, I didn't wait around for years to try and play "gotcha".

The "regret" you refer to (others mockingly so) stems from my own hmmmmm how to say, relationship with Elder Phipps. Our paths professionally crossed when we both worked at the GC a little over 10 years ago. Additionally, my family and his have a Tobago connection which I'd rather not elaborate on. I have always had great respect for him as well as a kind of jealousy. I wish I had his voice! Oh to be able to sing like that! Maybe someday. That is why the "regret". If this bright light goes out by continuing down this path, it will be a great loss to the SDA church.

SDAminsiter

[SDAminister]

Where this whole thing leaves me cold and it begins to look like "I gotcha" mentality was when you threw in the concern by MN conference.

I never said "MN conference" I said, "members in the Minnesota conference".

SDAminister

[Gregory]

Charges like this are an excellent example of why I say that some who criticize 3-ABN have decended to the same level of those they criticize and by doing so they have lost any sense of the moral rightness that they have claimed to have.

No person is perfect.  A close examination of the life of everyperson involved in this saga would likely reveal imperfections.  There is a point beyond which people should leave issues to God. Bringing these issues up in this public forum does not do well for the credibility of thsoe who have brought them up.

The Sabbath and how it  shoudl be  kept is one important issue on which God has left it to the individual in regard to the details.  The principles are there in Scripture. The details are often not.  People are therefore going to differ.  It is between them and God

Folks, get a life.  Deal with central issues.  The personal lives of individual 3-ABN Board members is not central to this saga.  I will suggest that some people have no perspective as to what is central to this case and what is not.

NOTE: I am well aware that my comments will likely result in a lot of negative comments made about me.  O.K.  I will accept that.  This charge is just off the wall.

[christian]

I have refrain from posting until now because I have enjoyed reading the post. However I have chose to post now because maybe I have something to say that is revelant It is so interesting to see the post that are posted in defense of the supposed work of God which frankly I don't believe is the work of God. It is my belief that the conferences and General Conference are so far gone that they would crucify the son of God quicker than the Jews did in Jesus time. Pickle is indeed in a pickle because he (though sincere) is fighting against not only Danny but the General Conference and the Adventist Church in General. Danny is simply follwing in the footsteps of the Adventist Church in suing their brother and sister (no pun intended). The church has long since left the roadmarks set by the Spirit of prophecy and long since grasped hands with the world. He Whitley Phipps is part of the organization which can and will do anything and justify it because after all they are the chosen of God. The Adventist Church has become the preachers of the law while all the time love money and are void of the main ingredient LOVE. I have my biggest laugh when I think about those trying to defend Danny and 3ABN by justifying his getting ride of the LOVE of his life Linda (whom he loved so much) he had to do it because he Loved Her with a undying love, excuse me dying love  But of course he was blessed by God with one more beautiful than Linda and young as his own daughter because God saw how much he loved Linda and knew that the new ones great beauty would make him forget his great love for Linda. Preaching the law is not the work of God, showing mercy and love is the work of God and will do more to save than even the Sabbath. You know what I bet you there are some so fanatical that they would defend the Conference for suing their brethren, who are not their brethren if they don't agree with them

[Gregory]

I will make five points:

1)   The Bible contains principles that are valid in every time, place and culture.
2)   Biblical principles are NOT culturally determined.
3)   The understanding and application of Biblical principles are often culturally determined.
4)   God typically used imperfect humans to accomplish His purpose.
5)   While there are some things that must be called sin, there are other issues that should be left to God.


In traveling around the world and living in some other countries it has become evident to me that the SDA Church does not have a common understanding in every part of the world as to how its members should live and what they should believe.

I have known Adventists living in Asia who were shocked at what they saw in American Adventists and the Americans were shocked at what they say in those same Asian Adventists.

Going outside of a church context I am reminded of a Korean culture class I once took in South Korea where the teacher informed us that Koreans were shocked by the immodest dress of American males.  Yet, the Americans often had a hard time dealing with coed restrooms and public bathing.

German Adventist are often shocked at what they see in the denominational standards that they see in Americans.  In turn Americans have been shocked at certain aspects that they have seen in the life-style of German Adventists in leadership positions in the U.S.

I have seen some of the same in Central America.

I am reminded of a denominational leader in France who in his lifetime (He is now dead.) accomplished great things for God.  Yet, he held a personal doctrinal position that the majority of U.S. Adventists would consider to be anathema.  I am one of those who did not agree with his doctrinal position on an issue that some would consider to be a fundamental belief.  Yet, it is clear to me that God used him.

We in the West may not realize the freedoms that we have may not be available in other countries:

I once spent 33 days in a country that had been ruled by a Marxist government.  At the beginning of that school year the Marxist government had approached the SDA leadership in that country and informed them that it they wanted to open a large elementary school that they operated in the capital city they would hire a specific Marxist teacher.  The denominational leadership complied and left it in the hands of the Lord.  Church leadership personally told me that they believe that God had made the intentions of the Marxist government of none effect even though they had this Marxist teacher on their staff.

I am reminded on another country which claims to be a democracy.  In the capital city of that country the SDA church has a nice college.  The government of that country controls that degrees granted and has a voice in who is admitted to the college.  Because of that Adventists in this country might be surprised at some of what happens in that SDA College.

I was in a country when the government announced that certain magazines and books would have to be approved by the government prior to publication.  I asked our denominational leadership in that country how that edict would affect them and was told that they would be able to work around it and would be able to continue to publish as they wished.

I am thinking of a country that has repressed religion in the past.  Yet the SDA church has done well in that country.  It has done well because the denominational leadership in that country accommodated the government when it did not violate principles to do so.  Few American SDAs know the story on this as that story still can not be openly told.

God has used imperfect people in the past and in the present to accomplish His work.   Some people know that history of the SDA church in Cuba and why for a period of time following the revolution the SDA Church held a preferred place in the eyes of the government.

The story of a now deceased SDA living in North Korea is unknown in America today.  But, her life and witness to those who worked with Kim Il Sun was well known by those who know the history of the Communist Party in North Korea.  God took a simple, imperfect, woman and used her to accomplish His purpose even if that story is not told at this time.

Getting back to the issues raised about WP:  The United States no longer has a unified White, European culture.  This country is a mix of peoples and cultures.  These differences extend to the SDA Church and its members.

WP may not be correct in everything that he does.  He may be imperfect.  But, God is in charge.  God can lead him.  There are some things that should be left between the individual and God.  The questions raised about WP and not central to the issues raised about 3-ABN.   Give WP a rest and get on with your lives folks.

[Rosa]

Next , sponsors sold tickets during Sabbath hours...

And are the sponsors Sabbath keepers? Do they even know or believe or have convictions about it?  Was phipps in charge of ticketsellers or sponsors or when they opened and closed their business?

.....thou,... nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant........

Respectfully, you appear to be confused. A sponsor is not a employee, nor is it anyone in our household or under our roof.

Merriam- Webster  definition:
sponsor:
a person or an organization that pays for or plans and carries out a project or activity; especially : one that pays the cost of a radio or television program usually in return for advertising time during its course

In regards to ticket sales, or sales of anything else on Sabbath..

If in our professed Sabbath keeping Church? Yes, maybe it is justified to feel as Jesus did when chasing the moneychangers out of His Father's house. But even so, he did not go off in a fit of rage or temper, as he took the time to go make his own whip first...

But if sales are out in the world, or by those who don't even profess to be  Sabbath keepers or believers?

Well then it is up to the individual when he buys his ticket, he is not forced to buy on Sabbath, as can do so before.

As far as free will offering, perhaps they didn't do that in MN for the very reason you already gave, it was a sponsored event.

Really I think this whole issue is both petty and silly and should be dropped, but jmo.

But Jax, then would you be willing to explain why Elder Phipps had a benefit concert for US Dream Academy at Sligo SDA Church in Washington DC last month on a Saturday evening but charged no admission but rather accepted a freewill offering? http://www.usdreamacademy.org/usdreamevents.html And why couldn't he do the same here?

If it's okay to charge money to provide a product or service on the Sabbath then why don't we set up booths in the vestibules of our churches Sabbath morning and sell Wintley Phipps CD's and give the money to charity?

SDAminister