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[Ozzie]

He calls himself a Bishop, but that's the only guy I've ever heard of elevating himself to that status in the SDA Church.

Next, I expect you to tell us that you have never heard of a SDA minister wearing a clerical collar.   Some SDA ministers were wearing such into the 1940's when most stopped.  But, there have been a few who have worn them since.

Well, believe me or not Gregory, No. I have not ever heard of a SDA Minister wearing a clerical (dog) collar.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't know. But if a person claimed to be a SDA Pastor and turned up here wearing a 'dog collar', he'd certainly get a few odd looks and set a few tongues a-wagging! 

His affiliation would surely be questioned.

I didn't even know any SDA person back in the 1940's, so maybe that's why I've never heard of it?

[Rosa]

He calls himself a Bishop, but that's the only guy I've ever heard of elevating himself to that status in the SDA Church.

Next, I expect you to tell us that you have never heard of a SDA minister wearing a clerical collar.   Some SDA ministers were wearing such into the 1940's when most stopped.  But, there have been a few who have worn them since.

Well, believe me or not Gregory, No. I have not ever heard of a SDA Minister wearing a clerical (dog) collar.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't know. But if a person claimed to be a SDA Pastor and turned up here wearing a 'dog collar', he'd certainly get a few odd looks and set a few tongues a-wagging! 

His affiliation would surely be questioned.

I didn't even know any SDA person back in the 1940's, so maybe that's why I've never heard of it?

I have never heard of or seen whether in person or in pictures any SDA minister wearing a collar either, I am not saying it never happened though.

I don't know Stephan Lewis, but I wonder why we are assuming that just because he allegedly refers to himself as a Bishop, instead of a Pastor that he might wear a clerical collar, or that the office of Bishop and a clerical collar go hand in hand?

Perhaps what is being confused is the definition of Bishop.

The Catholic definition, or other churches definitions which borrow from that or have adapted from that are somewhat different from the Biblical one...

Bishop, from the Greek ( Strongs 1985) "episkopos"
1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church

In reference to Jesus:
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

In reference to Timothy:
2Ti 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ [be] with thy spirit. Grace [be] with you. Amen. [[[The second [epistle] unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.]]]

In reference to Titus:
Tts 3:15 All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace [be] with you all. Amen. [[[It was written to Titus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Cretians, from Nicopolis of Macedonia.]]]

Regarding the Office of Bishop aka Minister, Elder, Pastor...:


"1Timothy 3:1-11
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach: Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. ... Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. " (hmmmmm.... ok, well never mind, moving on...)



Also, regarding the Office of Bishop aka Minister, Elder, Pastor...:
Titus 1:5-
 "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any  be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers, For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Nothing there about "**** ***** ************* **** **** ********* ****** ************ *******"

It does occur to me that we may have been infiltrated by some Cretians tho...


==============
Edited by Artiste to remove inappropriate content

[Gregory]

Rosa:

No claim is made that he wore a clerical collar.  I do not  think that he  did.

As far as you never seeing a photo of a SDA minister wearing a clerical collar  I suggest that you do the following:

1) Look for a photo of a one-time elected officer of the General Conference--Luther Warren.  Tell me whether or not he is wearing a clerical collar.

2) Study the history of the denomination from its founding until the 1940s.  You will find a distinct group of SDA clergy in the United States between 1920 and 1940 who wore a clerical collar.  NOTE: I am not saying that they did not wear such prior to 1920.

The only time I have heard of an SDA minister getting into trouble for wearing a clerical collar was one who worked in a Roman Catholic area and was commonly mistaken for a Roman Catholic preist.  He was told to take it off.

[Ozzie]

He calls himself a Bishop, but that's the only guy I've ever heard of elevating himself to that status in the SDA Church.

Next, I expect you to tell us that you have never heard of a SDA minister wearing a clerical collar.   Some SDA ministers were wearing such into the 1940's when most stopped.  But, there have been a few who have worn them since.

Well, believe me or not Gregory, No. I have not ever heard of a SDA Minister wearing a clerical (dog) collar.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't know. But if a person claimed to be a SDA Pastor and turned up here wearing a 'dog collar', he'd certainly get a few odd looks and set a few tongues a-wagging! 

His affiliation would surely be questioned.

I didn't even know any SDA person back in the 1940's, so maybe that's why I've never heard of it?

I have never heard of or seen whether in person or in pictures any SDA minister wearing a collar either, I am not saying it never happened though.

I don't know Stephan Lewis, but I wonder why we are assuming that just because he allegedly refers to himself as a Bishop, instead of a Pastor that he might wear a clerical collar, or that the office of Bishop and a clerical collar go hand in hand?

I don't believe that anyone is confusing the issue Rosa, and I don't believe that we are ASSUMING that this 'Bishop' wears a 'dog collar'.

Gregory made a somewhat sarcastic remark when I said that I had not been used to hearing SDA clergy being referred to as 'Bishop'. He retaliated with the question "Next, I expect you to tell us that you have never heard of a SDA minister wearing a clerical collar."

I truthfully replied that I had never heard of a SDA cleryperson wearing a 'dog collar'. The conversation has drifted from there, to assumptions that there are other SDA Clergy who wear similar.

Perhaps what is being confused is the definition of Bishop.

And perhaps, people are reading mroe into what was written than that which was intended?

The Catholic definition, or other churches definitions which borrow from that or have adapted from that are somewhat different from the Biblical one...

Bishop, from the Greek ( Strongs 1985) "episkopos"
1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church

In reference to Jesus:
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

In reference to Timothy:
2Ti 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ [be] with thy spirit. Grace [be] with you. Amen. [[[The second [epistle] unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.]]]

In reference to Titus:
Tts 3:15 All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace [be] with you all. Amen. [[[It was written to Titus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Cretians, from Nicopolis of Macedonia.]]]

Regarding the Office of Bishop aka Minister, Elder, Pastor...:


"1Timothy 3:1-11
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach: Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. ... Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. " (hmmmmm.... ok, well never mind, moving on...)



Also, regarding the Office of Bishop aka Minister, Elder, Pastor...:
Titus 1:5-
 "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any  be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers, For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Nothing there about, "******** *** ********* **** ***** ********* ************ ******** ****"

It does occur to me that we may have been infiltrated by some Cretians tho...

No Rosa. Nothing there in the 10 Commandments about those "Shalt nots". No doubt, it's more of a cultural thing, as I stated earlier.

And you have such a lovely Christian way of calling people "Cretins" don't you? Flavour of the month is it?


==============
Edited by Artiste to remove inappropriate content

[Gregory]

Gregory made a somewhat sarcastic remark when I said that I had not been used to hearing SDA clergy being referred to as 'Bishop'. He retaliated with the question "Next, I expect you to tell us that you have never heard of a SDA minister wearing a clerical collar."

And forthat I apologize.  I understand that you and probably a lot of other people would consider it to be sarcasm.

My wife is quick to tell me that I can laspe into a method of communication in which others reasonabley do not understand me, and I can communicate in a manner that does not fully consider how other will reasonably understand it.

It was not my intent to be sarcastic.  I apologize for posting in that manner.  I said it without fully thinking through how it would be understood.

Gregory Matthews

[Johann]

It may be of interest that we once had a "televangelist" making programs that were called something like Religious Town Hall. and his real name was, as far as I recall, Bishop Leiske. Seems like he was an SDA pastor - whose real name was Bishop. Must have been 50-60 years ago. I recall I was very surprised when I heard him being called Bishop, but then I was told his real name was Bishop. Should his parents have been dis-fellowshipped?

[Maxey]

It may be of interest that we once had a "televangelist" making programs that were called something like Religious Town Hall. and his real name was, as far as I recall, Bishop Leiske. Seems like he was an SDA pastor - whose real name was Bishop. Must have been 50-60 years ago. I recall I was very surprised when I heard him being called Bishop, but then I was told his real name was Bishop. Should his parents have been dis-fellowshipped?

Johann, I think Bishop was a title that the church allowed him to use.  I believe his first name was Albert and he went by Bishop A. A. Leiske.   He was a colorful fellow and was quite innovative in using TV back when it was still a novelty.  I have to admit there was quite a "cringe" factor when his son took over the program.  But that's just me...

[Gregory]

Maxey is correct.  Bishop is a title that he took and it was not his name.

[Johann]

When some of his films were shown in a class in homiletics at Emmanuel Missionary College back in 1956 by our teacher, Elder Horace Shaw, I recall him telling us that Bishop was part of his name, when I questioned how he could use this title. Could it be that he took the name Bishop rather than using it as a title?

Or was Elder Shaw just trying to "cover up his misdeed" - like some others are being accused of doing?

[Johann]

There are various kinds of "clerical" collars in different parts of the world. Many of these are only relics of the regular "suits" worn by any gentleman, and not only clergy, in past centuries. Therefore there is no "Thou shalt not . . " regulating their use.

[Gregory]

There are various kinds of "clerical" collars in different parts of the world. Many of these are only relics of the regular "suits" worn by any gentleman, and not only clergy, in past centuries. Therefore there is no "Thou shalt not . . " regulating their use.

Exactly Johann.

[Johann]

When some of his films were shown in a class in homiletics at Emmanuel Missionary College back in 1956 by our teacher, Elder Horace Shaw, I recall him telling us that Bishop was part of his name, when I questioned how he could use this title. Could it be that he took the name Bishop rather than using it as a title?

Or was Elder Shaw just trying to "cover up his misdeed" - like some others are being accused of doing?

I wasn´t thinking when I wrote 1956. It was during the fall session of 1955 I took that class, but I have no documents to prove it - just my memory.

[Eduard]

Study the history of the denomination from its founding until the 1940s.  You will find a distinct group of SDA clergy in the United States between 1920 and 1940 who wore a clerical collar.  NOTE: I am not saying that they did not wear such prior to 1920.

Gregory,

What is the Biblical basis for dividing a church into "clergy" and "laity"? Which are the Biblical texts that instruct for such a separation between members, designating some as the "speaking church" and the others as the "listening church," and attributing to the first unbiblical privileges and authority? Why do you think someone who gets a degree in religion, a M.Div., or Th.D., believes that he is "called" to do God's work? Does a church have the Biblical authority to call someone to apostleship as the old time prophets anointed people for different kinds  of spiritual work?

Are you "called"? Do you have a spiritual discernement above that of an "uncalled" member of the church? Do you have Bibblical spiritual authority above that of an "uncalled" member of the church?

How much does ecclesiastical authority count? It ecclesiastical authority also evidence of divine calling?

Eduard







 

[Habanero]

How much does ecclesiastical authority count? It ecclesiastical authority also evidence of divine calling?

Eduard

Good Question, Eduard. IMO, ecclesiastical authority counts to the extent that the adherents who choose to allow an ecclesiastical authority to exercise authority over them, are willing to let that authority go. If ecclesiastical authority were evidence of divine calling, I should think that God would eventually have to explode, as ecclesiastical authorities present such a diversity of teachings that conflict.

[Gregory]

What is the Biblical basis for dividing a church into "clergy" and "laity"?

There is no Biblical authority for such a division, as you well know.

There were leaders appointed in the NT Church.  So, the Bible does support leadership.  But, it does not support a division between clergy and laity.