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Author Topic: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?  (Read 126357 times)

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Snoopy

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2008, 04:54:49 PM »

Thank you for sharing that, Gregory, and for your unbiased analysis.  I understand the win-win point you are making, but my suspicion is that if those documents show what Bob thinks they will show, the implications will be huge.  BTJM...
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Daryl Fawcett

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2008, 07:26:27 PM »

I wonder how much money the bank is requesting for this information?

Snoopy

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2008, 07:29:51 PM »

I think it would be a per page fee.  But I have no idea how many pages we are talking about.  So once the magistrate sees the documents, then what?  Does he get to decide the relevance, and what happens next?

I wonder how much money the bank is requesting for this information?
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Gailon Arthur Joy

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2008, 08:45:49 PM »

"They also have a major problem that has come into the strategic mix...a criminal investigation by the IRS which is highly prejudicial and usually inadmissible. BUT, they alleged defamation per se and made a big deal about the premise that the allegations we have made accused 3ABN and the Founder of criminal activity...and now they have accidentally laid the foundation for the introduction of the investigation and the implications including expert testimony!"

Gailon, in the above you were explaining that the IRS criminal investigation of 3ABN can now be brought into court as evidence because of the defamation accusations of 3ABN's lawyers?

Am I understanding that correctly?

The issue goes to rules of evidence and since they have charged us with Defamtion Per Se, it becomes relevant and admissable as it relates to the
financial allegations.

Gailon Arthur Joy
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Gailon Arthur Joy

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2008, 09:09:10 PM »

A decision has been made in the attempt of Bob Pickle to subopena ceratin bank records in MN:

1) The bank has been ordered to provide the requested document, but ONLY to the Magistrate located in MA who is in charge of that aspect of the lawsuit there.

2) Bob Pickle has been ordered to pay the bank all reasonable costs the it incurs in providing the documents referenced above.  The bank is not obligated to send the documents to MA until Bob pays them their fee.

3) All documents are under seal and are not to be shared with anyone else which includes Bob Pickle and Gailon Joy.

4) Others (including  Bob and Gailon) may petition the court in MA for access to those documents and the MA court may grant such access as it believes is justified.

5) The motion of Danny Shelton to quash the subponea is denied.

6) The motion to deny Mr. Shelton's motion to quash is denied as it is moot.

My analysis:  It is a win for both sides. But, the importance is not known at this time. I.e.  It may be of no consequence or or may be of major consequence.  It is premature for either side to trumpet this as a major win.

NOTE: As I am not an attorney and I am not trained in law, my comment above is not to be construed as giving a legal opinon or any kind of legal advice.  It is simply a personal opinon of mine.
 


That is a relatively sound assessment but I would note that the seal violates local rule and is not relevant until and if the records are paid for. This was a reasonable enforcement of the subpoena, and simply deferred the availability of the records until the Massachusetts court puts into the record a "confidentiality agreement". Given this court's prior history, the records will logically become available to the defendants but may be protected from posting identical copies to public view, but cannot prevent summaries or we have a First Amendment Issue; and a Plaintiffs' lawsuite cannot be brought to violate basic rights guaranteed by the constitution.
Otherwise, mandamus becomes a possibility.

To avoid uneccasary embarrasment to the Plaintiffs, It is worth waiting for the confidentiality agreement to determine just how the documents will be treated under the discovery rules. May be worth it to simply re-issue a new subpoena
to avoid serious potential for embarrassment to the plaintiffs after we see the confidentialiity agreement.

On the other hand, strategically putting the documents under seal would open a real can of worms if another reporter stepped in and requested mandamus. Judge Saylor and the First circuit would seem inclined to support the unsealing and that would be very counter-productive to the plaintiffs. Not a very good position in which to finds oneself, is it?

So, Mr Gregory, how would you play this chess game??? Open the plaintiffs to the possibility of serious embarrasment by putting the documents under seal or waiting for the confidentiality agreement and allowing some semblance of privacy?

In other words, leave them naked in the public square or let fair play prevail?

Gailon Arthur Joy
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Gregory

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2008, 03:15:26 AM »

Gailon:

I am not going to speculate beyond my level of competence, even if some might think that I have already done so.  But, I will illustrate with a true story.

I few years back I filed a "Freedom of Information Act" case against a Federal agency.  My request was denied, if full and for reasons that I considered just plain dumb.  That got my attention and I appealed to a higher level.  In my appeal I tore apart the reasoning of that agency that had denied my request.

The bottom line:  I was given full disclosure of all documents related to the issue that I had raised.  In fact, I was given more documents that I had actually requested.  I beleive that I was given more than I had requested to punish the agency for refusing a fair request and involving the authorities in a case that could have been settled by simply giving me what I had requested.

O.K. getting to the order of the MN Court in ordering the production of documents and that the be provided, under seal, to the magistrate on MA:

1) The order of the MN Court suggests to me that this was NOT a compromise order that both parties had agreed to accept.  Rather it appears to me to be an order of the court that was made without respect to the desire of parties, but on the basis of law.

2)  I suspect that both sides won some issues in this order that the other side had not been willing to grant.  On this basis, I suspect that both sides lost something that they had not been willing to give up.  I do not have a desire to speculate on the specifics of who won and who lost what.  It is simply common sense to believe that the court would issue an order that walked a line between what the parties wanted, giving something to each and taking something from each.

3) The ultimate benefit of this order to the respectifve paraties will depend upon what the MA magistrate and the MA court will do with the documents that are provided it.  In the end there  could be a total loss to either side.  Or, there could be a compromise which walked a line between the parties giving something to each, but not the total of what either wanetd.

4) I suspect that the immediate issue in MA will be access to the docuemnts by Gailon and Bob.  It should be understood that full access to all documents could be a hollow win for them.  They could be given access only under strict conditions of use.  IOW they could be ordered not to disclose the content of the docuemnts in any form or manner to anyone.  Of course that might be subject to First Amendment challenge.  But, such an order could be issued.

5) Regardless of the issue of access, there is another issue that is significant.  That issue related to the question as to how the documents are used.  The fact that documents exist does not automaticly mean that they will be allowed to be entered as evidence in litigation.  If they are so entered, it does not mean that they will in any way be determinative as far as the results of the litigation.

IN SUMMATION:  In my opinon the value of the order of the MN Court is unknown at this time.  It is simply another step in what may be a very long process.

On another aspect:  Negative comments have been made in regard to one of the 3-ABN lawyers and her need to take beginning law 101.  I do not agree with that assessment.  She knows exactly what she is dong, in my opinion.  While the MN law firm may have some lawyers on their staff who are stronger than others, they are all competent. Each works in their area of speciality. When it is needed the law firm can place their strongest lawyers into the mix.  In a complex case like this it is to be expected that each side will win some and each side will lose some. The ultimate issue is not what each side wins and loses at this point but the ultimate issue is the final decision.  That decision is currently undecided, unknown and cannot be predicted at this point in time.

 


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Bob Pickle

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2008, 07:07:29 AM »

On another aspect:  Negative comments have been made in regard to one of the 3-ABN lawyers and her need to take beginning law 101.  I do not agree with that assessment.  She knows exactly what she is dong, in my opinion.

Do you think she knew that she was issuing invalid subpoenas because they had no case numbers on them, and didn't say "District of Massachusetts" on them? Did she also know that she wasn't giving us the notice required by the local rules?

And did Gerry Duffy know that common law copyright hasn't existed on the federal level since the 1830's, and on the state level since 1978, when he appealed to common law copyright in his cease and desist letter of January 30, 2007?
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Gregory

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2008, 07:12:38 AM »

Bob:

My statement stands as I wrote it.

In general terms I am seeing happen what I expect to happen.  Again, I expect that both sides will win some and will also lose some.

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Johann

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2008, 08:04:47 AM »

 :thumbsup:
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Gailon Arthur Joy

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2008, 02:00:16 PM »

"1) The order of the MN Court suggests to me that this was NOT a compromise order that both parties had agreed to accept.  Rather it appears to me to be an order of the court that was made without respect to the desire of parties, but on the basis of law." - Gregory

The proces began as a motion to quash. THe production has been ordered. The Minnesotta Judge simply wanted to faciltate the proper remit back to Massachusetts for the decison on the "confidentiality" rules. To close the case in Minnesotta, it is clear he dumped the motion to quash and ordered the production. Because of the violative motion to quash, we had asked they be charged to produce the documents. Unfortunately, as is typical, he opted not to punish miscreants. Further, to protect the documents produced, assuming we proceed with the production, he ordered them "sealed" until the Judge in Worcester decided on the confidentiality issues.

My point is that the order to seal has a serious defect and potentially works against the plaintiff's best interest. Simply put, documents under seal in the 1st Circuit Court of Appeals
are subject to writs of mandamus from newspapers that is rarely kept sealed. I am not convinced that it is in anyones best interest to make the bank account documents open
for general public display and so far the 3ABN debacle has been kept within the confines
of the SDA church, for the most part, and should be kept there, if possible.

Hope this gives clarification.

Gailon Arthur Joy



« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 02:08:52 PM by Gailon Arthur Joy »
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Snoopy

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2008, 02:15:36 PM »

Good.  And my statement stands as I wrote it.

My statement stands as I wrote it.
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Gailon Arthur Joy

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #56 on: March 30, 2008, 07:48:56 PM »

I think it would be a per page fee.  But I have no idea how many pages we are talking about.  So once the magistrate sees the documents, then what?  Does he get to decide the relevance, and what happens next?

I wonder how much money the bank is requesting for this information?

We already have a bill and timetable for production based upon the original subpoena. Just not yet time to produce without the confidentiality order in place. The order may need to be moved de nouveau to Judge Saylor or even appealed to the First Cicuit Court of appeals. Therefore, best to not expend the resources until we know the disposition and value to the case.

Patience is in order and lets see what the judge orders.

Gailon Arthur Joy
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Gregory

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2008, 06:43:22 AM »

Ah, the writ of mandamus as relief.  Yes, it is an order of a court to require that a specific act either be performed or not performed.   For people who do not know its legal history it is a good sound bite.

In general terms, with occasional rare exceptions, it is not issued against an individual.  The ultimate right to issue such resides with the U. S. Supreme Court.  Yet, as an outgrowth of Marbury v. Madison   that court has almost abolished the practice of issuing such writs, while maintaining the right to do so.  The reason for doing such is in that requirement that mandamus only be issued when there is not other legal remedy for a legal right.

Appellate courts do have the right to issue such writs only when there is a compelling reason to do so.

Rule 81(b) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure  generally prohibit District Courts from issuing such writs as it is generally assumed that in those courts other remedies exist.

My opinion:  Perhaps the context would be right for the news media to obtain such a writ, and that was the context of Gailon’s comment.  However, it probably would be a long shot for others to obtain such.  It is not known if the news media would have any interest in this case in its present state of development.  So, none should hold their breath while waiting for a writ of mandamus.   NOTE: As I am not trained in law the preceding is my personal opinion and should not be construed as an opinion on the law.  Anyone needing legal advice should seek that from a competent legal, licensed, professional.
 
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SDAminister

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2008, 08:34:07 AM »


IN SUMMATION:  In my opinon the value of the order of the MN Court is unknown at this time.  It is simply another step in what may be a very long process.

On another aspect:  Negative comments have been made in regard to one of the 3-ABN lawyers....
Agreed. Negativity should have no place here.

While the MN law firm may have some lawyers on their staff who are stronger than others, they are all competent.
Gregory,
Are you stating that they are all competent as your opinion or as a fact? Do you have personal experience working with the lawyers at this firm? How do you know that they are competent? I'm not doubting that they are and have no clue as to the ramifications/importance of all the tactics used by both sides. Your thoughts?
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Gregory

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Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2008, 08:50:25 AM »

Re: 
Quote
Are you stating that they are all competent as your opinion or as a fact? Do you have personal experience working with the lawyers at this firm? How do you know that they are competent?

Sorrry.  I have no intention of giving a reason for my statement. So, accept or reject it as you will.  Take it solely as my opinion if you wish.

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