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[Artiste]

ADMIN HAT ON

There are several Forum Rule Violations in this thread today.  Bans are being issued accordingly as well as the deletion of inappropriate items.

ADMIN HAT OFF

[Petunia]

I've been traveling and come back to see this post to GrandmaNettie.  Rather chaps my hide, Sister, coming from one who represents herself as a Christian who is calling for a cleansing of sin from the 3abn camp. Have noticed that from one or two others here, as well.  And yes, I was lurking earlier and saw GrandmaNettie's post before it was deleted.

Sometimes edits take awhile, but you are correct; it may never be edited.

As far as not getting anywhere... yes, I know.  Sometimes, no matter how hard one attempts to point to the actual facts and proper reasoning, it seems to fall on deaf ears.

When this is all over, and one day it most assuredly will be, it will be abundantly clear who has been spinning. 

==inappropriate content removed==
 

GrandmaNettie, it hasn't been edited by the administrators, so draw your own conclusions. When I think of your posts at AdventTalk,  I am reminded of a hamster running on a wheel in a cage: going full speed, it  never gets anywhere. It just continues to sin spin it's wheel under the watchful eye of those who feed it. But unlike hamster who receives nourishment as a reward, all you get is surmising and false information:
Keep spinning your wheel GrandmaNettie, although you are not getting anywhere, hopefully it gives you pleasure.


===========
Edited by Artiste

[Bob Pickle]

So Petunia, what famous Christian do you think this was written about?

"***, adopting that cool tone of contempt and cutting and homely language so familiar to him, said, 'I slap your spirit on the snout.' "

I found that quote years ago in a book Ellen White highly recommended. If that gentleman were able to post here today and were to say something like that, what would you say to him? How would you treat him?

One more, the second being from the mystery writer:

" 'In like manner we excommunicate and curse all those who intercept any provisions on their passage to our city of Rome.'

" 'He snarls and snaps, like a dog that fears his bone will be taken from him.' "

[GRAT]

Was reading the other day from the New International Version of the Bible.  This is a note on Matthew 23: 24-28 "The Pharisees, who literally strained water through a cloth to filter out unclean gnats, could hardly miss the point of Jesus' biting humor.  Jesus was not attacking them for being strict per se, but rather for fixating on trivial matters while ignoring more important issues: justice, mercy, faithfulness.  He blasted their smug, hypocritical sense of superiority." NIV  (italics and bold mine)  Jesus wasn't a mealy mouthed wimp.  Don't think He would think that most of the issues discussed on these threads are trivial.  He said he hated divorce and the hurting of children. 

[Artiste]

What about Nehemiah?

"So I gave them a warning. I called curses down on them. I beat some of them up. I pulled their hair out.

I made them take an oath in God's name. I said, "You must promise not to give your daughters to be married to their sons. You must promise not to let their daughters marry your sons. And you must not marry their daughters either..."  (New Intenational Reader's Version)

How would his actions and words be regarded? 

[GRAT]

So Petunia, what famous Christian do you think this was written about?

"***, adopting that cool tone of contempt and cutting and homely language so familiar to him, said, 'I slap your spirit on the snout.' "

I found that quote years ago in a book Ellen White highly recommended. If that gentleman were able to post here today and were to say something like that, what would you say to him? How would you treat him?

One more, the second being from the mystery writer:

" 'In like manner we excommunicate and curse all those who intercept any provisions on their passage to our city of Rome.'

" 'He snarls and snaps, like a dog that fears his bone will be taken from him.' "



I'm not Petunia but my guess is Martin Luther. 

[Jack Indabocks]

So Petunia, what famous Christian do you think this was written about?

"***, adopting that cool tone of contempt and cutting and homely language so familiar to him, said, 'I slap your spirit on the snout.' "

I found that quote years ago in a book Ellen White highly recommended. If that gentleman were able to post here today and were to say something like that, what would you say to him? How would you treat him?

One more, the second being from the mystery writer:

" 'In like manner we excommunicate and curse all those who intercept any provisions on their passage to our city of Rome.'

" 'He snarls and snaps, like a dog that fears his bone will be taken from him.' "

I don't know about Petunia, but I know what would I say to him. How about Proverbs 14:12:

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Could I say something to him I'd beg him to fall on his knees and ask forgiveness for his part in bringing about the deaths of so many souls. He rightly broke away from the twisted theology of the papal system, but he, like some today on their "self-righteous" crusades, diverted from the march for truth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and fell into step behind the father of lies.

A few well-chosen moves do not a stellar example make. The whole must be considered before patterning one's character and strategy after such a man.  Far more safe to look to the unerring pattern of our Savior, IMO.
 
FromMartin Luther's dirty little book:
 
Unfortunately few popular books on Luther go into detail about Luther's anti-Jewishness, or even mention that he had a hatred for Jews at all. This has resulted in a biased outlook towards Martin Luther and Christianity. This unawareness of Luther's sinister side, while honoring his "righteousness" leads to a ratcheting promotion of Luther which supports a "good" public image while also transporting his Jewish beliefs to those who carry the seeds of anti-Semitism. This will present an unwanted dilemma for many Christians because Luther represents the birth of Protestant Christianity as well as the genesis of the special brand of Jewish hatred that flourished only in Germany.
 
Although Luther did not invent anti-Jewishness, he promoted it to a level never before seen in Europe. Luther bore the influence of his upbringing and from anti-Jewish theologians such as Lyra, Burgensis, (and John Chrysostom, before them). But Luther's 1543 book, "On the Jews and their lies" took Jewish hatred to a new level when he proposed to set fire to their synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbad them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Luther wanted to "be rid of them" and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ. Hitler's Nazi government in the 1930s and 40s fit Luther's desires to a tee.
 
I would encourage all to read this entire article.  It is quite illuminating!  Others in the early 20th century also patterned their behavior after Martin Luther.  The article covers this in some detail.
 
If this is the man some of you choose to adopt as a mentor, an example of how to treat others, one has to wonder if you will soon be calling for the burning of buildings at 3abn.  Some of you are already aptly modeling his "sinister" side quite well.
 
Once again, Proverbs 14:12:

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.



Jax- just speaking for himself and/or any precious flower...

[Bob Pickle]

So Jack, if it were up to you, would you recommend to Ellen White that she write her chapters in GC differently about Martin Luther?

Did Luther ever call someone a liar ten or twenty different ways, and never give an example of a single lie they told? Have you gotten on anyman's case for doing that?

And have you gotten on anyone's case for condemning me for being a fundamentalist Protestant, for being so-called anti-Catholic, for believing that the pope is the antichrist of Scripture like the Missouri Synod does?

[Jack Indabocks]

So Jack, if it were up to you, would you recommend to Ellen White that she write her chapters in GC differently about Martin Luther?

Did Luther ever call someone a liar ten or twenty different ways, and never give an example of a single lie they told? Have you gotten on anyman's case for doing that?

And have you gotten on anyone's case for condemning me for being a fundamentalist Protestant, for being so-called anti-Catholic, for believing that the pope is the antichrist of Scripture like the Missouri Synod does?

You mean like when she wrote this?

   

THE Reformation did not, as many suppose, end with Luther. It is to be continued to the close of this world's history. Luther had a great work to do in reflecting to others the light which God had permitted to shine upon him; yet he did not receive all the light which was to be given to the world. From that time to this, new light has been continually shining upon the Scriptures, and new truths have been constantly unfolding.


     Luther and his co-laborers accomplished a noble work for God; but, coming as they did from the Roman Church, having themselves believed and advocated her doctrines, it was not to be expected that they would discern all these errors. It was their work to break the fetters of Rome and to give the Bible to the world; yet there were important truths which they failed to discover, and grave errors which they did not renounce...

I think she wrote it just fine.

Moving to 3abnTalk now.

Good-bye

[Bob Pickle]

Well, Jack, you seemed to have dodged my questions. Ellen White in GC did not blast Martin Luther like you did. Do you think she should have condemned him in the manner that you did?

Have you gotten on anyman's case yet?

Have you gotten on the case yet of whichever 3ABN defender was responsible for condemning me for being a fundamentalist Protestant, for being so-called anti-Catholic, for believing that the pope is the antichrist of Scripture like the Missouri Synod does?

[Bob Pickle]

By the way, when folks look down on the Jews they forget that they are simply a microcosm of us all. If people think that the Jews have suffered the wrath of God for their sins, they need to remember that what they think the Jews have suffered is what all the rejecters of God's grace shall eventually receive.

I think that it is about time after 2000 years that the Jews as a whole repudiate their bogus chronology which differs so radically from Ussher even though both are supposed to be based on the Masoretic text.

Why is the Jewish year this year 5769 (the number of years since creation) instead of something closer to 6000? Because the rabbis long ago decided that the 490 year prophecy of Daniel 9 stretched from the destruction of the first temple to the destruction of the second temple instead of from Artaxerxes' decree to the Messiah. Thus the 70 weeks go from around 421 BC to around 70 AD.

But putting Nebuchadnezzar's destroying Jerusalem around 421 BC instead of around 587/586 BC vaporizes roughly 166 years of history. Add 166 to 5769 and you end up with 5935, which is a reasonable age of the earth based on the Masoretic text and close enough to Ussher to make sense.

In order to justify the resulting short Persian kingdom when the temple's destruction is placed in 421 BC, I believe I read in the Talmud the idea that Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes in Ezra 6:14 were all the same person. I thought that was actually a more reasonable idea than the idea that Esther was the wife of Mordecai, or something like that.

All Jewish chronological authorities should know and acknowledge the bogus nature of the 5769 year date. So why don't they correct it? Simply to avoid drawing attention to other possible interpretations of the 70 weeks?

But then again, the Jews aren't any different than the rest of us. There are a lot of examples of various groups sticking with their long-accepted traditions even though they know they are wrong.

[Artiste]

I was wondering why the Jewish year was 5769.

[GrammieT]

Unfortunately few popular books on Luther go into detail about Luther's anti-Jewishness, or even mention that he had a hatred for Jews at all. This has resulted in a biased outlook towards Martin Luther and Christianity. This unawareness of Luther's sinister side, while honoring his "righteousness" leads to a ratcheting promotion of Luther which supports a "good" public image while also transporting his Jewish beliefs to those who carry the seeds of anti-Semitism. This will present an unwanted dilemma for many Christians because Luther represents the birth of Protestant Christianity as well as the genesis of the special brand of Jewish hatred that flourished only in Germany.
 
Although Luther did not invent anti-Jewishness, he promoted it to a level never before seen in Europe. Luther bore the influence of his upbringing and from anti-Jewish theologians such as Lyra, Burgensis, (and John Chrysostom, before them). But Luther's 1543 book, "On the Jews and their lies" took Jewish hatred to a new level when he proposed to set fire to their synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbad them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Luther wanted to "be rid of them" and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ. Hitler's Nazi government in the 1930s and 40s fit Luther's desires to a tee.
 
I would encourage all to read this entire article.  It is quite illuminating!  Others in the early 20th century also patterned their behavior after Martin Luther.  The article covers this in some detail.
 
If this is the man some of you choose to adopt as a mentor, an example of how to treat others, one has to wonder if you will soon be calling for the burning of buildings at 3abn.  Some of you are already aptly modeling his "sinister" side quite well.
 
Once again, Proverbs 14:12:

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Jax- just speaking for himself and/or any precious flower...

Jax:  this is a very interesting and informing quote regarding Martin Luther.  While it shows a very uncomplimentary picture of a man revered by most Protestants, this does not in any way negate his focus on the scriptural truths he hilighted in his '95 Theses' nailed to the door of the German  well, whatever building he used  , which, I believe, is your point in sharing this info.  Thanks

It also goes to show the growth factor of new understanding of the times in which he wrote and our acceptance of the message for us in today's world as well as discernment of new light which we are told may come our way.  Hopefully we are not so stubborn as to reject that new light when it does not totally conform to the 'way we have always understood it.'

GrammieT

By the way, when folks look down on the Jews they forget that they are simply a microcosm of us all. If people think that the Jews have suffered the wrath of God for their sins, they need to remember that what they think the Jews have suffered is what all the rejecters of God's grace shall eventually receive.

I think that it is about time after 2000 years that the Jews as a whole repudiate their bogus chronology which differs so radically from Ussher even though both are supposed to be based on the Masoretic text.

Why is the Jewish year this year 5769 (the number of years since creation) instead of something closer to 6000? Because the rabbis long ago decided that the 490 year prophecy of Daniel 9 stretched from the destruction of the first temple to the destruction of the second temple instead of from Artaxerxes' decree to the Messiah. Thus the 70 weeks go from around 421 BC to around 70 AD.

But putting Nebuchadnezzar's destroying Jerusalem around 421 BC instead of around 587/586 BC vaporizes roughly 166 years of history. Add 166 to 5769 and you end up with 5935, which is a reasonable age of the earth based on the Masoretic text and close enough to Ussher to make sense.

In order to justify the resulting short Persian kingdom when the temple's destruction is placed in 421 BC, I believe I read in the Talmud the idea that Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes in Ezra 6:14 were all the same person. I thought that was actually a more reasonable idea than the idea that Esther was the wife of Mordecai, or something like that.

All Jewish chronological authorities should know and acknowledge the bogus nature of the 5769 year date. So why don't they correct it? Simply to avoid drawing attention to other possible interpretations of the 70 weeks?

But then again, the Jews aren't any different than the rest of us. There are a lot of examples of various groups sticking with their long-accepted traditions even though they know they are wrong.

Bob:  The information given above is also very interesting and goes a long way to helping us understand some of the chronological questions brought to mind in the calendar differences we see, as well as explaining how we can more intelligently discuss our understanding of the prophecies and how they relate to Jewish negatives to accepting Jesus as the Messiah.  Very helpful.

Again:   

GrammieT   

Hey, Snoopy!  I got the quote usage stuff pretty good here, huh?        

Peoplies:  Ya gots ta use the icon with the little yellow quote page in the second line of the usage icons in the Post Reply box! Get it? 

[Bob Pickle]

Bob:  The information given above is also very interesting and goes a long way to helping us understand some of the chronological questions brought to mind in the calendar differences we see, as well as explaining how we can more intelligently discuss our understanding of the prophecies and how they relate to Jewish negatives to accepting Jesus as the Messiah.  Very helpful.

Again:   

GrammieT   

Your very welcome.

I wondered why the Jewish year was so different from Ussher, and had trouble finding out why. An ultra-orthodox Jewish leader didn't seem to know. A reformed Jewish rabbi didn't know. But a Christian fellow that considers himself an expert on chronology did know and told me why, and then I forgot what he told me and had to rediscover it.

But Ben Zion Wacholder of Hebrew Union College, if I recall correctly, pinpointed the problem in one of his papers.

[Artiste]

Very interesting, Bob.