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[Sam]

I was sent this email by someone who had direct contact with Hartland.  Feels like Dejuvu to me.



I received this from Hartland on 5/28/2007.


Dear********



Yes, Gailon Joy was indirectly involved (or at least he tried to get himself involved). He was never a member of the staff, nor was he a member of any of its organizational bodies, so he only wrote what he heard by word of mouth. Most of what he wrote at that time was sheer misrepresentations of fact. In my opinion, he tried to spin anything and everything he heard in its worst possible construction. He has no compunction about bearing false witness.  He totally discredited himself to the vast majority of the staff at Hartland. His spin was so outlandish that it wasn’t credible to anyone that knew the truth. He was apparently being fed information though, from at least one disgruntled insider at Hartland, but never once did he bother to check with both sides on any story. He only consulted (obviously) with the one that he chose to represent (or rather with the one he used to make his misrepresentations). Most of our staff at the time got the very clear impression that he was not trying to be fair in his assessment, but rather biased – and in the extreme. So when we began reading what he wrote about 3ABN, we simply sent the emails to the dustbin. There may be elements of truth in what he has written about 3ABN (large or small), but I don’t recommend that you trust his spin. Be sure you can verify what he says from other sources.



We had the feeling that he enjoyed the work of trying to cut down institutions attempting to do God’s work and attempting to discredit their leaders. He seems to have a lot of time to waste on this self-appointed work. He also apparently claims that he was responsible for the dismissal of one of the presidents of AUC (which may have been needed), but I doubt that he was the one who accomplished it or that bears the responsibility for it.



Anyway, for what it is worth, that is my take on the situation.

God bless and keep you,

Sincerely,

*********************

[Bob Pickle]

In this case we did get statements from insiders who were not disgruntled, including Danny Shelton, John Lomacang, Mollie Steenson, Walt Thompson, Hal Steenson, courthouse records, and other sources.

If your email above is accurate regarding the sources from Hartland, then there isn't much comparison.

[Bob Pickle]

More than that, Sam, are you using this email as a means to justify Danny's cover up of the child molestation allegations against Tommy, his failure to disclose all his assets and income on his financial affidavit, his unbiblical divorce, and the like? Do you think this email allegedly from Hartland justifies Shelley Quinn's trashing of Alyssa Moore's confidential testimony regarding Danny Shelton's alleged sexual assault against her?

[bonnie]

I have had a few problems with Gailon when he appeared to be enjoying the fight and relished it.
However,your post is proof of what??

Who wrote it??
How credible is the person writing it??
How would one know this was a legitimate e-mail and not one concocted by you??

Who was the disgruntled staff member of Heartland?
Were they perhaps disgruntled for a good reason??

I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity.When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend DS hide their identity  it loses a lot of credibility.

Just who are you Sam?? I know from the sounds of your posts you have more than a passing acquaintance with the DS mess. I personally would be insulted by so called friends or supporters that defend anonymously. If a friend is to afraid to own up to his identity while tearing others down,your statements, assurances and now this e-mail lack any credibility as far as I am concerned.

Now maybe the time has come for you to put up or shutup. You either stop asking others for proof,or lay your proof out there. Maybe a good place to start is this letter from a year ago that you are just sharing with us now.

Without the proof you demand in every post, this e-mail is nothing but rumormongering. Now we know how much those that defend DS abhor that word, don't we.

Wonder how much lower this whole sickening mess can go before it finds it's own level

[bonnie]

You know Sam, I had more than casual contact with people of your ilk during my son's ordeal. I had far less respect for those than I did the ones that condemned my son and our family.

These staunch defenders of truth were so glad that someone finally had the courage to stand up and say enough.

Wasn't it just terrible what happened to your son and his beautiful family? You know, I have knowledge of some things that could help you, but you can't use my name. This isn't the first time this has happened with this man. No one can know where you got the information. We sure hope you are successful in laying the blame where it belongs. This kind of behaviour needs to be stopped. It can't be hidden any longer.

We heard the above over and over. To me, this type of help and support is just plain hogwash and not worth the time it took to say it. It took far more away from us than helped. If you lack the guts to stand behind what you defend, perhaps what you are defending isn't worth it

[bonnie]

Just a little add on. The ones with the most to lose if we fell on our face were the ones that defended and stood by us for everyone to see. The others that defended in secret were not worth the time it would take to call them friends

edited to correct aa sentence

[GrandmaNettie]

Bonnie,  I understand your opinion.  I don't personally totally agree with it because I think your position is a little extreme, but you certainly have the right to feel the way you do.

Sometimes it isn't due to cowardice or even a lack of belief in the veracity of a cause that drives some towards anonymity.  Sometimes there are valid or extenuating reasons. 

My husband would only let me participate if I remained anonymous because he was concerned about repercussions against me.  When he got comfortable enough with the situation, he allowed me to step out of the shadows.

While the affirmations by those not willing to put their IDs where their sympathies were were not helpful to your seeking a remedy, and while I'm sure you were experiencing some feelings of frustration and, perhaps, even desperation for a solution, at least they were expressing a level of solidarity with you.  I'm sorry that you found it without any value.

[Sister]

I have had a few problems with Gailon when he appeared to be enjoying the fight and relished it.
However,your post is proof of what??

Who wrote it??
How credible is the person writing it??
How would one know this was a legitimate e-mail and not one concocted by you??

Who was the disgruntled staff member of Heartland?
Were they perhaps disgruntled for a good reason??

I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity.When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend DS hide their identity  it loses a lot of credibility.

Just who are you Sam?? I know from the sounds of your posts you have more than a passing acquaintance with the DS mess. I personally would be insulted by so called friends or supporters that defend anonymously. If a friend is to afraid to own up to his identity while tearing others down,your statements, assurances and now this e-mail lack any credibility as far as I am concerned.

Now maybe the time has come for you to put up or shutup. You either stop asking others for proof,or lay your proof out there. Maybe a good place to start is this letter from a year ago that you are just sharing with us now.

Without the proof you demand in every post, this e-mail is nothing but rumormongering. Now we know how much those that defend DS abhor that word, don't we.

Wonder how much lower this whole sickening mess can go before it finds it's own level

Sam, we are all waiting for you to answer Bonnie's questions. Bonnie, you hit the hammer directly on the nail concerning the validity of Sam's "email from Heartland".

[bonnie]

Bonnie,  I understand your opinion.  I don't personally totally agree with it because I think your position is a little extreme, but you certainly have the right to feel the way you do.
Sometimes it isn't due to cowardice or even a lack of belief in the veracity of a cause that drives some towards anonymity.  Sometimes there are valid or extenuating reasons. 

You are right that there are differing circumstances for different people.

But the same rule,demand and logic should apply. Lacking personal intimate knowledge you are left with a opinion you have formed. Not everyone that has an opinion should be required in something like this to broadcast their name. That is not what I was referring to.

If, as an example,I quite routinely on this forum, call you a liar, deluded ,whatever,and demand proof for every word you say,then I better be prepared to do same. Do not tell me I am lying because an anonymous person said so. This is basically just what happened with Sam's e-mail. Now I believe in order for him to have credibility he needs to put his money where his mouth is. Do not give me anonymous unless you are ready to let me do same


 

My husband would only let me participate if I remained anonymous because he was concerned about repercussions against me.  When he got comfortable enough with the situation, he allowed me to step out of the shadows.

That is not what I am referring to. Sam,Ian,Anyman,one or three people write as if they have intimate,personal, first hand knowledge. Using that so called first hand anonymous knowledge and have done their best to cast doubt on Bob Pickle and Gailon Joy.

I don't care which side does it, put your money where your mouth is or keep the mouth shut. Ian,anyman,and Sam should face the same requirements they demand of others. So far it seems to be lacking. This e-mail is more than a little suspect quite frankly. Look at the writing style and some of the phrasing. I will tell you beyond a doubt I thought at first I was reading a post by Sam. Not one sent to him. Not every single person in all cases should be suspect because of their anonymity . However there is little excuse for being afraid to put your name to a defense of someone you believe to be Innocent. For those that lack personal, first hand knowledge is a little different than those that claim  "TO KNOW' and any that disagrees with them is either delusional or dishonest.
They do not have to take responsibility for one single word they say. And can keep saying it.

While the affirmations by those not willing to put their IDs where their sympathies were were not helpful to your seeking a remedy, and while I'm sure you were experiencing some feelings of frustration and, perhaps, even desperation for a solution, at least they were expressing a level of solidarity with you.  I'm sorry that you found it without any value.

Frustration was not in my vocabulary. Livid is a better description. For anyone, especially those that claim to be christian to hide facts and refuse to help in a manner that would have done some good was not what I considered solidarity. It was pretty much our family fighting on our own. There were those  few that had the most to lose that stepped up to the plate.  Yes we were desperate because of the children. There is no way on this earth I could have lived with myself if I refused to help someone elses innocent children.


Personally I don't have the facts outside of a few instances that formed my opinion. But I do know I put little faith in anyone failing to do what they demand of others. I have not seen evidence of proof, denials and putdowns are not proof or evidence that what they in fact are saying is true. They in turn say the same of Pickle and Joy

IMO, Sam has absolutely no business posting that without identification. If anonymous e-mails are going to be posted as proof of something ,then don't demand different from others.

What Sam did was underhanded and quite dishonest. I have my differences with Gailon,but I still expect the rules to be a bit more equal. I have no reason to believe Sam anymore than I have reason to believe Gailon.

The bottom line is for me,the same rule should apply.
This whole thing is like playing board games with my oldest brother. As soon as I came close to undersatnding the rules and winning, he changed the rules on me.



 Without proof of the origin of the e-mail what he posted was rubbish or rumormongering by Sam. That great little word that gets tossed around so freely.
Sam need to back up that e-mail with a name,otherwise he should shut the mouth over it



edited to correct sentence

[Bob Pickle]

Sam, we are all waiting for you to answer Bonnie's questions. Bonnie, you hit the hammer directly on the nail concerning the validity of Sam's "email from Heartland".

ASI and 3ABN have been great friends, and some of the major players at ASI have been as well.

However, ASI and Hartland have not been the best of friends, I believe over the tithe issue. How has 3ABN felt about Hartland? Has there been a meeting of the minds over Gailon?

But regarding the tithe issue, since Danny has claimed under penalty of law to have given tithe to 3ABN, how does that affect his standing with ASI and the major players there? Or has he stopped that practice and is now only returning tithe to the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Or has he been dealt with differently than Hartland for some reason?

[bonnie]

Grandma Nettie,

This can't go both ways. You  offer up proof to what you are posting or quit demanding it from others.

That e-mail is  suspect .Even if true, Sam needed to provide the proof he so freely requires from others

[Habanero]

Sam, are you speaking of the Hartland Institute that the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists has disavowed and considers to be an offshoot that should not be trusted by Adventist Christians, and has even published warning about? Are you making a comparison that would relate 3ABN and Hartland? That might actually be a very pertinent and relevant comparison in some ways.

[Cindy]

I have had a few problems with Gailon when he appeared to be enjoying the fight and relished it.
However,your post is proof of what??

Who wrote it??
How credible is the person writing it??
How would one know this was a legitimate e-mail and not one concocted by you??

Who was the disgruntled staff member of Heartland?
Were they perhaps disgruntled for a good reason??

I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity.When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend DS hide their identity  it loses a lot of credibility.

Just who are you Sam?? I know from the sounds of your posts you have more than a passing acquaintance with the DS mess. I personally would be insulted by so called friends or supporters that defend anonymously. If a friend is to afraid to own up to his identity while tearing others down,your statements, assurances and now this e-mail lack any credibility as far as I am concerned.

Now maybe the time has come for you to put up or shutup. You either stop asking others for proof,or lay your proof out there. Maybe a good place to start is this letter from a year ago that you are just sharing with us now.

Without the proof you demand in every post, this e-mail is nothing but rumormongering. Now we know how much those that defend DS abhor that word, don't we.

Wonder how much lower this whole sickening mess can go before it finds it's own level

Sam, we are all waiting for you to answer Bonnie's questions. Bonnie, you hit the hammer directly on the nail concerning the validity of Sam's "email from Heartland".

Lay ee odl lay ee odl-oo


nfo@hartland.edu

[

My husband would only let me participate if I remained anonymous because he was concerned about repercussions against me.  When he got comfortable enough with the situation, he allowed me to step out of the shadows.

That is not what I am referring to. Sam,Ian,Anyman,one or three people write as if they have intimate,personal, first hand knowledge. Using that so called first hand anonymous knowledge and have done their best to cast doubt on Bob Pickle and Gailon Joy.

I don't care which side does it, put your money where your mouth is or keep the mouth shut. Ian,anyman,and Sam should face the same requirements they demand of others. So far it seems to be lacking. This e-mail is more than a little suspect quite frankly. Look at the writing style and some of the phrasing. I will tell you beyond a doubt I thought at first I was reading a post by Sam. Not one sent to him. Not every single person in all cases should be suspect because of their anonymity . However there is little excuse for being afraid to put your name to a defense of someone you believe to be Innocent. For those that lack personal, first hand knowledge is a little different than those that claim  "TO KNOW' and any that disagrees with them is either delusional or dishonest.
They do not have to take responsibility for one single word they say. And can keep saying it.

 

go here:


http://www.3abntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37&p=116#p116

[Sam]

I have had a few problems with Gailon when he appeared to be enjoying the fight and relished it.
However,your post is proof of what??

Who wrote it??
How credible is the person writing it??
How would one know this was a legitimate e-mail and not one concocted by you??

Who was the disgruntled staff member of Heartland?
Were they perhaps disgruntled for a good reason??

I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity.When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend DS hide their identity  it loses a lot of credibility.

Just who are you Sam?? I know from the sounds of your posts you have more than a passing acquaintance with the DS mess. I personally would be insulted by so called friends or supporters that defend anonymously. If a friend is to afraid to own up to his identity while tearing others down,your statements, assurances and now this e-mail lack any credibility as far as I am concerned.

Now maybe the time has come for you to put up or shutup. You either stop asking others for proof,or lay your proof out there. Maybe a good place to start is this letter from a year ago that you are just sharing with us now.

Without the proof you demand in every post, this e-mail is nothing but rumormongering. Now we know how much those that defend DS abhor that word, don't we.

Wonder how much lower this whole sickening mess can go before it finds it's own level

I do not demand proof in every post...maybe you are confusing me someone else?  I state facts that  counteract what the PickleJoy team are doing. I don't demand proof of anything from them as I know they don't have it.  "real", "verafiable" proof that is.

As for your demands...here is the link...I left out the names but over there, I see they have been added.  That's good. Now that you see it is genuine, we can move on.

http://www.3abntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37&p=116#p116

BTW I have never "made up" or edited someone else's email so really shouldn't have been accused of it.  That position goes to Bob.

[bonnie]

do not demand proof in every post...maybe you are confusing me someone else?  I state facts that  counteract what the PickleJoy team are doing. I don't demand proof of anything from them as I know they don't have it.  "real", "verafiable" proof that is.

And you really need to learn to read.. As for facts I have seen what you posted and declared to be the real facts,but you have proven zip, nada.  I have not seen the proof. It doesn't matter what anyone says,show the proof.
Now one of you should be able to. While personally I believe there has been a resolution from the IRS, you have not even come close to proving it. Because you state something and declare it a fact doesn't make it so.

As for your demands...here is the link...I left out the names but over there, I see they have been added.  That's good. Now that you see it is genuine, we can move onhttp://www.3abntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37&p=116#p116

BTW I have never "made up" or edited someone else's email so really shouldn't have been accused of it.  That position goes to Bob.

You are doing it again. I did not accuse you of making up the e-mail I speculated. Shame on you for taking that and running with it again.
But even at that, you saying you have never done so, is hardly proof


I put very little faith in anything you say. Because I have seen you over and over doing what you so piously complain about. For someone to be as close as you obviouly are to 3ABN and remain anonymous in your total support of DS is not very convincing. I simply do not believe or give credibility to what you say.
I am sure at times you are correct or firmly believe you are but it simply is not worth my time or interest to sort thru what you say and try to determine if this time it really is fact.


You already had to make more of than take my words as said.