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Author Topic: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation  (Read 108934 times)

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Johann

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2008, 09:44:56 AM »

A New Gust of Wind? Of comprehension?
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Cindy

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2008, 10:01:52 AM »

Grat, would you really throw Elder Batchelor under the bus just because he didn’t buy into your view of how things should turn out?

Maxey, let me make it perfectly clear, I would through Doug Batchelor under the bus THREE times, if I could prove he has done the same things that I know Danny Lee Shelton has done.

Treble damages for hypocrits!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy


AKA three eyes for an eye?

And some still can't figure out why this is all so ugly and wrong?





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Gailon Arthur Joy

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2008, 10:13:47 AM »

Pardon me...I thought you were a little smarter than Pickle concerning the IRS investigation.  Figured you wouldn't risk looking so foolish to deny something that has obviously taken place.  Guess I was wrong.  At this point I guess you are willing to risk anything to try and keep the few supporters that remain.  You have mislead them many times (which is why you are down to so few) and you are misleading them again.  You know it and God knows it.

All the arrogance and sly innuendos in the world won't change the facts.  You have nothing.  You cannot prove something that the IRS couldn't prove and by finding nothing, they had more to lose than anyone.  If the investigation wasn't truly over, they would have been all over 3abn for saying it was.

I guess like Pickle, your power of reasoning and common sense have blown right out the window, along with, your witnessess, your financial allegations and your defense case.   The very fact that you called me "dear" shows me something is baaad wrong.

SAM,
 Time will be the final arbiter here, but you are OH, SO WRONG regarding what we have. We have enouigh in the quiver to put up a formidable defense and we are adding to the quiver every day, despite your best effort to prevent discovery.

SAM, if you want credibility, I would recommend you take "your calling" seriously and investigate the pastoral misconduct claims against Tommy Ray Shelton and report back. Then I would like you to face your creator and pretend we HAVE NOTHING!!! Hope you have experience dodging lightening bolts.

For the rest of the quiver you will have to come to trial. But in the interim, explain what the auditor has that you do not want us to get our hands on.

Gailon Arthur Joy
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Gregory

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2008, 10:15:38 AM »

I will make a comment on the process that is not directed to any specific person.

The judicial (legal) system exists to make decisions in regard to the law.  It is not designed to settle moral issues of right and wrong.  It does not deal with spritiual issues.  It provides a definative answer as to what the law requires and whether or not an individual has complied with what the law requires.

1) The investigation by the IRS of 3-ABN and/or Danny Sheltion (I am uncertain as to the exact boundaries of the investigation.) has dwelt with only one issue:  Did the investigated parties properly file the required IRS forms and if there were errors in their filing were those errors of a magnitude that would require either civil penalities or criminal prosecution.  This IRS investigation has no direct bearing on any of the other issues that have been alleged--sexual misconduct, termination of Linda Shelton, constitution of the 3-ABN Board and much more.

A resonable person who understands our legal system and the IRS process would conclude that the IRS investigation failed to discover by the proponderence of the evidence that either 3-ABN or Danny Shelton committed any violation of the IRS rules and the law that would require either civil penalties or criminal prosecution.  Folks, if you do not meet the requirement of the proponderence of the evidence, which is the lowest standard, you simply do not have a case.  For a criminal prosecution one would be required to have supporting evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt."  No person who understands what the law requires would ever be able to say that the "evidence" presented in these Internet fourms met the required legal standards.

2)  Yes, there are a lot of allegations that have been made in regard to 3-AND Danny Shelton that have not been considered by the IRS investigation.  There are allegations that are included in the litigation filed against Joy and Pickle that are not covered by the IRS investigation.  Those have not been settled by any objective body.

But, the IRS appears to  have settled the issues under its venue.  As such, the question now is what is to be  done with the other allegations.

First, any other allegations will need to be settled in others venues if such exist and if the stattute of limitations does not apply.  If the stattute has run its course, there is likely to be no other judicial/civil remedy to settle those allegations.

I am one who believes that there is not venue whereby those allegations could be settled outside of the civil/judicial arena.  So, if that is closed, I do not see any other arena in which those who have charged people with wrong doing can seek relief.

3) However, the apparent closure of the IRS investigation, with no apparent finding of either civil or criminal wrong doing looks like a fatal development for the defendents in the ongoing litigation.

First:  The alligation of civil and/or criminal wrong doing as it related to IRS issues now appears to be incorrect.  As this was an important part of the litigation, it looks like those who filed the litigation are likely to prevail in this aspect.  It, in my thinking, increases the lilkelyhood that they will prevail, at least in part in a judgement for libel, slander and defamination of character.

Second:  The apparent failure of the IRS investigation to find either civil or criminal   wrong doing as it related to IRS issues casts doubt in the other charges that have been made against 3-ABN and others.  If one was wrong in this important area why would one be assumed to be riight in other areas?

4) In the time that has passed since it has been announced that the IRS investigation was finished I have read a lot of responses that have attempted to rebut the announcement.  Many of those rebuttals presented the one who wrote them as "grasping at straws" and logically insufficient.  Many of them were simply of no value as far as settleing anything is concerned.

5) So, where do we go from here?  As I said once before:  Gailon is astute enough to read the legal tea leaves lying in the bottom of the tea cup.  He will know what to do.  Bob needs to see if he can untangle himself from the situation he is in.  I have a strong feeling that the ones who have filed the litigation would be willing to allow him to do so if he approached them.  I say that because in reading one brief that they filed I saw some humanity on their part in that they did not, in my opinon, come down on him as hard as they might have done.

6) For the rest of the people,they may just have to let things go.  In this life some wrongs are never exposed.  Righteousness does not always rule.  It just may be that there are other alligations that were as wrong as the caims of civil and/or criminal wroing doing in IRS issues were wroing.

7) In summary: The current situation, as I see it, strikes a fatal blow to the raft of alligations that have been made.  I do not see it as being helpful to any one to continue grasping as straws as I see some doing.  Some people are simply going to have to "get over it."

NOTE:  The fatal flaw, in my thinking, in much of this, is that those who made the IRS alligations never knew the evidence that 3-ABN had to support their position of innocence.  They only had one side of the picture and that is not enough.
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Cindy

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2008, 10:24:57 AM »

Sam,

Not sure why you are insisting that the IRS exoneration story is a proven fact, when Duffy himself didn't say that the IRS had said it was over. Why are you going out on on a limb like that?

Remember, Duffy is the attorney who claimed common law copyright protection for his letter of January 30, 2007, so he isn't always correct. And as far as his representing 3ABN in the IRS investigation, Jerrie Hayes told us in January that she didn't know who was representing 3ABN in that, and they are from the same law firm.

Wrong and wrong.

Read it again: http://www.3abntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11#p22

Hint: Max Carr-Howard of the firm Husch Blackwell Sanders represented 3abn and DS in the IRS Investigation.



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Cindy

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2008, 10:33:29 AM »

I will make a comment on the process that is not directed to any specific person.

The judicial (legal) system exists to make decisions in regard to the law.  It is not designed to settle moral issues of right and wrong.  It does not deal with spritiual issues.  It provides a definative answer as to what the law requires and whether or not an individual has complied with what the law requires.

1) The investigation by the IRS of 3-ABN and/or Danny Sheltion (I am uncertain as to the exact boundaries of the investigation.) has dwelt with only one issue:  Did the investigated parties properly file the required IRS forms and if there were errors in their filing were those errors of a magnitude that would require either civil penalities or criminal prosecution.  This IRS investigation has no direct bearing on any of the other issues that have been alleged--sexual misconduct, termination of Linda Shelton, constitution of the 3-ABN Board and much more.

A resonable person who understands our legal system and the IRS process would conclude that the IRS investigation failed to discover by the proponderence of the evidence that either 3-ABN or Danny Shelton committed any violation of the IRS rules and the law that would require either civil penalties or criminal prosecution.  Folks, if you do not meet the requirement of the proponderence of the evidence, which is the lowest standard, you simply do not have a case.  For a criminal prosecution one would be required to have supporting evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt."  No person who understands what the law requires would ever be able to say that the "evidence" presented in these Internet fourms met the required legal standards.

2)  Yes, there are a lot of allegations that have been made in regard to 3-AND Danny Shelton that have not been considered by the IRS investigation.  There are allegations that are included in the litigation filed against Joy and Pickle that are not covered by the IRS investigation.  Those have not been settled by any objective body.

But, the IRS appears to  have settled the issues under its venue.  As such, the question now is what is to be  done with the other allegations.

First, any other allegations will need to be settled in others venues if such exist and if the stattute of limitations does not apply.  If the stattute has run its course, there is likely to be no other judicial/civil remedy to settle those allegations.

I am one who believes that there is not venue whereby those allegations could be settled outside of the civil/judicial arena.  So, if that is closed, I do not see any other arena in which those who have charged people with wrong doing can seek relief.

3) However, the apparent closure of the IRS investigation, with no apparent finding of either civil or criminal wrong doing looks like a fatal development for the defendents in the ongoing litigation.

First:  The alligation of civil and/or criminal wrong doing as it related to IRS issues now appears to be incorrect.  As this was an important part of the litigation, it looks like those who filed the litigation are likely to prevail in this aspect.  It, in my thinking, increases the lilkelyhood that they will prevail, at least in part in a judgement for libel, slander and defamination of character.

Second:  The apparent failure of the IRS investigation to find either civil or criminal   wrong doing as it related to IRS issues casts doubt in the other charges that have been made against 3-ABN and others.  If one was wrong in this important area why would one be assumed to be riight in other areas?

4) In the time that has passed since it has been announced that the IRS investigation was finished I have read a lot of responses that have attempted to rebut the announcement.  Many of those rebuttals presented the one who wrote them as "grasping at straws" and logically insufficient.  Many of them were simply of no value as far as settleing anything is concerned.

5) So, where do we go from here?  As I said once before:  Gailon is astute enough to read the legal tea leaves lying in the bottom of the tea cup.  He will know what to do.  Bob needs to see if he can untangle himself from the situation he is in.  I have a strong feeling that the ones who have filed the litigation would be willing to allow him to do so if he approached them.  I say that because in reading one brief that they filed I saw some humanity on their part in that they did not, in my opinon, come down on him as hard as they might have done.

6) For the rest of the people,they may just have to let things go.  In this life some wrongs are never exposed.  Righteousness does not always rule.  It just may be that there are other alligations that were as wrong as the caims of civil and/or criminal wroing doing in IRS issues were wroing.

7) In summary: The current situation, as I see it, strikes a fatal blow to the raft of alligations that have been made.  I do not see it as being helpful to any one to continue grasping as straws as I see some doing.  Some people are simply going to have to "get over it."

NOTE:  The fatal flaw, in my thinking, in much of this, is that those who made the IRS alligations never knew the evidence that 3-ABN had to support their position of innocence.  They only had one side of the picture and that is not enough.

Well said. Thank you Gregory.

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reddogs

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2008, 10:51:55 AM »

Oncer upon a time a man was seriously hurt in a brawl , and he lay there bleeding by the wayside. The first person passing by was a deacon in the church. He slowed down enough to see there had been some kind of a fight, and he realized the man left on the battleground was badly hurt, and yet he did not think a deacon should get involved, since he was only a innocent bystander who has no dogs in this hunt.

Shortly after a pastor passed by. Neither did he think it was appropriate he should get involved. "God sees it," he reasoned, "You cannot hide anything from Him. God knows who is innocent, and nothing I do will change that."

Anything similar to a story Christ once told?

Rick, you state that "our duty is to go by the process we are given," and I agree with you. It so happens that I witnessed how a woman, Linda Shelton, was left bleeding by the wayside by false accusations by her husband and his associates who believed in him. Since I know nothing about taxes, finances, nor the affairs of Tommy, I have nothing to say about those things. An exoneration by the IRS cannot change what I have seen and experienced. Neither what Sam, Ian, nor others who support Danny say, can change that. Yes, forgiveness could change a lot, but as long as there is no word in that direction, an exoneration seems at a far distance.

You have not seen and experiences what I have, and I cannot demand of you that you take my word for it. That is your own choice.

Your brother in Christ
Johann Thorvaldsson, first employed by the SDA church in 1951, and most of the time since then.




Johann,

 I can see you understand what Christianity is all about....I do not know all the facts of this 3ABN saga, and dont consider myself any 'better' at helping than the next man, and thus can only help as I come across them, if I get a chance to help Linda I will do it. Right now, as any good paramedic or 'samaritan' I am helping all the injured, not picking and choosing.....whether sinner or saints that is not for me to decide on, I leave that to the divine..


Rick
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 01:20:41 PM by reddogs »
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2008, 12:15:23 PM »

3) However, the apparent closure of the IRS investigation, with no apparent finding of either civil or criminal wrong doing looks like a fatal development for the defendents in the ongoing litigation.

Gregory, I do not understand your reasoning here. First of all, there has been no confirmation that the IRS investigation is over, and it seems to be to be irresponsible to base conclusions on mere assumptions.

Secondly, there is no fatal development, for Danny still claimed to have falsified a figure on his 2003 tax return, and he still bought a house in 1998 from 3ABN at below fair market value.

But one must back up and take a look at what the complaint actually says, and what the Defendants actually said. Unless the Plaintiffs can prove that the Defendants actually said what the complaint claims they said, the fatal nature of the case is on the Plaintiffs' side, not the Defendants' side.

And again, I would appreciate it if you keep your opinions of what I ought to do to yourself. But I already told you that. In other words, I absolutely refuse to lie, and I would rather lose all I have than lie.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2008, 12:17:01 PM »

Sam,

Not sure why you are insisting that the IRS exoneration story is a proven fact, when Duffy himself didn't say that the IRS had said it was over. Why are you going out on on a limb like that?

Remember, Duffy is the attorney who claimed common law copyright protection for his letter of January 30, 2007, so he isn't always correct. And as far as his representing 3ABN in the IRS investigation, Jerrie Hayes told us in January that she didn't know who was representing 3ABN in that, and they are from the same law firm.

Wrong and wrong.

Read it again: http://www.3abntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11#p22

Hint: Max Carr-Howard of the firm Husch Blackwell Sanders represented 3abn and DS in the IRS Investigation.

Did I say Max didn't? Are you saying that Duffy didn't, which would contradict the very letter you are asking me to read?

And are you suggesting that Duffy did not claim common law copyright protection for his letter of Jan. 30, 2007?
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Gregory

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2008, 12:54:25 PM »

I am inserting my response to Bob in the body of his comment and in [ ] with my initials added to my comment.



Gregory, I do not understand your reasoning here. First of all, there has been no confirmation that the IRS investigation is over, and it seems to be to be irresponsible to base conclusions on mere assumptions.

[Yes, Bob, I fully understand that you do not understand.  Therefore, I do not expect you to agree with me. As to my basing my opinion on a "mere assumption,"  hardly.  But, I do not expect you to agree with that either.  My conclusion is based upon more that a mere assumption.  But, I am not required to convince you or anyone else of that.  So accept or reject my opinion as you will--GM.]

Secondly, there is no fatal development, for Danny still claimed to have falsified a figure on his 2003 tax return, and he still bought a house in 1998 from 3ABN at below fair market value.

[If you do not understand that the IRS development is a fatal development for you, you simply demonstrate the level on which you evaulate legal issues.  Your stataement that Danny claimed to have falsified a figure on his 2003 tax retun is likely to be your intrepretation.  I do not think that any reasonable person would believe that Danny would openlly claim to have falsified his tax return.  You may be entitled to claim that such is what Danny did.  But, the current IRS development would lead a reasonable person to beleive that you are wrong.  Your continued assertation of such is likely to cast doubt in the minds of reasonable people about other things you say.  As to your claim in regard to the house,  You have not, in your public statements, properly factored in the "life estate" which has been claimed to be a part of this--GM.]

But one must back up and take a look at what the complaint actually says, and what the Defendants actually said. Unless the Plaintiffs can prove that the Defendants actually said what the complaint claims they said, the fatal nature of the case is on the Plaintiffs' side, not the Defendants' side.

[Sometimes convictions are obtained on the basis of what the defendants inferred--GM.]

And again, I would appreciate it if you keep your opinions of what I ought to do to yourself. But I already told you that. In other words, I absolutely refuse to lie, and I would rather lose all I have than lie.

[Bob, no one has asked you to lie.  As to my opinion, you have told me that I am unethical to state an opinon and not support it.  Bob, I do not  have to document why I have an opinon.  This is a  public forum.  As long as you post here and are part of the discussion, I will comment on your posts and the situation you are in,  as I decide to  do.  If you do not like my stating my opinion, I can live with that and you will have to live with me commenting on your situation--GM.]


Bob,  there are probably a number of people who do not like what you have said about them.  Life is tough sometimes.  They will have to live with what you say and you will have to live with what I say.  You can comment, but you know that as you do I shall respond as I see fit.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2008, 01:26:03 PM »

Gregory,

Danny stated in April 2005 in writing that he had claimed on his 2003 tax return that a donation of property was a donation of cash. No one has produced any evidence from the IRS or anyone else to demonstrate that he in fact did not do what he said he did. Interpretations have nothing to do with it.

I have made comments about the life estate, more than once. 3ABN still reported the sale in 1998 as a loss, as below fair market value, and yet Danny denied that a section 4958 excess benefit transaction took place. Duffy's letter indicates that 3ABN did not produce any records going back to 1998, so even if this IRS story were true, it apparently has nothing to do with the real estate deal.

If the Plaintiffs ask me to say that certain things were false when they weren't, that is asking me to lie.
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Fran

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2008, 01:40:56 PM »

Just Checking in.  I have NOT heard ANYTHING about everything being over.  I haven't heard from the IRS in over a week.  In my opinion, it is not "completely" over.  Just my $ .02.
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Maxey

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2008, 02:02:21 PM »

And I know how totally "off topic" this may be but can't help myself.  http://youtube.com/watch?v=CT7x3VnrqbA

I'm so filled with hope when I see youth taking back the arts for God I want to stand up and applaud. 

Please enjoy and think on things that are really important.

Maxey

 
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reddogs

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2008, 02:31:11 PM »

Gregory,

Danny stated in April 2005 in writing that he had claimed on his 2003 tax return that a donation of property was a donation of cash. No one has produced any evidence from the IRS or anyone else to demonstrate that he in fact did not do what he said he did. Interpretations have nothing to do with it.

I have made comments about the life estate, more than once. 3ABN still reported the sale in 1998 as a loss, as below fair market value, and yet Danny denied that a section 4958 excess benefit transaction took place. Duffy's letter indicates that 3ABN did not produce any records going back to 1998, so even if this IRS story were true, it apparently has nothing to do with the real estate deal.

If the Plaintiffs ask me to say that certain things were false when they weren't, that is asking me to lie.

Bob,

These kind of things go on in business all the time, if they were not honest and ethical in these small matters, well you can see were I am going. But the damage that is being inflicted and spread all around is being projected far wider than it merits and even you can imagine. This thing has got to stop, as no one is being helped by what is occuring now, its not for correcting a wrong by a individual or two, now it seems its purpose has reached the point of total destruction of the opposing camps. We need to stop, take a look at the extent this has reached and stop the bloodletting, the 'crime' will never fit the 'punishment' at this point, we need to help the wounded and those hurt by this saga and go on. There is a time to go through the process and apply the 'law', and then there is the time to see there is no longer a point in it and apply mercy as Christ shows us in John 8 and work on saving those involved....

Rick

John 8
 1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
   But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
 11"No one, sir," she said.
      "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

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Bob Pickle

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Re: 3ABN exonerated by IRS investigation
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2008, 03:08:52 PM »

Rick,

See if you can talk to 3ABN/Danny and get them to throw in the towel.

But note that there are bigger issues. Sam has asserted that Gilley plans on getting Danny back into the presidency. Has Danny repudiated John Lomacang's theology that Danny is the Lord's anointed and cannot be corrected by any human being? That is pretty serious. Do we really want someone who buys into that sort of heresy operating a ministry as big and influential as 3ABN?

Moreover, such a move would be unprecedented in the history of our denomination. When have we ever had someone accused of sexual assault, private inurement, unbiblical divorce, wrongfully terminating folks, filing a frivolous lawsuit, covering up child molestation allegations, lying about so many different things, and he still gets to continue on as if nothing happened? Without apologies, without restitution, and without dropping the frivolous lawsuit he started!
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