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[Pat Williams]

So Pat,

Sad to say, some of the people whose names Pastor Dryden released to the internet group, are now going through character assassination themselves because of their statements, by people who knew them "way back when" and have reason to doubt their testimony. His actions of hurt are far more reaching than just "bringing me down."

You going to do the right thing and denounce what Tommy is describing, or are you going to help Tommy's threat become more of a reality?

It is wrong to assassinate the character of the victims of sexual misconduct and child molestation, don't you agree?

That statement by Tommy very clearly comes across to me as an attempt to silence those concerned about his misconduct, rather than an attempt to come clean and apologize and make things right.

Edited:..

Please reread my previous post.

Call it what you will. I know and God knows that setting the record straight and correcting lies is NOT "smearing and attacking a victim". I just provided quotes from what you yourself put on line, Robert Pickle from both DC himself and TS.

But as far as the casualties of war go in this war you and Joy have waged? They have been many,I would like to draw attention to the following from TS's letter, and to the last paragraph specifically and leave you with that thought.

[Murcielago]

That is messed up. Again, an example of why victims most often remain silent and allow the aggressor to go on and victimize again and again. A child doesn't necessarily see the age of the other victim who is talking and being ripped apart, they often only see themselves in that person's shoes.

Sad to say, some of the people whose names Pastor Dryden released to the internet group, are now going through character assassination themselves because of their statements, by people who knew them "way back when" and have reason to doubt their testimony. His actions of hurt are far more reaching than just "bringing me down."

[Alex L. Walker]

That is messed up. Again, an example of why victims most often remain silent and allow the aggressor to go on and victimize again and again. A child doesn't necessarily see the age of the other victim who is talking and being ripped apart, they often only see themselves in that person's shoes.

Sad to say, some of the people whose names Pastor Dryden released to the internet group, are now going through character assassination themselves because of their statements, by people who knew them "way back when" and have reason to doubt their testimony. His actions of hurt are far more reaching than just "bringing me down."

I am thankful that there are those who stand in full support as well. Words cannot express the gratitude that I have for so many people that have showed their continuous support. Many of those I do not even know personally, but God does. Without people like this it would be next to impossible to keep your sanity through it all.

I am reminded of the old saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones (but words will never hurt me)." I am here to tell you there is absolutley no truth in that. Sticks and stones will break your bones, but words hurt even worse. They cut you deeper than anything else. 

[ex3abnemployee]

No princessdi I am saying Gailon is full of air. There is no legal case not only because Clem was a consenting adult, but there is no "sexual harrassment/abuse case because TS NEVER abused his postion of authority." When it occured TS wasn't Clem's Pastor, wasn't his boss, he had no position of authority over him at all. Did you even read the post you are replying to?

You can say "I am pretty positive that the emotional and psychological abuse started when Duane was a minor." from now until judgment day but it doesn't make it so. Even Clem doesn't say that. Read what I quoted from Clem again. Unless you are calling him a liar, or he suddenly wishes to change his story, you have no call to say that, much less be pretty sure of it.

It's hard giving up preconceived notions, and beliefs, but when they are false. IT is necessary.

All I was trying to say is there is no legal case, criminal nor civil when it comes to Duane Clem.

No it wasn't right, but that's a moral call.

NO, I am not defending a child abuser, nor attacking victims of child molestion here. ok?

OK, so here is what I was thinking.............Pat said that Duane had no claims against TS because, you all fee he was a consenting adult, the second he turned at, right?  But I think he still would have a claim, not for pedophilia, but for sexual harrassment/abuse, because TS abused his postion of authority.  Even if nothing happened, "physically"(which Duane said it did,a nd I believe him....he is the victim), but they is didn't, I am pretty positive that the emotional and psychological abuse started when Duane was a minor.  

Also, adults can and do claim sexual harrassment/abuse.  Statute of limitations notwithstanding, I think Duane would have a pretty good chance going that route.....but I am not a lawyer.  Someboey with some legal knowledge..........not those whot hink they have the knowledge....somebody with the actual knowledge.....help me out here........

Pat Williams, again  I say you are a liar. Abuse DID occur while Tommy Shelton was my pastor. Stop slandering me.

[Bob Pickle]

So Pat,

Sad to say, some of the people whose names Pastor Dryden released to the internet group, are now going through character assassination themselves because of their statements, by people who knew them "way back when" and have reason to doubt their testimony. His actions of hurt are far more reaching than just "bringing me down."

You going to do the right thing and denounce what Tommy is describing, or are you going to help Tommy's threat become more of a reality?

It is wrong to assassinate the character of the victims of sexual misconduct and child molestation, don't you agree?

That statement by Tommy very clearly comes across to me as an attempt to silence those concerned about his misconduct, rather than an attempt to come clean and apologize and make things right.

Edited:..

Please reread my previous post.

Call it what you will. I know and God knows that setting the record straight and correcting lies is NOT "smearing and attacking a victim". I just provided quotes from what you yourself put on line, Robert Pickle from both DC himself and TS.

But as far as the casualties of war go in this war you and Joy have waged? They have been many,I would like to draw attention to the following from TS's letter, and to the last paragraph specifically and leave you with that thought.

I read it well the first time. Now be a man as well as a Christian, and do the right thing. Say that Tommy was wrong in saying that.

Tell us, how many of those that have tried to assassinate Tommy's unfortunate victims has Tommy reprimanded? Why doesn't his open letter tell the world what he has personally done to get the assassinaters to stop?

And if Tommy's victims are a bit dysfunctional, did not Tommy help make them that way? Or did Tommy particularly prey on those with problems so that nobody would believe them if they ratted on him?

I seem to recall a particularly perverse threat that one of Tommy's victims told me Tommy made to him as a youth if he told what Tommy did to him. The whole scandal is pretty sick, but you certainly make it worse when you bring up stuff like this.

[Pat Williams]

No princessdi I am saying Gailon is full of air. There is no legal case not only because Clem was a consenting adult, but there is no "sexual harrassment/abuse case because TS NEVER abused his postion of authority." When it occured TS wasn't Clem's Pastor, wasn't his boss, he had no position of authority over him at all. Did you even read the post you are replying to?

You can say "I am pretty positive that the emotional and psychological abuse started when Duane was a minor." from now until judgment day but it doesn't make it so. Even Clem doesn't say that. Read what I quoted from Clem again. Unless you are calling him a liar, or he suddenly wishes to change his story, you have no call to say that, much less be pretty sure of it.

It's hard giving up preconceived notions, and beliefs, but when they are false. IT is necessary.

All I was trying to say is there is no legal case, criminal nor civil when it comes to Duane Clem.

No it wasn't right, but that's a moral call.

NO, I am not defending a child abuser, nor attacking victims of child molestion here. ok?

Pat Williams, again  I say you are a liar. Abuse DID occur while Tommy Shelton was my pastor. Stop slandering me.

Duane Clem,  I was originally just quoting you. Now if I have something wrong you should say what it is. I asked you to do so and you refused.

Liar.. Liar.. by itself doesn't work here. What are you claiming I lied about?

I asked you that too, and you refused to answer.

Now you come back and call me a liar again and say "Abuse DID occur while Tommy Shelton was my Pastor. Stop slandering me."

Are you playing games here? What do you mean?

Do you mean "Abuse of myself DID occur while Tommy Shelton was my pastor."

or

Do you mean Abuse of others DID occur while Tommy Shelton was my pastor.

Earlier you said "Some of the abuse occurred while he was my Pastor"

What abuse, when?  Please explain for all. as well as myself. I really don't want to believe a lie about somebody, nor do I want to bear false witness, but you have to help me here, please.


It's not just me you are answering for you know. Others also are probably wondering as you don't explain. If you have something to say, just say it! I don't mind. I would like to know what you are talking about.

Don't speak on my behalf. Some of the abuse did happen when Tommy was my pastor. You don't know what you're talking about...again.

When? All I did was quote you and him, You said nothing happened before late 1985, early 1986.  He resigned as Pastor Sept 15, 1985.

You need to read my full statement as well. You'll see that "Pat Williams" is incorrect.

I've read it. I was quoting it. http://www.save-3abn.com/tommy-shelton-victim-duane-clem-statement.htm  What part do I have incorrect? Don't make people guess.  Just explain what you are saying, Duane.

I'm not explaining anything to you. You're lying and you know it. That's the bottom line.

Anyone who attended Ezra during the aforementioned time period can confirm that you are wrong.

edited to explain more and add quote.

[Johann]

This is the first time I have seen that letter by Tommy. It sounds like a desperate cry from a man in an attempt to clear himself of the wrong things he has done. It reminds me very much of how his younger brother, Danny has throughout the past six years attempted to project any mistake he has made over on others. And some people accept all of this as words of truth.

I recall when Danny wrote to me that since God could use murderers like Moses and David then he could also use him. To me that seemed to be an indication he had also dome some of those things he had mentioned about Moses and David. I wrote back to him that the difference is that the acts of Moses and David are recorded. They did not deny what they had done, but asked forgiveness. I told Danny that God and others would also forgive him if he would acknowledge in stead of denying. I understood him as saying that if he admitted the bad things he had done that would hurt 3ABN. That seemed to be the reason he gave that it should not be revealed, whatever it was.

Tommy and his spin doctors seem to have a similar idea, especially in the way they are "attacking" or "downgrading" the victims. Is that the Christian way of doing things? According to the gospel?

[Pat Williams]

You are not the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit woo's and speaks softly and gently, not bossy and arrogant and demanding like yourself.

I read it well the first time. Now be a man as well as a Christian, and do the right thing. Say that Tommy was wrong in saying that....

[ex3abnemployee]

Tommy abused me while he was my pastor. That's all you're getting. O suggest you tone down the attitude when you speak to me.  I'm in no mood for your arrogance.

[princessdi]

No princessdi I am saying Gailon is full of air. There is no legal case not only because Clem was a consenting adult, but there is no "sexual harrassment/abuse case because TS NEVER abused his postion of authority." When it occured TS wasn't Clem's Pastor, wasn't his boss, he had no position of authority over him at all. Did you even read the post you are replying to?

Yes, I read it, and Duane's reply that he said something "did" happen when he when he was a minor. he's the victim, he was there, I gotta to with him on this one.  

And sorry but anyone in authority can abuse their position, and it is not only with children.  That also factors in a lot of the time with women, grown women in sexual harrassment cases involving those in authority over them, bosses, clergy, etc.  It is part of the copnsideration when a grown women is abuse by clergy when they go for counseling or normal intereaction with clergy.   They have won their cases, because pastors are considered to be in authority over their entire congregation, and those who might not be in their congregation but come to them for help because of their position of authority.  Plus he doesn't have to be "his" pastor, just a pastor and that office carries a position of authority.  I know I treat all pastors, not only mine, with the authority of that office.  We take them at their word because of that position.  We give them more than the usual amount of trust because of that position, right?  He didn't have to be "his" pastor at the time.  He was sttill in authority over Duane by the nature of his office.  Your point is, therfore, moot.

But let's just also go with your scenario.  TS was Duane's pastor, a trusted, beloved, and respected pastor. So much so that he went to bat for him.  That love, trust and respect did not stop when TS was no longer Duane's pastor.  Duane respected, as he should have, the office of pastor and the position of authority it carried...........once again TS did not have to still be his pastor.  The pastor/member relationship was already established while TS was his pastor and it continued.  Still being a pastor, TS was still in a position of authority over Duane....even after he turned eighteen, it was the position of authority, love, and trust respect that was maintained.  TS violated every last one of the parts of that appropriate relationship, in favor of a relationship that was totally inappropriate.


Now, with all of that being said, can I get somebody with some legal experience and/or knowledge to answer my question?

You can say "I am pretty positive that the emotional and psychological abuse started when Duane was a minor." from now until judgment day but it doesn't make it so. Even Clem doesn't say that. Read what I quoted from Clem again. Unless you are calling him a liar, or he suddenly wishes to change his story, you have no call to say that, much less be pretty sure of it.

He doesn't have to say it if you know anything about how abuse occurs.  Physical and sexual abuse is always accompanied by emotional and mental abuse.  They have to tear down the defenses of their victims in order to keep them in a state to "allow" the physical and/or sexual abuse.........that is basically Abuse 101.


It's hard giving up preconceived notions, and beliefs, but when they are false. IT is necessary.

All I was trying to say is there is no legal case, criminal nor civil when it comes to Duane Clem.

No it wasn't right, but that's a moral call.

NO, I am not defending a child abuser, nor attacking victims of child molestion here. ok?

And I was only saying that there might be a case, barring the statute of limitations.  

And I am saying that barring the stateutes of limitation, there maybe a legal case for the reasons I have stated about.  It can be both a moral and legal issue.  

Pat, when a victim of child abuse tells you he was abused as a child and you call him a liar....you are attacking a victim of child abuse.  

[Bob Pickle]

Your response is inappropriate. When someone points out a valid problem, it is inappropriate to attack the person instead of acknowledging the point.

Go ahead, be a man and a Christian, and admit that Tommy was wrong in saying that, and in not telling the assassinators he knew about to cool it. It is evil and wicked to try to assassinate the characters of those you know were the victims of iniquitous practices, and it is evil and wicked for the perpetrator to just stand by and let it happen without protest.

Tommy should have brought forth fruits meet for repentance by coming down harder on the assasinators than he came down on Dryden in that letter. He missed a golden opportunity.

You are not the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit woo's and speaks softly and gently, not bossy and arrogant and demanding like yourself.

I read it well the first time. Now be a man as well as a Christian, and do the right thing. Say that Tommy was wrong in saying that....

[Pat Williams]

Duane, see this is what I was talking about before and how you interjecting yourself into the child molestation topics and talking about being a victim confuses people.

Could you please explain here and clear up the confusion?

 Did you say something occurred when you were a minor? because Princessdi says you did and she's gotto go with what you say...

Yes, I read it, and Duane's reply that he said something "did" happen when he when he was a minor. he's the victim, he was there, I gotta to with him on this one.  

And because of that she is now also falsely accusing me of attacking a victim of child abuse after "you" a victim of child abuse told "me" that you were abused as a child. Now how sad is this?

Pat, when a victim of child abuse tells you he was abused as a child and you call him a liar....you are attacking a victim of child abuse.  [/color]

[mrst53]

This is the 1st time I have seen a letter mentioning Brother and Sister Wood. Is there anyway, I can see the full letter?

[Pat Williams]

Your response is inappropriate. When someone points out a valid problem, it is inappropriate to attack the person instead of acknowledging the point.

Well then you should really stop doing that, Robert Pickle.

Go ahead, be a man and a Christian, and admit that Tommy was wrong in saying that, and in not telling the assassinators he knew about to cool it. It is evil and wicked to try to assassinate the characters of those you know were the victims of iniquitous practices, and it is evil and wicked for the perpetrator to just stand by and let it happen without protest.

Well that was most likely why he was calling it sad, and saying they were being victimized. He didn't say he knew who those doing so were,  Bob. I doubt he did. You added that part to condemn him because you are an accuser and always believe the worst of all people. You might try asking for help with that. It's not good.

Tommy should have brought forth fruits meet for repentance by coming down harder on the assasinators than he came down on Dryden in that letter. He missed a golden opportunity.

And the beat goes on...

You are not the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit woo's and speaks softly and gently, not bossy and arrogant and demanding like yourself.

I read it well the first time. Now be a man as well as a Christian, and do the right thing. Say that Tommy was wrong in saying that....

[/quote]

[Pat Williams]

This is the 1st time I have seen a letter mentioning Brother and Sister Wood. Is there anyway, I can see the full letter?

It's post #253 and you have to scroll down about a third of the page to get to it.

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11955&view=findpost&p=179087