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[anyman]

Not being lazy at all Mr. Robert Pickle. Many have come here and other forums and discussed the responsibility of the clergy, doctors, psychiatrists, counselors, educators, day care providers, etc to report anything they feel needs to be reported to the appropriate authorities . . .

You claimed to be a member of the clergy

You demean others who you feel did not deal with a situation you felt needed to be

However . . . at the same time you didn't do anything with the information you had except to use it to tear down a Gospel ministry and the people involved in that ministry. You didn't go to the authorities . . . but you did immediately run and use the information that was given you to tear down God's ministry and the people who worked there.

Your new focus on demanding that I cite a legal statute seems to be just another attempt to divert and avoid answering the question. Let's say, for the sake of debate here, that there isn't a specific statute in Minnesota requiring clergy to report suspected cases of abuse . . . if we are going to hold you to the same type of Christian behavior that you are demanding of everyone else - well, then you should have gone above and beyond and you didn't. If your concern was for the so-called "victims" you wouldn't have let anything stand in your way in order ot advocate for them . . . instead you didn't bother, you used it to attack the Gospel ministry and those spreading God's word to the world.

Why were you derelict in your duty?

There is no legal research involved ....

You can't have it both ways. If no research is needed, then quit asking the question. If you think you need to ask the question, then by all means cite the statute that spells out what my duty was.

Don't be lazy.

[GRAT]

What a load of BS which stands for Bull Stuff or Bull Smelly or Bull Stinky or Bull Whatever - Get the point?  You can't change what initials stand for, people will read what is accepted that they stand for.   

And this is what opens the back door wide open and ushers so many new converts right out the back door. Have you taken a look at the "retention" statistics within the N. American Seventh-day Adventist Church? We love to get them in, then we fail to love them . . . and this is a prime example of what that looks like . . . Can you image Jesus responding as you have - STOP! take a minute, don't respond, don't accuse me of being pious answer the question in your head - would Jesus say what you just did? Simple question.

What I can't imagine Jesus doing is using His Fathers name in the manner it was used.  Why didn't you ask Petunia if Jesus would say what she did?  Don't give me the "Oh My Goodness" either.  Not buying that and can't imagine Jesus saying that either.  I went to Adventist Academy and am just too old to fall for your guilt trip.   

I can also not imagine Jesus defending someone who sexually violates children and or young adults.   

[Child_of_God]

Some here delight in pointing out things that they believe to be using God’s name in vain and show disdain for anyone doing such. There is more to that commandment than that. Taking the Lord’s name in vain is to say you are one thing, such as Christian, a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, and at the same time behaving and speaking in ways that are unchristian, in no way doing and saying as He did and said. His name is His character. Remember when Jesus pointed out that while some thought their father was Abraham that they were really of another father. They were in actuality not following the ways of Abraham but the fallen one instead and they could not and would not see that. They looked for flaws and sins in others instead of looking for their own flaws and sins. They continued on the same as they had been and ended up killing the Son of God. Whatever we do or say to our fellow man is the same as doing or saying it to our Lord Jesus. It is something to think about huh?

[Bob Pickle]

Not being lazy at all Mr. Robert Pickle.

Sure you are. Don't fib.

Many have come here and other forums and discussed the responsibility of the clergy, doctors, psychiatrists, counselors, educators, day care providers, etc to report anything they feel needs to be reported to the appropriate authorities . . .

Have you forgotten? I don't take people's word for things, regardless of which side they're on. If you want to discuss what my duty was, then cite the statute you are referring to.

Let's say, for the sake of debate here, that there isn't a specific statute in Minnesota requiring clergy to report suspected cases of abuse . . . if we are going to hold you to the same type of Christian behavior that you are demanding of everyone else - well, then you should have gone above and beyond and you didn't.

You sound as if you don't know whether there is such a statute or not.

You sound as if you think checking out both sides of the story is going above and beyond the call of duty. Go ask your pastor or conference secretary or conference president, and they will tell you that only talking to the alleged perpetrator and his factually challenged brother could result in massive liability.

[Bob Pickle]

Taking the Lord’s name in vain is to say you are one thing, such as Christian, a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, and at the same time behaving and speaking in ways that are unchristian, in no way doing and saying as He did and said.

Those who keep defending the cover up of child molestation allegations are not behaving and speaking like He who said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me."

[Bob Pickle]

For those readers who aren't sure what Tommy Shelton was accused of doing, here's is the statement of Pastor Brad Dunning taken from http://www.save-3abn.com/tommy-shelton-victim-brad-dunning.htm.

For those who want to condemn the alleged victims for not doing more, take note that the explanation Tommy Shelton is alleged to have told at the time is that Brad was trying to get other boys into homosexual activity, and Tommy was trying to bring it out in the open by propositioning him. But Brad never knew Tommy was saying anything like that about him.

-------- Original Message --------
From:     Brad Dunning
Subject:     RE: Here's my email, Pastor Dunning.
Date:     Thu, 4 Jan 2007 16:09:11 -0600

Dear Bob,

Here is my follow up email from our telephone conversation yesterday January 3rd, 2007.

The purpose of this communication is to give you a personal account of how I was assaulted by Tommy Shelton, then Pastor of the Ezra Church of God.

I believe it was in the 1982-83 school year. I was a student in the Ezra Church of God Christian School. I was an honor student and a member of the basketball team.

On the day of my encounter with Tommy Shelton, here is what took place.

I was in the gym playing basketball one afternoon by myself. I had extra free time as I was an "E" privilege student.

Ricky Shelton came to the gym and told me that his dad wanted to see me in his office. So I left the gym and went to the Pastor's office. Tommy invited me in and closed the door. He sat behind his desk, I sat on the couch.

He began to tell me that he was really embarrassed to talk about this, but he needed my help. He said that he had a problem with his t*******s. It was a medical condition that was causing them to bleed. I asked him if he had been to the doctor. He replied that he was too embarrassed to be seen by the nurses and that he would not go.

He said that he had prayed about it, and God showed him how that he could be healed. He told me that God showed him that if he could apply the s***m of another man, that the proteins would heal his t*******s. He then asked me if I would be willing to help him by applying my s***m to his t*******s.

Being in shock, I told him that I had to think about it and left his office. I went home that afternoon and told my mother all that had gone on.

I did not return to school. My mother, my grandfather and I, went back to the school and confronted Tommy. He denied everything and told my Grandfather that no one would believe us and he would win.

We then went to the West Frankfort Police Department and filed a formal complaint. To my knowledge, no charges were brought against Tommy. Our family suspected that Tommy was being protected by State Police officers who were members of his congregation.

My mother and I moved to Houston, TX shortly after that.

A few years later, we were told that Tommy had been caught with other boys. Some who were personal friends of mine while I was at Ezra.

One of the boys later apologized to me for not speaking up when I did.

My mother received an official written apology from the Church of God. I had not had any communication with Tommy Shelton since that event took place.

If I can be of any further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Because of Him,

Brad Dunning
www.facs4u.com

[Bob Pickle]

Okay, since anyman was having such a hard time citing the appropriate Minnesota statute, for some unknown reason, I have looked it up:

Minn. Stat. Ann. § 626.556, Subd. 3(a) (LexisNexis through 2007 Reg. Sess.)

A person who knows or has reason to believe a child is being neglected or physically or sexually abused...shall immediately report the information to the local welfare agency, agency responsible for assessing or investigating the report, police department, or the county sheriff if the person is...employed as a member of the clergy and received the information while engaged in ministerial duties, provided that a member of clergy is not required to report information that is otherwise privileged under § 595.02(1)(c) [pertaining to clergy-penitent privilege].

anyman, I request an apology for your false and diversionary statements that I was derelict in my duty. The question is, and the test of your Christianity is, whether you will be quicker to apologize now than you were last time I asked for such. Last time you never did.

[Child_of_God]

After reading it I do not understand how you can honestly say you were not derelict in your duty.

Okay, since anyman was having such a hard time citing the appropriate Minnesota statute, for some unknown reason, I have looked it up:

Minn. Stat. Ann. § 626.556, Subd. 3(a) (LexisNexis through 2007 Reg. Sess.)

A person who knows or has reason to believe a child is being neglected or physically or sexually abused...shall immediately report the information to the local welfare agency, agency responsible for assessing or investigating the report, police department, or the county sheriff if the person is...employed as a member of the clergy and received the information while engaged in ministerial duties, provided that a member of clergy is not required to report information that is otherwise privileged under § 595.02(1)(c) [pertaining to clergy-penitent privilege].

anyman, I request an apology for your false and diversionary statements that I was derelict in my duty. The question is, and the test of your Christianity is, whether you will be quicker to apologize now than you were last time I asked for such. Last time you never did.

[ex3abnemployee]

After reading it I do not understand how you can honestly say you were not derelict in your duty.

Distract and divert. This garbage is really getting old.

The issue here is that Tommy Shelton abused several young males, not whether Bob reported something to the authorities that happened years before. How petty can you be?

-- editied to correct misspelling --

[Bob Pickle]

After reading it I do not understand how you can honestly say you were not derelict in your duty.

Distract and divert. This garbage is really getting old.

The issue here is that Tommy Shelton abused several young males, not whether Bob reported something to the authorities that happened years before. How petty can you be?

Looks like Duane can read just fine.

The statute says that if I know or believe a child is being abused, I must report it. I have never known or believed a child is being abused by Tommy Shelton, since all the alleged victims I have talked with are adults now, and the alleged abuse took place some time ago.

Perhaps Child_of_God and anyman are using some other definition for "IS"?

[Petunia]

For those who position themselves as advocates for those who claim sexual abuse, as you and Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy appear to have done, the mandated reporting time is for abuse that has happened within the previous 10 years.

You have posted that TS is an alleged child molester.  Did all of the alleged incidences occur further back than 10 years before the date you learned of them?  If not, you aren't yet off the hook if you did not report them to the appropriate agencies. 

After reading it I do not understand how you can honestly say you were not derelict in your duty.

Distract and divert. This garbage is really getting old.

The issue here is that Tommy Shelton abused several young males, not whether Bob reported something to the authorities that happened years before. How petty can you be?

Looks like Duane can read just fine.

The statute says that if I know or believe a child is being abused, I must report it. I have never known or believed a child is being abused by Tommy Shelton, since all the alleged victims I have talked with are adults now, and the alleged abuse took place some time ago.

Perhaps Child_of_God and anyman are using some other definition for "IS"?

[Petunia]

After reading it I do not understand how you can honestly say you were not derelict in your duty.

Distract and divert. This garbage is really getting old.

The issue here is that Tommy Shelton abused several young males, not whether Bob reported something to the authorities that happened years before. How petty can you be?

Looks like Duane can read just fine.

The statute says that if I know or believe a child is being abused, I must report it. I have never known or believed a child is being abused by Tommy Shelton, since all the alleged victims I have talked with are adults now, and the alleged abuse took place some time ago.

Perhaps Child_of_God and anyman are using some other definition for "IS"?

So you don't believe TS continued on with the alleged abusive behavior after the incidences occurred to the alleged victims you have interviewed?  And yet you criticize the leadership of 3abn for allowing him to work there.  Why?

[Bob Pickle]

For those who position themselves as advocates for those who claim sexual abuse, as you and Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy appear to have done, the mandated reporting time is for abuse that has happened within the previous 10 years.

Come on Petunia, make some sense, please. In what way do I fit the qualifications of a mandatory reporter as given on that publication?

Further, why have you yet to show any outrage over Danny Shelton's cover up of these allegations? What's wrong? Can't you at least say you agree that it was wrong for him to cover these things up?

[Bob Pickle]

So you don't believe TS continued on with the alleged abusive behavior after the incidences occurred to the alleged victims you have interviewed?

I never said that, did I? Please stick to what I said.

And yet you criticize the leadership of 3abn for allowing him to work there.

Where have I done that? Quotes please.

My consistent concern has been that Danny Shelton and Walt Thompson did not handle these allegations appropriately, and when they were given the opportunity to explain otherwise they stubbornly refused to do so. That was inappropriate.

Moreover, when they gave a special tribute to Tommy in the face of new allegations, that was over the top and just plain wrong.

[Bob Pickle]

Let's remember a few things about that tribute.

Linda was accused by Danny Shelton of talking too long on the telephone, and she was consequently terminated. She was never given a special tribute before she departed.

In stark and despicable contrast, Tommy Shelton was accused of molesting boys, and he was given a 20+ minute tribute on global TV.

If that incident doesn't demonstrate the utter moral bankruptcy of some of the main folks at 3ABN, what does?