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[GRAT]

For some, OMG may represent "god", but not for me. There are many things that OMG might mean.  For me, OMG = Oh My Goodness, Oh My Gosh or Oh My Gnats.

We should avoid phrases that are substitutes for taking God's name in vain.

This sort of brings us back around to the story Bonnie told about what happened with her sons  wife and the preacher and how they were allowed to come to a school function but when she mentioned drinking and smoking they all fell to pieces.



This is what we call gagging at a gnat and swallowing a camel.  For you Mr. Pickle to take Petunia to task for whatever she meant for OMG is about the biggest joke so far. Just like sister, you have called people thieves, liars, adulterers, child molestors etc etc....and that's ok. You think you are doing God's will.  But someone posts the initials for Oh my Goodness and you are riding high on your righteous high horse and tell her she should avoid such.

This should go down in a book as the classic example of gagging at the gnat and swallowing the camel. Hopefully with your picture beside the definition.

Mmmhh  You and sister are quite a bit alike.

What a load of BS which stands for Bull Stuff or Bull Smelly or Bull Stinky or Bull Whatever - Get the point?  You can't change what initials stand for, people will read what is accepted that they stand for.   

[GRAT]

Bonnie,

I totally agree with you and you were not over the top.  No one seems to want to admit that this kind of stuff happens in the church.  Just ignore the big stuff that might embarrass the church and focus on the stuff we can control by rules.   We don't smoke and we don't drink and we don't go with folks that do.  But we will bury our heads in the sand with adultery and child rape and other awful things going on so we don't hurt how our church looks.  Might get in the paper.  We know what is sticking up when the head is in the sand.

(Sorry for what your family has had to go through.  It must have been awful!)

[anyman]

What a load of BS which stands for Bull Stuff or Bull Smelly or Bull Stinky or Bull Whatever - Get the point?  You can't change what initials stand for, people will read what is accepted that they stand for.   

And this is what opens the back door wide open and ushers so many new converts right out the back door. Have you taken a look at the "retention" statistics within the N. American Seventh-day Adventist Church? We love to get them in, then we fail to love them . . . and this is a prime example of what that looks like . . . Can you image Jesus responding as you have - STOP! take a minute, don't respond, don't accuse me of being pious answer the question in your head - would Jesus say what you just did? Simple question.

[bonnie]

Bonnie,

I totally agree with you and you were not over the top.  No one seems to want to admit that this kind of stuff happens in the church.  Just ignore the big stuff that might embarrass the church and focus on the stuff we can control by rules.   We don't smoke and we don't drink and we don't go with folks that do.  But we will bury our heads in the sand with adultery and child rape and other awful things going on so we don't hurt how our church looks.  Might get in the paper.  We know what is sticking up when the head is in the sand.

(Sorry for what your family has had to go through.  It must have been awful!)

I think the worst is in knowing nothing ever really changes. No one learns.
I don't care whether it is the Shelton family or ones less known. This they will ignore, hide,deny and blame the victim.
You know, many of the pro-3ABN machine blame others for leading the other poor dupes down the wrong path on this mess. I don't know and really don't care who is the most factual in this. The fact remains that DS, like so many that are employed by the denomination are willing to put other vulnerable children or young adults in harm's way.
I don't think it can be denied that TS definitely has a problem in the area of sexual morality. He lost his credentials, he wrote what was a pretty damning letter of TS.
IMO Duane is pretty credible, you can bet where there is one victim many others are out there. Yet this has so little importance when it is brought up excuses are made or the topic gets shifted rather than confront the topic head on.

This ,as it does in the heirachy,is all I need to know about this man. I dn't care what else he has done, whether it is good or bad. From there I know he is not one bit different than the ones that turned their backs on the behaviour of the pastor that destroyed my sons marriage and tore apart the home of my grandchildren.

And for anyman,Sam,Ian,Petunia. The blame for that impression and opinion I have of DS is not anyone's fault except DS. The IRS,and all that was involved, is nothing compared to this type of callousness.

[Bob Pickle]

Wouldn't a more accurate question or statement on your part be a "conservative according to my definition of such"?

Not at all. True, Bible-believing, Bible-following, conservative, Seventh-day Adventist Christians do not prevaricate, do not refuse to apologize, do not cover up child molestation allegations, and do not hire lawyers to bully people.

Think I'm wrong? Then see how many people you can find who will tell you that true, Bible-believing, Bible-following, conservative, Seventh-day Adventist Christians prevaricate, refuse to apologize, cover up child molestation allegations, and hire lawyers to bully people. Come back and tell us how many you found.

I haven't noticed any of your other so-called victims coming forward and making their claims public.

Where you been? Roger Clem went public in 2003. Brad Dunning has never hidden it, as far as I know, and he released a public statement a year and a half ago.

Where you been?

And anyman, why be so disrespectful as to call them so-called victims? Why not call them alleged victims? What's your problem?

He has also put one of your main sources of information on the record as having very sketchy reasons for being involved - he has made it clear that the veracity of Mr. Glenn Drydan is suspect at best, yet you continue to hang your hat on Mr. Glenn Dryden's coat rack.

Kind of twisted. Duane has never suggested that Dryden's claim of Tommy Molesting six boys is inaccurate. And I haven't hung my hat on Dryden's coat rack. I have personally spoken with SEVEN alleged victims, and Dryden wasn't one of them.

Why don't you just not comment till you can keep your facts straight. It really isn't helpful when you paint a picture that isn't true.

(Its is intriguing that rather than indicating that he would provide contact information, Mr. Glenn Dryden instead makes sure to insert himself into the process as the middle man who will contact the families and make the arrangements for a conversation between Dr. Thompson and said "victims")

Unless you've been victimized, I think you are out of line with such a comment.

Since it is obvious that you can no longer harp on the false allegations you laid out in regards to the finances of 3ABN and Danny Shelton you have returned to this one.

Which allegation are you suggesting was false? Sam was having problems coming up with one even after several days. No, it really is true that Danny said in April 2005 that he had falsified a figure on his 2003 tax return, and that tax return looks like he was telling the truth on that one.

Let's be clear here . . . "you" are the one who has claimed there was a cover-up, "you" have manufactured the "evidence" by piecing little bits from here and little bits from there together to construct what you claim indicts and then presented it to the public.

Actually, Walt Thompson told me that Danny had told him things about the child molestation allegations that couldn't possibly be true. If you have a problem with that, talk to Walt Thompson, not me.

No, Mr. Robert Pickle, as much as you might want to claim Psalm 64, it doesn't apply to you - the evidence of the past almost two years (the length of time you admit to being involved) does not play out that way. Psalm 64 is the salve for the soul of those you have attacked and treated in some of the most unchristian ways.

Sure it applies to me, not to folks who cover up child molestation allegations or who hire attorneys to bully people.

Remember that Rome justifies the slaughter of the Albigenses on the basis that the culture of the times was threatened. A representative of Rome was actually murdered, and the crusades were launched in retaliation for that crime, though who did the deed was a question. Yet how can one justify the carnage that followed on the basis of one person being murdered?

The Albigenses could rightly invoke Ps. 64, I think we can agree. But Rome would likely claim, as you are doing, that they could invoke Ps. 64, not the Albigenses.

"YOU" claim that Dr. Thompson and the board of 3ABN should have contacted the "victims" but yet you rationalize away your responsibility as a member of the clergy to notify the appropriate authorities when you became aware of the accusations.

I haven't rationalized a thing, and you haven't cited one single statute to base your legal opinion on.

anyman, how come we don't hear one bit of outrage coming from you regarding Danny Shelton's cover up of child molestation allegations?

[Bob Pickle]

For you Mr. Pickle to take Petunia to task for whatever she meant for OMG is about the biggest joke so far.

I didn't take her to task.

Just like sister, you have called people thieves, liars, adulterers, child molestors etc etc....and that's ok.

Got any quotes to back up your claim that I have called people these things? Please provide at least one quote for each term.

[Bob Pickle]

And this is what opens the back door wide open and ushers so many new converts right out the back door.

Coming across as if we refuse to deal with vile sin, as in not talking to any of the alleged victims of Tommy Shelton, also can send new converts out the back door.

[anyman]

I haven't rationalized a thing, and you haven't cited one single statute to base your legal opinion on.

Questions still asked and you have yet to answer. Can you? Can't you? Will you? Won't you? You are doing a good job of avoiding them. Why did you fail to meet your obligations as a member of the clergy? Why did you instead focus all your attention on attacking the Gospel and the ministry spreading it? Why did you focus your energy on attacking fellow Christians in a public manner? Why didn't you go to the authorities and advocate for your list of so-called "victims"?

BTW, I never proffered a legal opinion on anything. I stand by my claim that you rationalized your behavior doing what ever you needed to to assuage your conscience when it comes to your "With any means necessary" approach to the whole situation.

Finally, it is clear to all that Psalms 64 does not, has not, will not apply to you. Its words describe your behavior, your attitude, your fruits - it indicts your behavior and gives those you attack hope in the blessed love of the Saviour.

[anyman]

Got any quotes to back up your claim that I have called people these things? Please provide at least one quote for each term.

Do you realize how silly you come across with this question? You can't possibly be serious, can you? The response from Sam to this question would take hours to write and he could cite, AT, BSDA, Maritime, Yahoo Prophecy and still not be cover them all.

[anyman]

Jesus dealt with sin on a daily basis . . . and NEVER the way you have, never with the callous disregard for those He worked with. He never employed a "scorched earth, any means necessary" approach the way you have. He never failed to honor and respect those he dealt with. Even when dealing with the Pharisees He honored the person they were while pointing out the sin they needed to put away. You don't have the patience or understanding He exhibited, the compassion or sympathy He engendered. He cared about people - you have failed to show even once that you care. Even those you claim to defend you failed when you didn't meet your pastoral responsibility of alerting the appropriate authorities when you felt there were legitimate accusations.

Coming across as if we refuse to deal with vile sin, as in not talking to any of the alleged victims of Tommy Shelton, also can send new converts out the back door.

[Bob Pickle]

Questions still asked and you have yet to answer. Can you? Can't you? Will you? Won't you?

Why should I do your legal research for you? Cite the statute and then let's talk.

Why did you instead focus all your attention on attacking the Gospel and the ministry spreading it?

Stop your blasphemy. Speaking out against the cover up of child molestation allegations is not attacking the gospel.

Finally, it is clear to all that Psalms 64 does not, has not, will not apply to you. Its words describe your behavior, your attitude, your fruits - it indicts your behavior and gives those you attack hope in the blessed love of the Saviour.

Not at all. Ps. 64 is not for those who cover up child molestation allegations.

[Bob Pickle]

Got any quotes to back up your claim that I have called people these things? Please provide at least one quote for each term.

Do you realize how silly you come across with this question? You can't possibly be serious, can you? The response from Sam to this question would take hours to write and he could cite, AT, BSDA, Maritime, Yahoo Prophecy and still not be cover them all.

No, it isn't silly at all. And it doesn't take an hours to cite at least one quote for each term he listed.

That's the problem with you folks. You make claims and then don't want to back up your claims. When I say that Danny said he reported a donation of property as cash, I can tell you the day he said that, and which tax return he said he did it on. I can give you the actual quote.

[Bob Pickle]

Jesus dealt with sin on a daily basis . . . and NEVER the way you have, never with the callous disregard for those He worked with. He never employed a "scorched earth, any means necessary" approach the way you have. He never failed to honor and respect those he dealt with. Even when dealing with the Pharisees He honored the person they were while pointing out the sin they needed to put away.

Have you forgotten the correspondence which demonstrates the patent falsity of your statements?

[anyman]

Why were you derelict in your duty? Why did you fail to fulfill your responsibility as a member of the clergy. Why do you continue to refuse to address the questions put to you?

Questions sill asked and not answered. There is no legal research involved - only your resistance to addressing the questions put to you. Why are you dodging them? Why are you not forth coming in responding to them? There are no statues necessary - we have your words that lead to these quesiotns.

- Your claim to have been a pastor around the time you "discovered" the accusations
- Your constant haranguing of Dr. Thompson and the board for not meeting what you have defined as their obligation

You have set the precedent with your own words so . . . why didn't you follow through on your responsibility as a member of the clergy to alert the appropriate authorities when you were made aware of accusations that you felt needed to be addressed?

What we do see is that at that point you went into overdrive in an attempt to dismantle a ministry of the Gospel and decided to attack anyone and everyone who disagreed with you along the way. You constantly have employed a "by any means necessary" approach and have tried to defile and vilify even the most cursory individuals. You haven't advocated for those -you- claim are victims . . . instead you have used them to continue your attacks on the Gospel and those who work to bring it to a wanting world.

Why did you fail in your duty as a member of the clergy?

Questions still asked and you have yet to answer. Can you? Can't you? Will you? Won't you?

Why should I do your legal research for you? Cite the statute and then let's talk.

Why did you instead focus all your attention on attacking the Gospel and the ministry spreading it?

Stop your blasphemy. Speaking out against the cover up of child molestation allegations is not attacking the gospel.

Finally, it is clear to all that Psalms 64 does not, has not, will not apply to you. Its words describe your behavior, your attitude, your fruits - it indicts your behavior and gives those you attack hope in the blessed love of the Saviour.

Not at all. Ps. 64 is not for those who cover up child molestation allegations.

[Bob Pickle]

Why were you derelict in your duty?

There is no legal research involved ....

You can't have it both ways. If no research is needed, then quit asking the question. If you think you need to ask the question, then by all means cite the statute that spells out what my duty was.

Don't be lazy.