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[Petunia]

The smelly little skunk on Bambie was named Petunia.  So is your user name appropriate?  (I'm quite sick of the I'm so holy attitude of the DS defenders and then they have to give a nasty jab at whoever they don't agree with.)

GRAT, in order to clear up a minor inaccuracy, I am further replying to your post.

You can call me Flower.  From that time forward, the little animal was known by what Bambi dubbed her.  The smelly little skunk in Bambi was not named Petunia, but a petunia is a flower...so, you were in the ballpark with your jab.

Sometimes in our haste to make another look worse than ourselves, to give a nasty jab, we err and end up showing our own shortcomings.

Pet (otherwise known to some as the smelly little skunk wallowing amongst the flower patch) Rathbone

[Petunia]

anyman, I despise the use of smilies in serious discussions and tend to feel a rising nausea in the way I have seen them used here on this forum...and yet I am so nearly compelled to insert one here to give you props for the many substantial points you have just made.

I may not agree with every word, but certainly do with most.  Will they fall on deaf ears or blind eyes?  I hope not...and, (in a move that might be interpreted as an "I'm so holy attitude") I pray not.

So then as the self-appointed guardian of "conservatism," Mr. Robert Pickle, you are then admitting that because you claimed to be a member of the clergy when you became aware of said accusations and never contacted the authorities when you became aware of said accusations that you failed in your legal duty as a said member of the clergy.

So then based on your own description of responsibility is it not incumbent on you to apologize to all of these so-called "victims" (and the only one that can reasonably be identified as such because of their own claims is Duane) that you have been in contact with. To date you have not reported anything to the appropriate authorities and you seem to be legal bound to do such. Is your inaction on their part not unchristian? Isn't it an indication of dereliction of duty as a self-proclaimed member of the clergy?

You are not the guardian of conservatism, you are not the arbiter of what qualifies as conservatism. Instead you have taken a Pharisaical approach of judgmentalism and a inventor of laws and requirements that "allow" someone to be worthy of your opinion of "conservatism."

As Petunia pointed out, you manipulate peoples words by suggesting meaning that is not there, by editing and rearranging, by out right misleading interpretation, by suggesting you know intent even without asking individuals for clarification . . . and then you present it as truth - this is an abomination your subtle mixing of truth and lie.

When I look at the totality of your efforts and those you have associated with I am reminded of the following Psalm, as it seems to accurately describe the lament of those you have attacked publicly and privately, David is the voice for all of those you have attempted to vilify and destroy in public and private:

Psalms 64

1 Hear me oh God as I voice my complaint; protect my life from the threat of the enemy.
2 Hide me from the conspiracy of the wicked, from the noisy crowd of evildoers.
3 They sharpen their tongues like swords and aim their words like deadly arrows.
4 They shoot from ambush at the innocent man; they shoot at him suddenly. without fear.
5 They encourage each other in evil plans, they talk about hiding their snares; they say, "who will see them?"
6 They plot injustice and say, "We have devised a perfect plan!" Surely the mind and heart of man are cunning.
7 But God will shoot them with arrows; suddenly they will be struck down.
8 He will turn their own tongues against them and bring them to ruin; all who see them will shake their heads in scorn.
9 All mankind will fear; they will proclaim the works of God and ponder what he has done.
10 Let the righteous rejoice in the Lord and take refuge in him; let all the upright in heart praise him!

Verse 10 defines what action has been seen by those you attack - they have put their faith in God, yes even in filing a suit against you. Your fruits are not the fruits of the brethren, the suit is not for personal gain by 3ABN or anyone on that side - but to silence the voice of evil attempting to destroy the work of God. In the filing do you find anywhere that they will demand you make up the difference in any lost donations - NO. In the filing to you find anywhere that they will seek to debilitate you or Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy in any way financial - NO! The suit is designed to end your evil attack on 3ABN and to allow for all the energies necessary to counter the lies to be redirected back to the work of God. As opposed to your compatriots claim that there would be wonderful financial results for your side when the case was done.

Those you have attacked have sought the Peace of the Lord and abide there knowing your lies and attacks will be exposed in God's time. To date we have the end of the IRS investigation and their admittance that 3ABN was not charged a penny (Fran, have you heard back from your inside contact at the IRS? You have been rather silent on your claim that you would find out what the "real" truth was). Should the case (aren't you there today?) proceed your remaining allegations will be exposed as just the weak worn tapestry produced by a loosely held together rumor mill.

To reiterate, have you not been in dereliction of your pastoral duty by not taking the accusations you heard to the proper authorities? Do you not owe any "victims" an apology for failing to do so?

Again, Ian, I want to invite you to return to the ranks of conservatism, and cease defending those who cover up child molestation allegations, cease defending those who lack the Christian courtesy to contact alleged victims when invited to do so, cease defending those who hire attorneys to threaten those who are concerned about child molestation allegations, and cease defending those who refuse to apologize for such ungodliness.

The Lord is coming soon!

btw, I am not a really new convert... but not an old one, either.  I appreciate your kind thoughts in my defense as well as those of others who were not quick to demean and dismiss me for my use of OMG.  I hope you will continue to feel kindly towards me when my opinions do not agree with your own.  Somehow, I believe you will. I do have a great many rough edges but believe that God is smoothing them out as I walk with Him.  I firmly believe in the words of John 3:16.  He loves all Earthlings.  Because of Him, my soul sings.

Pet

[GRAT]

Petunia, you know what the point of my post was - you made a "nasty jab" at Bob Pickles name.   By the way, my children are all adults so it has been a long time since I watched Bambie.  Maybe it's the dementia setting in. 

[Bob Pickle]

I don't know if you have ever been a conservative, or whether you have ever been an Adventist, anyman, but I invite you to take your stand upon Bible truth and cease defending those who have tried to cover up child molestation allegations, those who hire lawyers to bully those concerned about child molestation, and those who prevaricate regarding this subject, as I assume you just did when you said that Duane is the only identifiable alleged victim of the bunch.

Furthermore, since I am not the one who has covered up these hideous allegations, since I am not the one who has hired attorneys to bully people over this matter, since I am not the one who refused to contact the alleged victims or who blamed it all on the jealousy of a man who lived 800 miles away until 8 years after Tommy's license was suspended, it is readily apparent that Ps. 64 is something I can invoke rather than 3ABN or Danny Shelton.

[Artiste]

I don't know if you have ever been a conservative, or whether you have ever been an Adventist, anyman, but I invite you to take your stand upon Bible truth and cease defending those who have tried to cover up child molestation allegations, those who hire lawyers to bully those concerned about child molestation, and those who prevaricate regarding this subject, as I assume you just did when you said that Duane is the only identifiable alleged victim of the bunch.

Furthermore, since I am not the one who has covered up these hideous allegations, since I am not the one who has hired attorneys to bully people over this matter, since I am not the one who refused to contact the alleged victims or who blamed it all on the jealousy of a man who lived 800 miles away until 8 years after Tommy's license was suspended, it is readily apparent that Ps. 64 is something I can invoke rather than 3ABN or Danny Shelton.

Good point, Bob.

[GRAT]

I am just so totally amazed that thinking people, especially those who are parents and most especially mothers could think that someone who has been accused of child molestation and admitted that he has a problem with young boys (even if some were over 18) could think that it is OK for the accused to be around children.  We should be OVER protective of our precious young people.  If allegations have been made they should never be around children until it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the allegations are false.  I am still upset years later at our SDA school for allowing my boy children to go put on music programs at a church nears where we live that had a level 3 sex offender of young boys in their congregation and never let the parents know.  I would have insisted that no boy go to the restroom alone at the very least.  (there was a book written about this man called the sins of the father I believe.  It was a Pacific Press book.  Very hard to read.   Those parents who brought their children to 3ABN to perform should have known there were allegations against TS and had the chance to make a decisions if they wanted to put their children in that place.  (He never should have been there in the first place!)

[bonnie]

I am just so totally amazed that thinking people, especially those who are parents and most especially mothers could think that someone who has been accused of child molestation and admitted that he has a problem with young boys (even if some were over 18) could think that it is OK for the accused to be around children.  We should be OVER protective of our precious young people.  If allegations have been made they should never be around children until it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the allegations are false.  I am still upset years later at our SDA school for allowing my boy children to go put on music programs at a church nears where we live that had a level 3 sex offender of young boys in their congregation and never let the parents know.  I would have insisted that no boy go to the restroom alone at the very least.  (there was a book written about this man called the sins of the father I believe.  It was a Pacific Press book.  Very hard to read.   Those parents who brought their children to 3ABN to perform should have known there were allegations against TS and had the chance to make a decisions if they wanted to put their children in that place.  (He never should have been there in the first place!)

But this is nothing new. It is not taken all that seriously.

If this was talking about a drunk around your children at 3ABBN, or one that smoked,  it would have been taken care of quite quickly. That would really generate the concern and get some excitement going



edit to add sentence

[anyman]

I don't know if you have ever been a conservative, or whether you have ever been an Adventist, anyman, . . .

Wouldn't a more accurate question or statement on your part be a "conservative according to my definition of such"? If you had stated it that way it would be far more honest - the same with your question about my membership (or not) in the Adventist church.

Your recent posting in this regard reminds me of a joke I once heard:

"A certain man arrived at the gates of heaven and was met by Peter who welcomed him home and offered to take him on a tour of the beautiful city. The man of course was desirous and they set out. Every few blocks they came upon a church, distinctive worship characteristics were evident from each, joyous music, powerful preaching, and many others. Each time the new arrival asked what faith occupied the church and Peter gladly filled him in. As they approached a bend in the road Peter stopped, turned, and told the man that in the next block he would need to be completely silent - not a word and he needed to walk as softly as possible.

They proceeded and passed a church along the next block. The man abiding by Peter's request was silent, even through the block following that church. However, the curiosity was too create and he finally blurted out - 'Why did we have to be so quiet as we passed that church?' Peter, with a rather sad look told him, "That was the Adventist church and they think they are the only ones up here.'"

Now, we know from the SoP that that just isn't going to be the case - yet your attitude carries all the earmarks of that kind of triumphalist attitude. Is there no place in your heaven for people who do not adhere to your self declared "right" brand of conservatism?

. . . but I invite you to take your stand upon Bible truth and cease defending those who have tried to cover up child molestation allegations, those who hire lawyers to bully those concerned about child molestation, and those who prevaricate regarding this subject, as I assume you just did when you said that Duane is the only identifiable alleged victim of the bunch.

I stand by my statement in regards to your "list of victims":

(and the only one that can reasonably be identified as such because of their own claims is Duane)

I haven't noticed any of your other so-called victims coming forward and making their claims public. Duane has come forward and made added his voice. While it is entirely possibly that Duane is truly a victim, we also have numerous examples on the American legal landscape where accusations were later proven false (and Duane I am making NO JUDGMENT on your situation - merely presenting a salient point as part of the discussion) He has also put one of your main sources of information on the record as having very sketchy reasons for being involved - he has made it clear that the veracity of Mr. Glenn Drydan is suspect at best, yet you continue to hang your hat on Mr. Glenn Dryden's coat rack. (Its is intriguing that rather than indicating that he would provide contact information, Mr. Glenn Dryden instead makes sure to insert himself into the process as the middle man who will contact the families and make the arrangements for a conversation between Dr. Thompson and said "victims")

This section of your post is nothing more than an opportunity to restate your allegation du jour. Since it is obvious that you can no longer harp on the false allegations you laid out in regards to the finances of 3ABN and Danny Shelton you have returned to this one. Let's be clear here . . . "you" are the one who has claimed there was a cover-up, "you" have manufactured the "evidence" by piecing little bits from here and little bits from there together to construct what you claim indicts and then presented it to the public.

Furthermore, since I am not the one who has covered up these hideous allegations, since I am not the one who has hired attorneys to bully people over this matter, since I am not the one who refused to contact the alleged victims or who blamed it all on the jealousy of a man who lived 800 miles away until 8 years after Tommy's license was suspended, it is readily apparent that Ps. 64 is something I can invoke rather than 3ABN or Danny Shelton.

No, Mr. Robert Pickle, as much as you might want to claim Psalm 64, it doesn't apply to you - the evidence of the past almost two years (the length of time you admit to being involved) does not play out that way. Psalm 64 is the salve for the soul of those you have attacked and treated in some of the most unchristian ways. Your penchant for the "end justifying the means" is light years from the Christian heart of how to relate to our other fellow travelers on this planet.

Your comments indicate that you are seeking justification for not following your own demands. "YOU" claim that Dr. Thompson and the board of 3ABN should have contacted the "victims" but yet you rationalize away your responsibility as a member of the clergy to notify the appropriate authorities when you became aware of the accusations. At that very point you were responsible and you didn't follow through on it - there are no two ways about it. Why didn't you? Why did you instead decide to turn your vengeance against 3ABN? Why at the point you became aware that there were accusations of that nature, did you not go to the authorities in defense of said "victims"? Why did you instead turn your heart to vilify a fellow Christian publicly? Why even now, after all that has passed these two years do you still remain silent unless you can use it to bring down 3ABN and Danny Shelton? Why are you not in the DA's office even now advocating for your list of "victims" instead of attending today's hearing in Mass. by phone?

If the accusations had substance, and you believed they were substantial, why didn't you go directly to advocate for these individuals rather than turning all your attentions and energies toward brining down a ministry of the Gospel?

Again, these questions are asked - but not answered.

[bonnie]

Grat,

If you  my prevous post was a little over the top and exaggerated,let me share something with you.
During the ordeal of my son,it was very easy to see what was considered important.

The pastor that broke up my sons marriage was planning on attending dinner put on by the school children for mother's.fathers and grandparents. In talking with those that could stop this, right up to the conference president  took a very perculiar stand.

I was told it was not illegal so they did not feel they could really iintervene. Never mind the fact he was living with my DIL while both were still married to other spouses.
I suggested at that time that my husband wished to bring a 6 pack of beer and I thought some after dinner cigars would be nice.

I was immediately told "You cannot do that, as SDA's we have standards to uphold" So my husband and I were seated at the same table as my DIL and her shack up ex- pastor  . It was so nice to see him sitting there with his arm around my granchildren's mother,  Can you imagine how the chilldren felt?Thankfully my son was out of twon that weekend and it was just my husband and myself
Am I the only one that sees anything wrong with "our standards"??

[Child_of_God]

Anyman, you are correct when you said, we also have numerous examples on the American legal landscape where accusations were later proven false.

 I had an 8 year old girl in my Brownie scout troop once who was not only an alleged victim but the alleged perpetrator, her father, was also a victim as well as her mother and her siblings. The whole thing made me sick, and it was all because a third person, her teacher, overheard something, told the principal who in turn called the child protective services. The police and child protective representative took the girl from school and then went to the home and arrested the father and took the other siblings into their custody. No one had talked to the girl or her parents until later. It was a long drawn out mess that went on for several months. To make it a short story, the girl was telling her friend that she took showers with her daddy and that is what the teacher overheard. What could have been ascertained right from the start was that she had taken showers with her daddy because her parents had told her so. It was when she was a baby. Her father lost his job and found it difficult to later get another one. Their reputations were shot. Financially they were at rock bottom, even to loosing their home. The children had spent months in foster care and neither parent was allowed to be with the children. The whole family was devastated.

While it is good to look out for children it is not wise to assume and presume and take on third party heroics. In the above case they did major harm to 5 people.

[bonnie]

Anyman, you are correct when you said, we also have numerous examples on the American legal landscape where accusations were later proven false.

 I had an 8 year old girl in my Brownie scout troop once who was not only an alleged victim but the alleged perpetrator, her father, was also a victim as well as her mother and her siblings. The whole thing made me sick, and it was all because a third person, her teacher, overheard something, told the principal who in turn called the child protective services. The police and child protective representative took the girl from school and then went to the home and arrested the father and took the other siblings into their custody. No one had talked to the girl or her parents until later. It was a long drawn out mess that went on for several months. To make it a short story, the girl was telling her friend that she took showers with her daddy and that is what the teacher overheard. What could have been ascertained right from the start was that she had taken showers with her daddy because her parents had told her so. It was when she was a baby. Her father lost his job and found it difficult to later get another one. Their reputations were shot. Financially they were at rock bottom, even to loosing their home. The children had spent months in foster care and neither parent was allowed to be with the children. The whole family was devastated.

While it is good to look out for children it is not wise to assume and presume and take on third party heroics. In the above case they did major harm to 5 people.

The low number of the innocent that is accused is always thrown in to determine better not do anything at all.

Most are telling the truth and if there were more 3rd party heriocs there would not be so much harm to so many.
Risk Management has stated that 8 out of 10 are telling the truth, then times that by all those that are to afraid or ashamed to come forward.

People are unfortunately falsely accused over many crimes, maybe we best just let  crimes be. That way we know that none will be falsely accused.
It appears most believe Duane. HOw naive are you to believe that Duane was the only one?

[Sam]

For some, OMG may represent "god", but not for me. There are many things that OMG might mean.  For me, OMG = Oh My Goodness, Oh My Gosh or Oh My Gnats.

We should avoid phrases that are substitutes for taking God's name in vain.

This sort of brings us back around to the story Bonnie told about what happened with her sons  wife and the preacher and how they were allowed to come to a school function but when she mentioned drinking and smoking they all fell to pieces.

This is what we call gagging at a gnat and swallowing a camel.  For you Mr. Pickle to take Petunia to task for whatever she meant for OMG is about the biggest joke so far. Just like sister, you have called people thieves, liars, adulterers, child molestors etc etc....and that's ok. You think you are doing God's will.  But someone posts the initials for Oh my Goodness and you are riding high on your righteous high horse and tell her she should avoid such.

This should go down in a book as the classic example of gagging at the gnat and swallowing the camel. Hopefully with your picture beside the definition.

Mmmhh  You and sister are quite a bit alike.

[Johann]

I don't know if you have ever been a conservative, or whether you have ever been an Adventist, anyman, . . .

Wouldn't a more accurate question or statement on your part be a "conservative according to my definition of such"? If you had stated it that way it would be far more honest - the same with your question about my membership (or not) in the Adventist church.

Your recent posting in this regard reminds me of a joke I once heard:

"A certain man arrived at the gates of heaven and was met by Peter who welcomed him home and offered to take him on a tour of the beautiful city. The man of course was desirous and they set out. Every few blocks they came upon a church, distinctive worship characteristics were evident from each, joyous music, powerful preaching, and many others. Each time the new arrival asked what faith occupied the church and Peter gladly filled him in. As they approached a bend in the road Peter stopped, turned, and told the man that in the next block he would need to be completely silent - not a word and he needed to walk as softly as possible.

They proceeded and passed a church along the next block. The man abiding by Peter's request was silent, even through the block following that church. However, the curiosity was too create and he finally blurted out - 'Why did we have to be so quiet as we passed that church?' Peter, with a rather sad look told him, "That was the Adventist church and they think they are the only ones up here.'"

Now, we know from the SoP that that just isn't going to be the case - yet your attitude carries all the earmarks of that kind of triumphalist attitude. Is there no place in your heaven for people who do not adhere to your self declared "right" brand of conservatism?

. . . but I invite you to take your stand upon Bible truth and cease defending those who have tried to cover up child molestation allegations, those who hire lawyers to bully those concerned about child molestation, and those who prevaricate regarding this subject, as I assume you just did when you said that Duane is the only identifiable alleged victim of the bunch.

I stand by my statement in regards to your "list of victims":

(and the only one that can reasonably be identified as such because of their own claims is Duane)

I haven't noticed any of your other so-called victims coming forward and making their claims public. Duane has come forward and made added his voice. While it is entirely possibly that Duane is truly a victim, we also have numerous examples on the American legal landscape where accusations were later proven false (and Duane I am making NO JUDGMENT on your situation - merely presenting a salient point as part of the discussion) He has also put one of your main sources of information on the record as having very sketchy reasons for being involved - he has made it clear that the veracity of Mr. Glenn Drydan is suspect at best, yet you continue to hang your hat on Mr. Glenn Dryden's coat rack. (Its is intriguing that rather than indicating that he would provide contact information, Mr. Glenn Dryden instead makes sure to insert himself into the process as the middle man who will contact the families and make the arrangements for a conversation between Dr. Thompson and said "victims")

This section of your post is nothing more than an opportunity to restate your allegation du jour. Since it is obvious that you can no longer harp on the false allegations you laid out in regards to the finances of 3ABN and Danny Shelton you have returned to this one. Let's be clear here . . . "you" are the one who has claimed there was a cover-up, "you" have manufactured the "evidence" by piecing little bits from here and little bits from there together to construct what you claim indicts and then presented it to the public.

Furthermore, since I am not the one who has covered up these hideous allegations, since I am not the one who has hired attorneys to bully people over this matter, since I am not the one who refused to contact the alleged victims or who blamed it all on the jealousy of a man who lived 800 miles away until 8 years after Tommy's license was suspended, it is readily apparent that Ps. 64 is something I can invoke rather than 3ABN or Danny Shelton.

No, Mr. Robert Pickle, as much as you might want to claim Psalm 64, it doesn't apply to you - the evidence of the past almost two years (the length of time you admit to being involved) does not play out that way. Psalm 64 is the salve for the soul of those you have attacked and treated in some of the most unchristian ways. Your penchant for the "end justifying the means" is light years from the Christian heart of how to relate to our other fellow travelers on this planet.

Your comments indicate that you are seeking justification for not following your own demands. "YOU" claim that Dr. Thompson and the board of 3ABN should have contacted the "victims" but yet you rationalize away your responsibility as a member of the clergy to notify the appropriate authorities when you became aware of the accusations. At that very point you were responsible and you didn't follow through on it - there are no two ways about it. Why didn't you? Why did you instead decide to turn your vengeance against 3ABN? Why at the point you became aware that there were accusations of that nature, did you not go to the authorities in defense of said "victims"? Why did you instead turn your heart to vilify a fellow Christian publicly? Why even now, after all that has passed these two years do you still remain silent unless you can use it to bring down 3ABN and Danny Shelton? Why are you not in the DA's office even now advocating for your list of "victims" instead of attending today's hearing in Mass. by phone?

If the accusations had substance, and you believed they were substantial, why didn't you go directly to advocate for these individuals rather than turning all your attentions and energies toward brining down a ministry of the Gospel?

Again, these questions are asked - but not answered.

I find your points quite interesting, Mr. Anyman. I just wish that you had been around with those arguments back in 2004, and that you had helped Mr. Danny Shelton apply those principles in his dealings with his wife, Linda. Then there never had been all of these problems.

[bonnie]

This sort of brings us back around to the story Bonnie told about what happened with her sons  wife and the preacher and how they were allowed to come to a school function but when she mentioned drinking and smoking they all fell to pieces.

This is what we call gagging at a gnat and swallowing a camel.  For you Mr. Pickle to take Petunia to task for whatever she meant for OMG is about the biggest joke so far. Just like sister, you have called people thieves, liars, adulterers, child molestors etc etc....and that's ok. You think you are doing God's will.  But someone posts the initials for Oh my Goodness and you are riding high on your righteous high horse and tell her she should avoid such.

This should go down in a book as the classic example of gagging at the gnat and swallowing the camel. Hopefully with your picture beside the definition.

One thiing you always seem to overlook in your responses. Contrary to popular opinion of some of you,DS does not walk on water,nor is there this need to almost genuflect at the mention of his name.

What stands out  most from your posts is nothing, but nothing wrong has ever been done by DS.
Say what you will but TS has lost his credentials in another denomination. What was that for again? We have a very credible witness from a victim of TS.

Please explain to me why anyone that has the slightest idea of what that type of behaviour can do to a victim employs him in a trusted capacity???

My sons and now my grandchildren would have had no problem previously trusting and maybe putting themselves in harms way with anyone employed by the church or a ministry. I don't care if it is just as a janitor. You can bet my grandchildren are no longer taught such a fairy tale. Explain DS complete disregard for the safety of others, especially young people.
I have as much problem with a man like DS, one that is almost revered being so callous in his disregard for others as I do his brother TS. DS, in my opinion is doing nothing more than holding the coat of  one that has already preyed on   the vulnerable. And now, many more are willing to wink

[anyman]

I find your points quite interesting, Mr. Anyman. I just wish that you had been around with those arguments back in 2004, and that you had helped Mr. Danny Shelton apply those principles in his dealings with his wife, Linda. Then there never had been all of these problems.

Mr. Johann Thorvaldson (hope I spelled the name correctly),

- Edited to avoid allowing you to hijack this thread. The questions have been put to Mr. Robert Pickle he has refused to answer, people will make decisions on his veracity based on those facts. If you want to start a thread about what I have said and attempt to apply it to something completely different you have that prerogative. -