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[bonnie]

For those who position themselves as advocates for those who claim sexual abuse, as you and Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy appear to have done, the mandated reporting time is for abuse that has happened within the previous 10 years.

You have posted that TS is an alleged child molester.  Did all of the alleged incidences occur further back than 10 years before the date you learned of them?  If not, you aren't yet off the hook if you did not report them to the appropriate agencies. 

It is not a question of who gets off the hook . Back again to the behaviour of my sons when young. "If you think what I did or did not do is so bad,do you know what ,,,,,, did"
What was it again DS did regarding this matter?

If Bob or Gailon knew while it was going on, there is no doubt they were in the wrong for not reporting it. PERIOD.
Their reporting or not reporting is not the sole issue.

Now let's get to DS and TS. What steps did DS take. The investigation that was claimed seems to be somewhat in doubt. Did DS or his legal team make contact with the victims, there has been several names mentioned.?

BTW, as this is a topic you and DS supporters bring up quite frequently and you seem quite knowledgeable about 3ABN and DS. What did you do? Have you spoken to DS about the risk he is running? Have you asked him if he has cautioned others with young people to be careful around his brother,as he lost his minsterial credentials for immoral conduct? All it would take is one coming forward currently and what a mess it would be.


.

Distract and divert. This garbage is really getting old.

This is so accurate and one fellow adventists play well when this topic is brought out.

As knowledgeable as you are,you give every indication of being concerning all that pertains to DS and 3ABN, what is your take on TS and being allowed now a role in a christian ministry.
What excuse can you find for not having a through investigation concerning the victims named previously?

Are all the victims just jealous and out to get God's annointed one?

The issue here is that Tommy Shelton abused several young males, not whether Bob reported something to the authorities that happened years before. How petty can you be?

This is not petty, this is a deliberate attempt to sidetrack. If Bob knew at the time he is quilty as well. Now let's get back to the guilt of DS,TS and 3ABN

[Bob Pickle]

I have three stories from three different people that all indicate that Danny has known about this problem for years. So one obvious question is whether Danny ever reported it to the authorities, and if not, why not.

[Child_of_God]

I believe I can read just as well as anyone. Maybe others read what Bob Pickle said, The statute says that if I know or believe a child is being abused, I must report it. I have never known or believed a child is being abused by Tommy Shelton, since all the alleged victims I have talked with are adults now, and the alleged abuse took place some time ago.  He also said, Have you forgotten? I don\'t take people\'s word for things, regardless of which side they\'re on. Well he did take the word of those alleged victims of child abuse, most of whom have never reported it to the authorities. At any rate there has never been a basis for a trial or conviction. At the time Bob got involved he did not know if there was such a statute and still did not try to report it. Now since it was some time ago they will not come forward leaving Bob in a pickle to soak in his own brine. Still he expected that 3ABN should have investigated and done something he could not do anything about. All the talk of a cover up has no basis as no proof has ever been given for such, just the words of those working against 3ABN.

I honestly do not know if there were any alleged victims or not nor do I know anything personal about TS. But, somehow we have all forgotten that there has been nothing reported in all the years from then to now. We have also forgotten that even if TS had done something years ago how do we know that he has not repented and left it in the past. When the Lord talked with the woman in sin, He told her to go and sin no more. None of us know TS heart and the heart of the alleged victims except Jesus. Isn’t it time to stop being the accusers of the brethren? Let it go and let God. 

[Gregory]

"The statute says that if I know or believe a child is being abused, I must report it."

It would be highly unusual for a State law to say the above.  None of the laws of which I am aquainted make "belief" a condition of the requirement to report. The reason is very simple:  MAking belief a requirement to report  make a lack of belief a defense against a failure to report.  e.g.  I did not believe, therefore I was not required to report.

NOTE:  I am not stating anything in regard to who I might believe had a requirement to report and who did not have such a requirement.  I am simply questioning the statement about the law.

[Child_of_God]

Bonnie, you said, he lost his minsterial credentials for immoral conduct?  Where is the proof for this statement? As far as I know while the allegations were being investigated his license was suspended. When the investigation ended, he retained his license.

[bonnie]

He also said, Have you forgotten? I don\'t take people\'s word for things, regardless of which side they\'re on. Well he did take the word of those alleged victims of child abuse, most of whom have never reported it to the authorities. At any rate there has never been a basis for a trial or conviction. At the time Bob got involved he did not know if there was such a statute and still did not try to report it. Now since it was some time ago they will not come forward leaving Bob in a pickle to soak in his own brine. Still he expected that 3ABN should have investigated and done something he could not do anything about. All the talk of a cover up has no basis as no proof has ever been given for such, just the words of those working against 3ABN.

I wonder if you can understand the failure of victims to report their abuse is not uncommon. For the one that does come forward,there usually is more that can't.  If Bob Pickle had the knowledge and it was still going on,or within the time limit  of course of course he had an obligation to report. But if Bob knew, then it is not a leap to believe that DS knew the same thing. Did he report it?? As for the time frame according to MN law,I probably would have thought it was to late to go to the authorities as well. It was only learning the hard way as to what MN law is. The pastor in our situation committed a felony. Mn conference knew for a year there was a BIG problem and did nothing.

honestly do not know if there were any alleged victims or not nor do I know anything personal about TS. But, somehow we have all forgotten that there has been nothing reported in all the years from then to now. We have also forgotten that even if TS had done something years ago how do we know that he has not repented and left it in the past. When the Lord talked with the woman in sin, He told her to go and sin no more. None of us know TS heart and the heart of the alleged victims except Jesus. Isn’t it time to stop being the accusers of the brethren? Let it go and let God. 

We have also forgotten that even if TS had done something years ago how do we know that he has not repented and left it in the past. When the Lord talked with the woman in sin, He told her to go and sin no more. None of us know TS heart and

When people do not acknowledge,ask for forgivness it is tough to believe there is any repentence

That doesn't even matter, those that work with him, those that have come to trust him and could be harmed by his behaviour deserve to know.

[bonnie]

Bonnie, you said, he lost his minsterial credentials for immoral conduct?  Where is the proof for this statement? As far as I know while the allegations were being investigated his license was suspended. When the investigation ended, he retained his license.

I was under the impression he had lost it for good.  I am sorry  for having said such if not true.

It still doesn't answer many questions. Now that you say TS did not lose but was suspended temporaily how  was that was dealt with, given his letter of what appeared to be pretty damning against TS.
If is liscense was suspended pending outcome,what did those investigationg make out of his letter



edited to correct sentence

[Bob Pickle]

It would be highly unusual for a State law to say the above.  None of the laws of which I am aquainted make "belief" a condition of the requirement to report.

That's the way the statute I quoted was worded.

[bonnie]

child of God,
Can you respond to the email enclosed. Not as in Bob Pickle was derelict in his obligation to report.
Just what you think of this email. This type of behaviour is almost classic for a sex predator. Then could you explain a written apology from the Church of God,and then lifting the suspension on his credentials?

For those readers who aren't sure what Tommy Shelton was accused of doing, here's is the statement of Pastor Brad Dunning taken from http://www.save-3abn.com/tommy-shelton-victim-brad-dunning.htm.

For those who want to condemn the alleged victims for not doing more, take note that the explanation Tommy Shelton is alleged to have told at the time is that Brad was trying to get other boys into homosexual activity, and Tommy was trying to bring it out in the open by propositioning him. But Brad never knew Tommy was saying anything like that about him.

From:     Brad Dunning
Subject:     RE: Here's my email, Pastor Dunning.
Date:     Thu, 4 Jan 2007 16:09:11 -0600

Dear Bob,

Here is my follow up email from our telephone conversation yesterday January 3rd, 2007.

The purpose of this communication is to give you a personal account of how I was assaulted by Tommy Shelton, then Pastor of the Ezra Church of God.

I believe it was in the 1982-83 school year. I was a student in the Ezra Church of God Christian School. I was an honor student and a member of the basketball team.

On the day of my encounter with Tommy Shelton, here is what took place.

I was in the gym playing basketball one afternoon by myself. I had extra free time as I was an "E" privilege student.

Ricky Shelton came to the gym and told me that his dad wanted to see me in his office. So I left the gym and went to the Pastor's office. Tommy invited me in and closed the door. He sat behind his desk, I sat on the couch.

He began to tell me that he was really embarrassed to talk about this, but he needed my help. He said that he had a problem with his t*******s. It was a medical condition that was causing them to bleed. I asked him if he had been to the doctor. He replied that he was too embarrassed to be seen by the nurses and that he would not go.

He said that he had prayed about it, and God showed him how that he could be healed. He told me that God showed him that if he could apply the s***m of another man, that the proteins would heal his t*******s. He then asked me if I would be willing to help him by applying my s***m to his t*******s.

Being in shock, I told him that I had to think about it and left his office. I went home that afternoon and told my mother all that had gone on.

I did not return to school. My mother, my grandfather and I, went back to the school and confronted Tommy. He denied everything and told my Grandfather that no one would believe us and he would win.

We then went to the West Frankfort Police Department and filed a formal complaint. To my knowledge, no charges were brought against Tommy. Our family suspected that Tommy was being protected by State Police officers who were members of his congregation.

My mother and I moved to Houston, TX shortly after that.

A few years later, we were told that Tommy had been caught with other boys. Some who were personal friends of mine while I was at Ezra.

One of the boys later apologized to me for not speaking up when I did.

My mother received an official written apology from the Church of God. I had not had any communication with Tommy Shelton since that event took place.

If I can be of any further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Because of Him,

Brad Dunning
www.facs4u.com[/quote]
[/quote]

[Bob Pickle]

Well he did take the word of those alleged victims of child abuse, most of whom have never reported it to the authorities.

And where did I do that? True, while it is hard to believe that seven alleged victims and the mother of an eighth and the written answers of a ninth could all be lies, I still call them alleged victims, don't I?

But, somehow we have all forgotten that there has been nothing reported in all the years from then to now.

Where did you come up with that?

Roger Clem went public in 2003. Duane in 2007. Someone had to flee Tommy's car around 1991, which resulted, I understand, in Tommy leaving 3ABN. And others came forward in the 1980's and within the last few years.

Or by reported are you referring to a certain kind of reporting?

We have also forgotten that even if TS had done something years ago how do we know that he has not repented and left it in the past.

If he has repented, how come he hasn't given evidence of that repentance by making things right? Why did he participate in that outrageous tribute in which he said that if it weren't for the ferry he could cope? Why did he send out that open letter threatening a lawsuit? Why did he and 3ABN have Riva send out that nasty letter? Why did he allow Riva to send out that letter in 2003 threatening legal action on the grounds that even if the actions did occur, the statute of limitations has run out?

Isn’t it time to stop being the accusers of the brethren? Let it go and let God.

Let God do what? Let God pour out his judgments because we were so hard hearted we didn't speak up?

Are you suggesting that even if Tommy is a perpetrator and unrepentant, that he is still a brother and we shouldn't say anything? Not even to the authorities since that would be accusing the brethren? And have you accepted the heresy that there is never grounds for church discipline? Even for child molestation?

[Child_of_God]

Bonnie, I do not have all the information so I cannot give the whole picture. The investigation was years ago. The letter was written last year.

[Child_of_God]

Bob, I only have one thing to say to you because I refuse to get caught up in your devious tricks. Maybe TS got a lawyer because you were publically maligning his character. That is against the law you know.

[bonnie]

Bonnie, I do not have all the information so I cannot give the whole picture. The investigation was years ago. The letter was written last year.

If you are lacking the whole picture how is it you can criticize others ??
But you can answer to what yo have read.

In the email from an intended victim of DS what do you suppose he was proposing to this man Brad?.
If in fact his license was only suspended during investigation and then re-instated, what motivation would there be for a written apology for something that never happened?

If you do not have the facts or only a portion of them,how can you so strongly defend one side.

I don't care what else took place,this one is fairly obvious and should  be seen as a problem concerning the idolization of DS.

[Sam]

I have three stories from three different people that all indicate that Danny has known about this problem for years. So one obvious question is whether Danny ever reported it to the authorities, and if not, why not.

I think this pretty much says it all.  This couldn't be any kinder or anymore factual than it is.


------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Gailons last email to me. "We got a problem"
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:26:23 -0600
From: Walt Thompson
CC: Danny Shelton

Dear Bob,

The allegations against Tommy were made about 30 years ago. They were
reported to the proper authorities. No physical actions ever occured.
Tommy appologized to the kids and offered recompence. The DA said there
was no case. No restrictions were ever imposed. Tommy is employed by
3abn with full board approval, knowing the facts. The author of a book,
"These kind don't change, do they?" was interviewed on 3abn recently.
You may wish to purchase that book and read itl (The sad thing about
this is that the ones who are loudest in spreading falsehood know this,
yet continue to agitate and keep the fires burning.)

Jesus said, he that is without sin, let him cast the first stone. I
would echo Jesus statements today. All of us at 3abn are human. All have
sinned. But, thank God, He forgives and uses our fallings as stimulants
to make us grow. 3ABN is in the work of healing broken people, but we
too are still in a sense broken. Almost every employee has a record they
would not be proud of. Yet, Got takes great pleasure in accomplishing
His purposes on earth by people just such as us. No where in the Bible
are there examples of people who have fallen who have suffered the wrath
of God who have confessed their sins and learned from their mistakes.
Yet, for the past almost 3 years 3abn has been bombarded with lies and
insinuations. Of course, we know where they come from, and we know that
no one ever wins when he enters argument with the devil. Therefore, we
have tried to let the Lord fight our battles. We have resisted the
temptation to take on the battle ourselves and I am sure have sometimes
said too much or too little, but never the less, know in our hearts that
we have taken the high road in this battle. Attorneys that have looked
at the evidence agree full heartedly. While not everyone may agree with
the decisions we have made, we have continued to rejoice with the
blessing of our Lord.

Yes, it is wearing. I can only thank God for giving Danny the strength
of faith and health to hang on as he has done. I am sure it is only by
God's amazing grace that this has occured. And I must thank our faithful
viewers and supporters who by their prayers of intercession have joined
the powers of heaven in this battle.

You speak of the need for damage control. Please place yourself in
Danny's shoes for just one day and try to imagine how you would respond.
Then imagine being the source of bombardment day after day, seemingly
unendingly. It has not been easy. Danny is a fighter. Without his
determination and resiliency, this ministry would have been taken down
long ago. I have no doubt that God chose Danny for this task,
recognizing that all of our greatest strengths are sometimes also our
greatest weaknesses. Yes, I know he sometimes would be better off to
keep quiet, let the Lord fight his battles and relax, but that is not
always easy. Most of all is the difficulty of knowing when to speak and
when to be silent. God told ancient Israel that they should wait upon
the Lord and He would fight their battles, but I find it interesting
that they still had to go into battle and fight - Gideon is the classic
example. While God took the battle into His own hands, Israel was called
to do it's part before God could do His thing. Rather than faulting
Danny for his tendencies to defend himself, I find I must lift him up in
prayer.

You propse to me "that folks who have a few questions would not be
called 'accusers." This would ordinarily be true, but when in battle for
long periods of time, even good soldiers sometimes develop shell shock.
When "friends" turn out to be enemies over and over again, one soon
"learns" that he can trust no one. A number of e mails and letters that
I have written as private responses have appeared on the Internet
forums, "spun" to fit the desire of the "friend" who placed them there.

Thanks for your interest,

walt
Walter Thompson MD

This subject needs to be dropped.  Pickle only brings it up again as the rest of his accusations have been made null and void by a Federal Office so he has nothing left but a he said she said situation.  Give it up Bob and go to something that concerns the lawsuit you are involved in.

[Bob Pickle]

Bob, I only have one thing to say to you because I refuse to get caught up in your devious tricks. Maybe TS got a lawyer because you were publically maligning his character. That is against the law you know.

I knew nothing about this when Riva sent his letter in 2003. I didn't know about the allegations against Tommy Shelton until 2006.

Could you give an example of where you have shown the same skepticism of the other side's claims?