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[Artiste]

Are you saying that they may believe their cause is just even though possibly conceding, even if not aloud, that allegations against Danny's and Walt's actions or lack of actions might be correct?

[Bob Pickle]

Whether they believe their cause is just or not I cannot say.

[Kitty]

We need to be caeful about lumping folk of different stripes into the same camp.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Come now.  One might say that there are well-informed, active people on both sides who do not believe that they are on a righteouls crusade. 

Even if one did this, surely one would still say that there are many on each side who are on a righteours crusade to protect the integrity of God's work and His church.

NOTE: On a personal basis, I am willing to acknowledge that all involved people beleive that they are on a righteous crusade.

Strange, isn't it...it begins in an effort to discern and publish the truth...to exonerate the downtrodden and put a spotlight on the miscreants who violated Linda's due process rights those four years ago, to level the playing field for those who were alleged victims of Tommy Ray Shelton and to give opportunity for those who were victims of the "Trust Services Massacre" to recover their dues and tell their stories.

The information battle raged for months and turned into a firestorm when christian broadcasters, best known as "televangelists", felt the sting of documented evidence eroding their support and turned to the civil courts in an effort to stop the flow of information. Ironically, the battle simply raged on at a new fever pitch and the information portals opened wide open, much to the chagrin of the litigators. In the conflagration that ensued few would stand tall and be counted on either side for fear of being sued. Others waivered in the wind trying to get a feel for the way the wind would blow. But small bands here, there and everywhere continued the unabated battles on both sides, sometimes behind psuedonyms and
firewalls. Through it all, there was to be no banner to be found. No flag to follow and no "army" on any side of this strangely multi-parous war.

Then, out of the blue, a request for assistance with the return of service for a subpeona to an individual outside the Walla Walla area suddenly explodes right in our hands and we find one with whom we were of united purpose clarifying that it was the purpose of their new circle to rescue the central figure in this saga from the "clutches" of those misguided and to help her to put distance between herself and Pickle and Joy. A new dimension indeed!!! Intrigue of the finest kind!!! And clarity quickly came out of the fog...Pickle and Joy had leprosy...yes, leprosy was the culprit...stay away at all costs!!!

Yes, suddenly, we were the problem. We had become the oppressors. We were the reason her career would not recover. We were the source of the problem that kept directors and officers of 3ABN working overtime to prevent her public speaking is the SDA churches. Our defense was just too strong an offense for the easily offended and we were clearly destined to loose the defamation lawsuit!!!

Indeed, a re-alignment of attorneys became neccasary as the conflict became grossly apparent. And there is no question that sources are no longer reliable witnesses so they can move on with their lives and avoid leprosy...and documentation is now the key.

The purported Tommy victims once again have elected to simply move on without tackling the ghost of times past that haunts them.

And the victims of the "Trust Services Massacre" are now retired or working for the denomination and fear the repercussions of civil litigation against the brethren...and just want to move on with their lives.

In summary, Mr Gregory, these are not "crusaders"...on the contrary, they elect to avoid conflict at every turn; they do not challenge evil, but would rather elect by default to co-exist with it in some form of peaceful detante. LAODICEA is alive and well and the Aachans that Grandma Nettie refers to run unchallenged and brazenly unfettered throughout christendom under the guise of "crusaders" for Christ while picking the pockets of the saints and the not so saintly in their crusading campaigns. 

No, Mr Gregory, there is no "righteous crusade' but simply a war; an insidious un-civil war where there are no "loyalties". Their is no army and one cannot count on the truth, support or ethics of "christians" and their morally challenged "compass".

The paths on every front are littered with the bodies of the less battle hardened and the weak. And the strong plunder on without regard to the broken and bleeding bodies on all sides of the many battlefields.

Ironically, one can only document their way to victory and trust the truth will be revealed and that those who see it, recognize it. The remainder will remain ignorant unto death. So be it!!!

But, the lesson learned once, again and forever, It was Joy and Pickle that troubleth Israel!!!

Here, in the twists and turns of this LITTLE saga, has been played out all the intrique, backstabbing and bitter engagements that illuminate the Great Controversy of which we are all a part. Will there be any winners or are we all in some important way loosers???

Maybe, just maybe, the missing element in the entire process has been CHRISTIANITY!!! In other words, maybe we ALL are on the outside looking in!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy

[Gregory]

NOTE:  I have abridged the following quote and I am inserting my responses and comments in brackets  [ ] .

Come now.  One might say that there are well-informed, active people on both sides who do not believe that they are on a righteouls crusade. 

Even if one did this, surely one would still say that there are many on each side who are on a righteours crusade to protect the integrity of God's work and His church.

NOTE: On a personal basis, I am willing to acknowledge that all involved people beleive that they are on a righteous crusade.

Then, out of the blue, a request for assistance with the return of service for a subpeona to an individual outside the Walla Walla area suddenly explodes right in our hands and we find one with whom we were of united purpose clarifying that it was the purpose of their new circle to rescue the central figure in this saga from the "clutches" of those misguided and to help her to put distance between herself and Pickle and Joy. A new dimension indeed!!! Intrigue of the finest kind!!! And clarity quickly came out of the fog...Pickle and Joy had leprosy...yes, leprosy was the culprit...stay away at all costs!!!

[Yes,Gailon, this was a new dimension.  This change in direction cam from Linda herself, as you well know.   It was her personal decision and it was not one that anyone else attempted to persuade her to make--Gregory Matthews.]

Yes, suddenly, we were the problem. We had become the oppressors. We were the reason her career would not recover. We were the source of the problem that kept directors and officers of 3ABN working overtime to prevent her public speaking is the SDA churches. Our defense was just too strong an offense for the easily offended and we were clearly destined to loose the defamation lawsuit!!!

[The above seems to me to be an overstatement (exrageration) but, if you want to make that claim, so be it--Gregory Matthews.]

Indeed, a re-alignment of attorneys became neccasary as the conflict became grossly apparent. And there is no question that sources are no longer reliable witnesses so they can move on with their lives and avoid leprosy...and documentation is now the key.

[Yes, as you well know and I believe you publicly stated in a post here in Advent Talk, the litigation had become so complex that it was appropriate to consider how Linda's interests could best be represented and that was what she requested.  But, that is simply how some legal cases develop should simply be considered a normal consequence of how this case was developing.  That happens regularly in  litigation.  Lawyers advise their client to seek further assistance from other litigators.  But, you know that--Gregory Matthews.]


In summary, Mr Gregory, these are not "crusaders"...on the contrary, they elect to avoid conflict at every turn; they do not challenge evil, but would rather elect by default to co-exist with it in some form of peaceful detante. LAODICEA is alive and well and the Aachans that Grandma Nettie refers to run unchallenged and brazenly unfettered throughout christendom under the guise of "crusaders" for Christ while picking the pockets of the saints and the not so saintly in their crusading campaigns. 

[Gailon, litigation seldom settles every aspect of the case in a nice neat manner.  In the very beginning I stated that each side of the litigatin would probably win some and lose some and it would remain to be seen who would be the ultimate winner.  Many of the aspects of this case lie outside of the ability of the denomination to resolve and lie in the realm of the civil authorities.  IRS compoliance, copyright, defamation of character and much more clearly are outside of denominaitonal bounds and lie in the civil realm.  Clearly, you and others associated with you, back in the very beginning, proclaimed that you would welcome the civil authorities to enter the fray and to render their judgement.  This lawsuit is clearly the answer to the desire of some for the civil authorities to become involved as was the IRS investigation.  The reality is that any failure of the IRS to find wrong doing is a major blow to those who made a major issue of IRS compliance.  The reality is that the likely hood of 3-ABN prevailing in the lawsuit in regard to libel and defamination of character is greatly increased.  Like it or not, the civil authorities will render their verdict in the issues before them and people will have to live with that verdict regardles of what it is--Gregory Matthews.]

No, Mr Gregory, there is no "righteous crusade' but simply a war; an insidious un-civil war where there are no "loyalties". Their is no army and one cannot count on the truth, support or ethics of "christians" and their morally challenged "compass".

[In regard to "righteous crusade," as I have said, I believe that people on both sides believed that they werr on a righteous crusade defending truth and justice.  Those who cannot understand this are simply showing their failure to understand the issues.  One of the aspects of war is the requirement to understand the thinking of the other side.  A failure to understand the thinking of the other side will typically resullt in a compromised battle plan--Gregory Matthews.] 

The paths on every front are littered with the bodies of the less battle hardened and the weak. And the strong plunder on without regard to the broken and bleeding bodies on all sides of the many battlefields.

Ironically, one can only document their way to victory and trust the truth will be revealed and that those who see it, recognize it. The remainder will remain ignorant unto death. So be it!!!

But, the lesson learned once, again and forever, It was Joy and Pickle that troubleth Israel!!!

Here, in the twists and turns of this LITTLE saga, has been played out all the intrique, backstabbing and bitter engagements that illuminate the Great Controversy of which we are all a part. Will there be any winners or are we all in some important way loosers???

Maybe, just maybe, the missing element in the entire process has been CHRISTIANITY!!! In other words, maybe we ALL are on the outside looking in!!!

[Ah, Gailon, your have hit on a major truth in my thinking.  One issue as I see it is that people on both sides have decended to doing what they accuse the other side of doing--Gregory Matthews.]

[NOTE: In the above statement, I do not refer to criminal activites.  So, I am not accusing anyone of committing any crimes--Gregory Matthews.]

Gailon Arthur Joy

By the way, The Boston area is a beautifu area.  At the request of the General Conference I spent 6 days there in May.  I had not visited Boston since about 1979.  Congratulations on living in a nice area.

[GrandmaNettie]

Gregory, you have spoken well!  You have answered each of Gailon's statements with clear, straight and truth and given an opportunity for all who read to take pause and consider.  I am highlighting your statements and then will further respond to both you and Gailon below.

NOTE:  I have abridged the following quote and I am inserting my responses and comments in brackets  [ ] .

Come now.  One might say that there are well-informed, active people on both sides who do not believe that they are on a righteouls crusade. 

Even if one did this, surely one would still say that there are many on each side who are on a righteours crusade to protect the integrity of God's work and His church.

NOTE: On a personal basis, I am willing to acknowledge that all involved people beleive that they are on a righteous crusade.

Then, out of the blue, a request for assistance with the return of service for a subpeona to an individual outside the Walla Walla area suddenly explodes right in our hands and we find one with whom we were of united purpose clarifying that it was the purpose of their new circle to rescue the central figure in this saga from the "clutches" of those misguided and to help her to put distance between herself and Pickle and Joy. A new dimension indeed!!! Intrigue of the finest kind!!! And clarity quickly came out of the fog...Pickle and Joy had leprosy...yes, leprosy was the culprit...stay away at all costs!!!

[Yes,Gailon, this was a new dimension.  This change in direction cam from Linda herself, as you well know.   It was her personal decision and it was not one that anyone else attempted to persuade her to make--Gregory Matthews.]

Yes, suddenly, we were the problem. We had become the oppressors. We were the reason her career would not recover. We were the source of the problem that kept directors and officers of 3ABN working overtime to prevent her public speaking is the SDA churches. Our defense was just too strong an offense for the easily offended and we were clearly destined to loose the defamation lawsuit!!!

[The above seems to me to be an overstatement (exrageration) but, if you want to make that claim, so be it--Gregory Matthews.]

Indeed, a re-alignment of attorneys became neccasary as the conflict became grossly apparent. And there is no question that sources are no longer reliable witnesses so they can move on with their lives and avoid leprosy...and documentation is now the key.

[Yes, as you well know and I believe you publicly stated in a post here in Advent Talk, the litigation had become so complex that it was appropriate to consider how Linda's interests could best be represented and that was what she requested.  But, that is simply how some legal cases develop should simply be considered a normal consequence of how this case was developing.  That happens regularly in  litigation.  Lawyers advise their client to seek further assistance from other litigators.  But, you know that--Gregory Matthews.]

In summary, Mr Gregory, these are not "crusaders"...on the contrary, they elect to avoid conflict at every turn; they do not challenge evil, but would rather elect by default to co-exist with it in some form of peaceful detante. LAODICEA is alive and well and the Aachans that Grandma Nettie refers to run unchallenged and brazenly unfettered throughout christendom under the guise of "crusaders" for Christ while picking the pockets of the saints and the not so saintly in their crusading campaigns. 

[Gailon, litigation seldom settles every aspect of the case in a nice neat manner.  In the very beginning I stated that each side of the litigatin would probably win some and lose some and it would remain to be seen who would be the ultimate winner.  Many of the aspects of this case lie outside of the ability of the denomination to resolve and lie in the realm of the civil authorities.  IRS compoliance, copyright, defamation of character and much more clearly are outside of denominaitonal bounds and lie in the civil realm.  Clearly, you and others associated with you, back in the very beginning, proclaimed that you would welcome the civil authorities to enter the fray and to render their judgement.  This lawsuit is clearly the answer to the desire of some for the civil authorities to become involved as was the IRS investigation.  The reality is that any failure of the IRS to find wrong doing is a major blow to those who made a major issue of IRS compliance.  The reality is that the likely hood of 3-ABN prevailing in the lawsuit in regard to libel and defamination of character is greatly increased.  Like it or not, the civil authorities will render their verdict in the issues before them and people will have to live with that verdict regardles of what it is--Gregory Matthews.]

No, Mr Gregory, there is no "righteous crusade' but simply a war; an insidious un-civil war where there are no "loyalties". Their is no army and one cannot count on the truth, support or ethics of "christians" and their morally challenged "compass".

[In regard to "righteous crusade," as I have said, I believe that people on both sides believed that they werr on a righteous crusade defending truth and justice.  Those who cannot understand this are simply showing their failure to understand the issues.  One of the aspects of war is the requirement to understand the thinking of the other side.  A failure to understand the thinking of the other side will typically resullt in a compromised battle plan--Gregory Matthews.] 

The paths on every front are littered with the bodies of the less battle hardened and the weak. And the strong plunder on without regard to the broken and bleeding bodies on all sides of the many battlefields.

Ironically, one can only document their way to victory and trust the truth will be revealed and that those who see it, recognize it. The remainder will remain ignorant unto death. So be it!!!

But, the lesson learned once, again and forever, It was Joy and Pickle that troubleth Israel!!!

Here, in the twists and turns of this LITTLE saga, has been played out all the intrique, backstabbing and bitter engagements that illuminate the Great Controversy of which we are all a part. Will there be any winners or are we all in some important way loosers???

Maybe, just maybe, the missing element in the entire process has been CHRISTIANITY!!! In other words, maybe we ALL are on the outside looking in!!!

[Ah, Gailon, your have hit on a major truth in my thinking.  One issue as I see it is that people on both sides have decended to doing what they accuse the other side of doing--Gregory Matthews.]

[NOTE: In the above statement, I do not refer to criminal activites.  So, I am not accusing anyone of committing any crimes--Gregory Matthews.]
Gailon Arthur Joy

By the way, The Boston area is a beautifu area.  At the request of the General Conference I spent 6 days there in May.  I had not visited Boston since about 1979.  Congratulations on living in a nice area.

As I said above, Gregory, you have spoken well....very well. Gailon, even in your own grandiose way and even though much of what you said had a ring of satire, irony and sarcasm to it, if I was hearing you properly, you demostrated that on some level you do understand where the investigation diverted from the higher road.

Kitty was correct when she stated "We need to be caeful about lumping folk of different stripes into the same camp."  There are not only two sides in this saga, there are many; far too many to even begin to define.  In one of my posts yesterday, I did not speak well.    I lumped us all into two narrow groups and characterized those two groups far too rigidly.  It was a poorly stated expression of what was on my heart.

I have witnessed so many of those I care about arguing contentiously with each other.  I have seen those who are representing themselves as Christians take aim at others who are not main characters in this saga in an attempt to make them look bad, this from more than one side, btw. And then there is the use of the terms "dark side" and "clones" and other demeaning labels and characterizations to attempt to belittle the value of those seen as adversaries... Why is this necessary?

Any time any one of us feels we have license  to treat another in a manner that would not be approved of by God, we have diverted from the proper pathway and have begun to fight the battle with the adversary's tools.  Most of us have done this, myself included.  Any time we decide our own battle plan is better than God's plan, more effective for getting the victory we desire or the vengence or even the vindication, we exhibit similar self-serving tendencies that Achan did.  Isn't that the lesson to be learned for Achan's story?

We are a broadly diverse group with varying personalities and characters, but many of us claim a common bond.  I stand with Gregory in believing that Gailon hit on a major truth when he said:

"Maybe, just maybe, the missing element in the entire process has been CHRISTIANITY!!!"

Yes, when practiced as designed by the One it represents!

[Johann]

Neither ain't clarifying nothin. Too many trying to explain what nobody said.

[Johann]

Who is blaming who?

[Gregory]

Gailon:

your following comment was an interesting one with clear legal aspects:

". . . rescue the central figure in this saga from the "clutches" of those misguided and to help her to put distance between herself and Pickle and Joy."


By making this as a public statement, for the world at large to read you have opened it up for public discussion.  If any of the involved parties want to do so you have effectively given them permission to discuss publicly any and all aspects of as you put it, a resuce from yourself.  In essence, you have waieved any right to confidentiality.

[Johann]

What is confidentiality? Does it give anyone the right to make untrue statements?

[Gregory]

What is confidentiality? Does it give anyone the right to make untrue statements?

Johann:In the United States the right of a person to make an untrue statement is governed by the First Ammendment.

However, in a situation where confidentiality is involved, and an untrue statement is made, or even a public statement that is true, the right to confidentiality will often be considered to have been waieved.

You see there are two issues that may come into play:

1) When a person who holds the right to confidentiality attacks another that holder of confidentiality can not prevent the attacked person from responding to the attack to include responding by revealing confidential infnormaiton.  That attack will be considered to be a waiever of confidentiallity.

2) When the person who holds the right to confidentiality comments publicy (or in many cases even comments privately) in regard to a situation covered by confidentialy will be considered to have waieved that confidentiality.  In short, if you want to something to be kept confidential, do not make any public comment about it in any manner, and in most cases (with a few exceptions) do not make any private comment about it.  If you do, you may be considered to have waieved any right you have to confidentiality.

Folks, a number of people have  given up a lot due to the public and private comments that they have made.

[GrandmaNettie]

What is confidentiality? Does it give anyone the right to make untrue statements?

As Gregory has explained, when a public statement is made about a subject where confidentiality is involved, that will often cause the right to confidentiality to be waived.

It gives others the right to make statements.  If they choose to make untrue statements, that will be unfortunate.  I am certain that Gregory will not do so.  Nobody needs to defend themselves with untruths in this case.  The best defense is simply the truth.  Sadly, some have believed the untruths that have already been told.

When the truth is told, I will not be surprised if some view it as untrue.  Those who are so invested, so loyal that they have bought the lies that have been told will likely continue to do so even when, ultimately, the evidence is clear.  That seems to be the nature of this conflict.

[Snoopy]

I wonder if you will be one of them, GrandmaNettie?

When the truth is told, I will not be surprised if some view it as untrue.  Those who are so invested, so loyal that they have bought the lies that have been told will likely continue to do so even when, ultimately, the evidence is clear.  That seems to be the nature of this conflict.

[Johann]

What is confidentiality? Does it give anyone the right to make untrue statements?

Johann:In the United States the right of a person to make an untrue statement is governed by the First Ammendment.

However, in a situation where confidentiality is involved, and an untrue statement is made, or even a public statement that is true, the right to confidentiality will often be considered to have been waieved.

You see there are two issues that may come into play:

1) When a person who holds the right to confidentiality attacks another that holder of confidentiality can not prevent the attacked person from responding to the attack to include responding by revealing confidential infnormaiton.  That attack will be considered to be a waiever of confidentiallity.

2) When the person who holds the right to confidentiality comments publicy (or in many cases even comments privately) in regard to a situation covered by confidentialy will be considered to have waieved that confidentiality.  In short, if you want to something to be kept confidential, do not make any public comment about it in any manner, and in most cases (with a few exceptions) do not make any private comment about it.  If you do, you may be considered to have waieved any right you have to confidentiality.

Folks, a number of people have  given up a lot due to the public and private comments that they have made.

Fully agreed. Let's stick to it.

[Johann]

What is confidentiality? Does it give anyone the right to make untrue statements?

As Gregory has explained, when a public statement is made about a subject where confidentiality is involved, that will often cause the right to confidentiality to be waived.

It gives others the right to make statements.  If they choose to make untrue statements, that will be unfortunate.  I am certain that Gregory will not do so.  Nobody needs to defend themselves with untruths in this case.  The best defense is simply the truth.  Sadly, some have believed the untruths that have already been told.

When the truth is told, I will not be surprised if some view it as untrue.  Those who are so invested, so loyal that they have bought the lies that have been told will likely continue to do so even when, ultimately, the evidence is clear.  That seems to be the nature of this conflict.

But Gregory has just stated that the First - I had almost written Commandment here - but it should be Amendment - governs whether one decides to say a lie? Are some making use of this right? - Or the provision given by the Fifth?