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[GrammieT]

Just exactly how is this topic different than what Bonnie has been saying.  The article is precisely what she has been talking about.  Can you not see that???

This article is NOT what I've been talking about though, and she's used my words to say otherwise.

It is possible that you have not had any experience with the type of abuse that is being shown here, Freeindeed,

Actually, it isn't possible.

and therefore you have a very idealistic way of looking at it.

 
And this is exactly why this has become a VERY different topic.  It's not 'idealistic' to recognize that Jesus has called his followers to forgive their enemies (THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHURCH/DENOMINATIONS/RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY/ETC. OR THE LIKES OF THE ATTROCITIES LIKE THOSE MENTIONED IN THE OP!) 

Just what would you propose to do in the case brought up in the OP?

He should be tried in the courts and go to jail for his crimes.

The denomination he worked for should NEVER hire him to a position of influence again.

There is NO CHURCH that has ANY authority to hand out forgiveness in the way described in the OP.  It's NOT Scriptural and I vehemently disagree with the action (rather LACK of action) taken.  NOBODY should be able to hide criminal activity of ANY sort behind the veil of a church/denomination.  It is hypocircy in the highest degree and is as anti-Christian as can be as it is a false testimony of Jesus Christ. 

As far as I am concerned, until you can show that you truly understand what the REAL DEAL is here, there is nothing you can say that in any way will give either the pain of the victim or even the serial predator a workable solution to either of their problems.  Especially if your solution results in the continuation of the actions as has been shown in the article presented AND IT USUALLY DOES!      This man has NO CONSCIENCE!!  Would you allow him to continue working with YOUR CHURCH FAMILY???!!!  Would you see that his contact with vulnerable people is brought to an ABRUPT END in incarceration as it should be.   Or would you slap him on the wrist, send him on his way as far too many of our conference officers do and just GET HIM OUT OF YOUR HAIR?!?!?!

I think I've answered this adequately above.  This is why I KNOW that bonnie and others have COMPLETELY misunderstood the point I've been trying to make as far as what a Christ-follower's response is to those who have wronged them in some way.  Forgiveness that comes from God (the ability HE gives us to forgive) DOES NOT enable predators and perpetrators to harm us again!  In fact, quite the opposite.  Being IN CHIRST makes us VICTORS, not victims.  I'm not sure where the rub is.  People don't forgive because someone tells them they should, rather I believe it is the supernatural work of God himself living in them.

I hope that THIS post clears up some misconceptions about what I've been saying all along. 

In CHRIST alone...

Thank you for giving a better understanding of your position.   That certainly helps a lot and I think that Bonnie and Ozzie will appreciate your post too.  And I hope that my next post has further helped you to understand our position. 

Sincerely in Christ,  GrammieT

[inga]

I think I've answered this adequately above.  This is why I KNOW that bonnie and others have COMPLETELY misunderstood the point I've been trying to make as far as what a Christ-follower's response is to those who have wronged them in some way.  Forgiveness that comes from God (the ability HE gives us to forgive) DOES NOT enable predators and perpetrators to harm us again!  In fact, quite the opposite.  Being IN CHIRST makes us VICTORS, not victims.  I'm not sure where the rub is.  People don't forgive because someone tells them they should, rather I believe it is the supernatural work of God himself living in them.

I hope that THIS post clears up some misconceptions about what I've been saying all along. 

In CHRIST alone...

Freeindeed, thank you for clearing things up a bit by explaining what should be done with sexual predators.

There is a right time and a wrong time to give counsel on forgiveness, such as you have given. Victims first need a chance to be angry at their abuser before they can forgive. They need to be helped to recognize that it is not their fault. It is the abuser's fault. Suggesting "forgiveness" before they are allowed to come to this realization is highly inappropriate. (They have nothing to forgive, since everyone around them seems to suggest the abuser did nothing wrong. It is a fact that victims often feel it is "their fault." Abusers usually try to make them feel that way, and too often they succeed.)

And, of course, the victim's forgiveness does not absolve the abuser of his responsibility. His crime still needs to be dealt with. (And it seems you understand that.)

I suspect you mean well, but you don't appear to understand the issues clearly enough to be able to offer appropriate advice on such a volatile and sensitive topic. At times like that silence is golden.

Be blessed ...

[GrammieT]

I think I've answered this adequately above.  This is why I KNOW that bonnie and others have COMPLETELY misunderstood the point I've been trying to make as far as what a Christ-follower's response is to those who have wronged them in some way.  Forgiveness that comes from God (the ability HE gives us to forgive) DOES NOT enable predators and perpetrators to harm us again!  In fact, quite the opposite.  Being IN CHIRST makes us VICTORS, not victims.  I'm not sure where the rub is.  People don't forgive because someone tells them they should, rather I believe it is the supernatural work of God himself living in them.

I hope that THIS post clears up some misconceptions about what I've been saying all along. 

In CHRIST alone...

Freeindeed, thank you for clearing things up a bit by explaining what should be done with sexual predators.

There is a right time and a wrong time to give counsel on forgiveness, such as you have given. Victims first need a chance to be angry at their abuser before they are can forgive. They need to be helped to recognize that it is not their fault. It is the abuser's fault. Suggesting "forgiveness" before they are allowed to come to this realization is highly inappropriate. (They have nothing to forgive, since everyone around them seems to suggest the abuser did nothing wrong. It is a fact that victims often feel it is "their fault." Abusers usually try to make them feel that way, and too often they succeed.)

I suspect you mean well, but you don't appear to understand the issues clearly enough to be able to offer appropriate advice on such a volatile and sensitive topic. At times like that silence is golden.

Be blessed ...

Dear Inga:

You perhaps, did a better job than I did with your explanation, but between the two of us I hope that we have helped our friend, Free, understand where we are coming from and that, while his point is well taken, the timing is a very important element that must be acknowledged and applied appropriately.

GrammieT

[Freeindeed]

Free, you are still running around the treadmill.     We are not dealing with the normal kind of transgression here.

What is a 'NORMAL kind of transgression'?  NO transgression against God is 'normal'.  That's the point!  That's why it's called 'SIN'!

And you can say all you want to that 'to forgive as Christ forgave us' is applicable.  It is only applicable after the predator has been dealt with regarding his behavior.

I would love to see Scripture that supports that theory... 

I will agree, however, that forgiveness is a necessary thing, but only in the context that the victim has been carefully and lovingly heard and reassured that they were in no way responsible for what happened to them or anyone else if they had been instructed to 'not tell' or otherwise threatened.  There is much more to this area but I will not go into that here.

There is much more to it.  The 'victim' is not responsible for what a perpetrator has done.  However they CANNOT continue to be a victim for the rest of their lives.

In the example of the article in the OP, that man was just shuffled around the area and given free reign to raid other trusting congregations.  Thank God that he has finally been caught up with.  Does he need forgiveness?  Of course, but he must never have opportunity to do his hurtful acts again.  In his case, HE needs to take full responsibility for his behavior by always informing the officers of the churches he attends that he will not be available for office and he should never be allowed without a chaperone in the restrooms, or anywhere that others could be alone with him.  He should be willing to have the congregation know that he is not to be trusted, and that they should be extra cautious around him.   Otherwise he has not taken the responsibility that forgiveness gives him.  In other words, forgiveness is not a 'get out of jail free' card for him.  And it is not our responsibility to make him feel 'comfortable' with us.

The forgiveness he needs to realize is that Christ's blood on the cross was for his transgression as well.  But I disagree that anyone should count on HIM to disclose his offenses to 'unsuspecting/trusting congregations'.  As far as denominational employment goes, in MY opinion...IT'S OVER!  I know God can and will still use him for his(God's) own purposes, but I WILL NOT trust him with my own kids.  The 'get out of jail free' mentality with GODLY FORGIVENESS is NOT the same thing.  Again...forgiveness that comes from God does NOT enable more abuse...are you all getting that?!

As to becoming victors and overcomers, this is something that will come when those who have been hurt have begun to receive the love and understanding that Jesus is there for them.

 
I agree.  Some Christ-followers are in a better position to understand their 'identity in Christ alone' than others though.  There are many factors that play into one realizing what it means to be 'in Christ alone'.  I don't take those three words (in Christ alone) lightly!  Jesus is the Jubilee!  (This is a DEEP subject...which, again, is why I KNOW I have been misunderstood by some...).

My difficulty with this has always been the question of where He was when the abuse was happening?

A fair and common question...

Usually it's phrased, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

However, I have come to realize that 'no one is good but God'.  There are NO good people, except that they are IN CHRIST.  Only God is good (Jesus' words).

I am still dealing with this aspect of the problem to a certain extent but for you to upbraid me for not having reached your level of understanding would not be appropriate, just as it is not appropriate for others to do at the time of the distress and especially if the perpretator, when known, has not been dealt with appropriately.

 
I'm not 'upbraiding' you about ANYTHING...

Here's the thing...if the perpetrator get's off scott-free, does that mean that the 'victim' can NEVER let go, forgive (not to enable the perp again!!!), and move forward?  Just because the 'system' failed, or they were protected by a corrupt denomination/sect?

Jesus is ABOVE denominational-protections and man-made church.  Jesus is GOD...and faith in HIM alone is NOT faith in a denomination/leadership.  If they're protection criminals with a denominational system, then they should ALL go to jail!

But EVEN IF THEY NEVER DO!!!! the 'victim' can and SHOULD move to VICTOR in Christ!  I sincerely HOPE you can agree with that.

I thank Him that after 65 years I have finally understood that my abuse has made me more empathetic of others who have been hurt and I can often recognize that more readily than others do. But if I had been told that I must 'forgive as Christ has forgiven me' at the time it was happening I would have been more resentful and rebellious than I was.

 
In the context of the OP, I would agree.  Which is why I believe a COMPLETE paradigm shift MUST take place OUTSIDE of the 3000+ denominations that exist.  Jesus is NOT a denomination, nor is he their sinful anti-Christian protection of criminals...do you understand what I am saying?

God only was the One Who was able to reach me on that level and only after I had sought Him on my own.  I think this is what Bonnie and Ozzie and the others have been trying to get you to understand.

 
I understand exactly what they have been trying to say.  But they have not taken it to the very end of the healing that Jesus alone offers.  I DO NOT enable 'victims'.  Victim mentality is destructive and enslaving, but Jesus releases captives and complete healing is in Him alone.  Most 'Christians' do NOT really understand this and resort to human 'psychology', which ignores Christ-centered healing (Spiritual healing).  It's supernatural and ONLY comes from Jesus Christ.  Most are 'Home Depot' healers and want to 'Do It Yourself'.  I disagree (even as a licensed counselor!).

And that seeking did not come through the Adventist church I am sorry to say.  But that is a subject for another thread and time.

I won't even go there...

Jesus is the Master Healer!  If only people would trust in HIM!

In CHRIST alone...

[Johann]

Take the case of a grandmother in her fifties who was taught to "forgive".  So she forgave her husband for raping two minor girls - both close relatives. Yet other relatives helped him escape punishment, as so often happens in cases like this.

She forgave him for having a child with a neighborhood widow, and she even saw to it that this child received the support he avoided providing.

Finally her forgiving spirit came to a close when their daughters discovered their father had  now for years had a secret affair with yet another woman, even though he claimed those were false allegations. By finally divorcing him she found freedom and a greater meaning in life. She found that all of her children and grandchildren fully support her in not extending grace to this man who breaks all of his promises and whose repentances of the past have been worthless. Is she learning the meaning of forgiveness?

Was this an easy decision for her? Does she experience heartaches? Did she finally do the right thing?

Unfortunately this is not but a rare event a pastor can get involved in - in various countries and cultures. Is there evil in this world? Should  we encourage mere forgiveness or work against the perpetration of such evil within the realm of our churches?

[Ozzie]

I hope that THIS post clears up some misconceptions about what I've been saying all along. 

In CHRIST alone...

Freeindeed, thank you for clearing things up a bit by explaining what should be done with sexual predators.

There is a right time and a wrong time to give counsel on forgiveness, such as you have given. Victims first need a chance to be angry at their abuser before they can forgive. They need to be helped to recognize that it is not their fault. It is the abuser's fault. Suggesting "forgiveness" before they are allowed to come to this realization is highly inappropriate. (They have nothing to forgive, since everyone around them seems to suggest the abuser did nothing wrong. It is a fact that victims often feel it is "their fault." Abusers usually try to make them feel that way, and too often they succeed.)

And, of course, the victim's forgiveness does not absolve the abuser of his responsibility. His crime still needs to be dealt with. (And it seems you understand that.)

I suspect you mean well, but you don't appear to understand the issues clearly enough to be able to offer appropriate advice on such a volatile and sensitive topic. At times like that silence is golden.

Be blessed ...
[/quote]

Thank you Inga, for your input here. This is what I have been trying to say, but coudn't seem to get it into the right words.

It is a very emotive topic for me, as I've seen so many trying to pedal the forgiveness barrel, while excusing the perpetrator, that my words don't always come out as I'd hoped.

[Freeindeed]

Freeindeed, thank you for clearing things up a bit by explaining what should be done with sexual predators.

There is a right time and a wrong time to give counsel on forgiveness, such as you have given. Victims first need a chance to be angry at their abuser before they can forgive.

Anger against those who have wronged us is NORMAL!!!  I've said this before, but I'm saying it again!  It's part of the process of dealing with loss!

They need to be helped to recognize that it is not their fault. It is the abuser's fault. Suggesting "forgiveness" before they are allowed to come to this realization is highly inappropriate. (They have nothing to forgive, since everyone around them seems to suggest the abuser did nothing wrong. It is a fact that victims often feel it is "their fault." Abusers usually try to make them feel that way, and too often they succeed.)

Inga, this is where 'Psychology' can play a positive role...but the abuser cannot be the one administering the 'psychology', if you know what I'm saying...?

And, of course, the victim's forgiveness does not absolve the abuser of his responsibility. His crime still needs to be dealt with. (And it seems you understand that.)

Absolutely!  I've reported people before, and I'll do it again...EVERY TIME!

I suspect you mean well, but you don't appear to understand the issues clearly enough to be able to offer appropriate advice on such a volatile and sensitive topic. At times like that silence is golden.

Everyone has their own perceptions, which are EASILY mistaken when only typed words are the source...

Don't forget that this is a DOCTRINAL DISCUSSION board, and what I have presented is COMPLETELY acceptable for Christ-followers.  Silence can be 'golden' at times, but when the question is asked on a 'Christian' discussion board what a Christ-follower's response should be to 'those who have wronged them', then silence can be denial...especially to the AMPLE counsel given in Scripture...

...there is MUCH more to this topic than what has been scratched on the surface here...

May Jesus Christ ALONE be glorified in the way we communicate here...

In CHRIST alone...

[GrammieT]

Free, you are still running around the treadmill.     We are not dealing with the normal kind of transgression here.

What is a 'NORMAL kind of transgression'?  NO transgression against God is 'normal'.  That's the point!  That's why it's called 'SIN'!

Of course the sin is against God, nobody is saying that it isn't.  But you seemed to be overlooking the point that the sin was also done to an individual and that individual must be dealt with in a gentle fashion!  Especially at first, is our point.  There is definitely a time when your position can and should be brought into play.  Just not until the victim knows they have been heard.

And you can say all you want to that 'to forgive as Christ forgave us' is applicable.  It is only applicable after the predator has been dealt with regarding his behavior.

I would love to see Scripture that supports that theory... 

Okay, Free, I hear you.  You are right on this one. 

I will agree, however, that forgiveness is a necessary thing, but only in the context that the victim has been carefully and lovingly heard and reassured that they were in no way responsible for what happened to them or anyone else if they had been instructed to 'not tell' or otherwise threatened.  There is much more to this area but I will not go into that here.

There is much more to it.  The 'victim' is not responsible for what a perpetrator has done.  However they CANNOT continue to be a victim for the rest of their lives.

Again, 

In the example of the article in the OP, that man was just shuffled around the area and given free reign to raid other trusting congregations.  Thank God that he has finally been caught up with.  Does he need forgiveness?  Of course, but he must never have opportunity to do his hurtful acts again.  In his case, HE needs to take full responsibility for his behavior by always informing the officers of the churches he attends that he will not be available for office and he should never be allowed without a chaperone in the restrooms, or anywhere that others could be alone with him.  He should be willing to have the congregation know that he is not to be trusted, and that they should be extra cautious around him.   Otherwise he has not taken the responsibility that forgiveness gives him.  In other words, forgiveness is not a 'get out of jail free' card for him.  And it is not our responsibility to make him feel 'comfortable' with us.

The forgiveness he needs to realize is that Christ's blood on the cross was for his transgression as well.  But I disagree that anyone should count on HIM to disclose his offenses to 'unsuspecting/trusting congregations'.  As far as denominational employment goes, in MY opinion...IT'S OVER!  I know God can and will still use him for his(God's) own purposes, but I WILL NOT trust him with my own kids.  The 'get out of jail free' mentality with GODLY FORGIVENESS is NOT the same thing.  Again...forgiveness that comes from God does NOT enable more abuse...are you all getting that?!

Yes, Free, we get that, but I think Bonnie is dealing with the facts that the case presented in the OP and her case are very much alike; and what you have said above clears up much of our misconception of your original presentation. 

And Yes, I get that we should not count on HIM to disclose his offenses, but when there are those who know about them, at the very least they must disclose that knowledge and if HE does not agree to having it disclosed to at least the parents then he should not be allowed in the congregation.  He is really not willing to listen to sermons anyway if that is his attitude.

As to becoming victors and overcomers, this is something that will come when those who have been hurt have begun to receive the love and understanding that Jesus is there for them.

 
 
I agree.  Some Christ-followers are in a better position to understand their 'identity in Christ alone' than others though.  There are many factors that play into one realizing what it means to be 'in Christ alone'.  I don't take those three words (in Christ alone) lightly!  Jesus is the Jubilee!  (This is a DEEP subject...which, again, is why I KNOW I have been misunderstood by some...).

And I will concede to you as you have helped me understand where you are coming from here as well.

My difficulty with this has always been the question of where He was when the abuse was happening?

A fair and common question...

Usually it's phrased, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

Thank you.  My abuse started when I was an infant and while my parents tried to deal with it as they saw it, my abuser was very crafty, as they always are, and it continued as long as he was at home.  And he still refuses to acknowlege that his behavior was hurtful in any way.  


However, I have come to realize that 'no one is good but God'.  There are NO good people, except that they are IN CHRIST.  Only God is good (Jesus' words).

How right you are!

I am still dealing with this aspect of the problem to a certain extent but for you to upbraid me for not having reached your level of understanding would not be appropriate, just as it is not appropriate for others to do at the time of the distress and especially if the perpretator, when known, has not been dealt with appropriately.

 

I'm not 'upbraiding' you about ANYTHING...

I didn't say that you were, only that it would be inappropriate if you did . . .   

Here's the thing...if the perpetrator get's off scott-free, does that mean that the 'victim' can NEVER let go, forgive (not to enable the perp again!!!), and move forward?  Just because the 'system' failed, or they were protected by a corrupt denomination/sect?

Of course not!  That has never been the point of discussion.  It's the timing . . .

Jesus is ABOVE denominational-protections and man-made church.  Jesus is GOD...and faith in HIM alone is NOT faith in a denomination/leadership.  If they're protection criminals with a denominational system, then they should ALL go to jail!

You did recognize that the OP was regarding a choir director in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, didn't you?  And that is the point of the other thread.  WE are responsible for what happens in THIS church and must work toward helping our leaders from the GC down to the 'church on the corner' see that our necessary response is to report the abuse and cooperate with the legal authorities while at the same time addressing the necessity of spiritual restoration of both the victim and the perpetrator AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME.  I fully recognize that you and I may need to agree to disagree on just when that appropriate time is.

But EVEN IF THEY NEVER DO!!!! the 'victim' can and SHOULD move to VICTOR in Christ!  I sincerely HOPE you can agree with that.

Yes - 

I thank Him that after 65 years I have finally understood that my abuse has made me more empathetic of others who have been hurt and I can often recognize that more readily than others do. But if I had been told that I must 'forgive as Christ has forgiven me' at the time it was happening I would have been more resentful and rebellious than I was.

 

In the context of the OP, I would agree.  Which is why I believe a COMPLETE paradigm shift MUST take place OUTSIDE of the 3000+ denominations that exist.  Jesus is NOT a denomination, nor is he their sinful anti-Christian protection of criminals...do you understand what I am saying?

I think I do and that is why I said what I did in my last comment.

God only was the One Who was able to reach me on that level and only after I had sought Him on my own.  I think this is what Bonnie and Ozzie and the others have been trying to get you to understand.

 


I understand exactly what they have been trying to say.  But they have not taken it to the very end of the healing that Jesus alone offers.  I DO NOT enable 'victims'.  Victim mentality is destructive and enslaving, but Jesus releases captives and complete healing is in Him alone.  Most 'Christians' do NOT really understand this and resort to human 'psychology', which ignores Christ-centered healing (Spiritual healing).  It's supernatural and ONLY comes from Jesus Christ.  Most are 'Home Depot' healers and want to 'Do It Yourself'.  I disagree (even as a licensed counselor!).

Your commentary has conveyed neither an understanding of our point of discussion, nor of your very valid point of discussion until this thread tonight, I am sorry to say.  But this thread will go a long way to helping us all understand what is both necessary and much needed in accomplishing that 'paradigm shift' you so eloquently described above.

And that seeking did not come through the Adventist church I am sorry to say.  But that is a subject for another thread and time.

I won't even go there...

Jesus is the Master Healer!  If only people would trust in HIM!

In CHRIST alone...
/quote]  

GrammieT   

Sorry Folks, but I don't know how to separate out the previous comments from what I want to say.  Hope you get what I wanted to add.

[bonnie]

What is a 'NORMAL kind of transgression'?  NO transgression against God is 'normal'.  That's the point!  That's why it's called 'SIN'!

While there may be no sin that is "normal" I do not think all sins are equal. When this is a response to someone that has been badly hurt,the results are the opposite of what most hope for


grammieT

I will agree, however, that forgiveness is a necessary thing, but only in the context that the victim has been carefully and lovingly heard and reassured that they were in no way responsible for what happened to them or anyone else if they had been instructed to 'not tell' or otherwise threatened.  There is much more to this area but I will not go into that here.

You are so right in this. Most survivors of abuse are already struggling with guilt and shame. Heaping the old "all have sinned' on them is cruel and not in the least productive.

There is a time for that. Even in cases where it has not been sexual abuse,maybe even something that another would believe to be harmless. the piling on of "forgive 7x70" or "all have sinned" can have some pretty serious consequences

There is much more to it.  The 'victim' is not responsible for what a perpetrator has done.  However they CANNOT continue to be a victim for the rest of their lives.

Most do not remain victims and MOST do not wish to. Survivors of any kind of serious abuse are some of the strongest and most forgiving  people I know. In the five years Survivors-N-Trivers was active I met the most amazing women I have ever met.
Not one in all those years had a postivie story concerning aid and support from their denomination. Most, not all were SDA's. Each one did it in spite of "all have sinned"  "we are all guilty"mentality.Not because of it
What each wanted more than anything is to educate others in the dealing with the "victim" so they did not remain a victim forever.

GrammieT]In the example of the article in the OP, that man was just shuffled around the area and given free reign to raid other trusting congregations.  Thank God that he has finally been caught up with.  Does he need forgiveness?  Of course, but he must never have opportunity to do his hurtful acts again.  In his case, HE needs to take full responsibility for his behavior by always informing the officers of the churches he attends that he will not be available for office and he should never be allowed without a chaperone in the restrooms, or anywhere that others could be alone with him.  He should be willing to have the congregation know that he is not to be trusted, and that they should be extra cautious around him.   Otherwise he has not taken the responsibility that forgiveness gives him.  In other words, forgiveness is not a 'get out of jail free' card for him.  And it is not our responsibility to make him feel 'comfortable' with us.

The forgiveness he needs to realize is that Christ's blood on the cross was for his transgression as well.  But I disagree that anyone should count on HIM to disclose his offenses to 'unsuspecting/trusting congregations'.  As far as denominational employment goes, in MY opinion...IT'S OVER!  I know God can and will still use him for his(God's) own purposes, but I WILL NOT trust him with my own kids.  The 'get out of jail free' mentality with GODLY FORGIVENESS is NOT the same thing.  Again...forgiveness that comes from God does NOT enable more abuse...are you all getting that?!

Grammie T
Now are you getting this  Forgiveness that does come from God does not enable abuse. Forgiveness so often preached by others, claiming it comes from God fosters all type of abuse

As to becoming victors and overcomers, this is something that will come when those who have been hurt have begun to receive the love and understanding that Jesus is there for them.

 

I agree.  Some Christ-followers are in a better position to understand their 'identity in Christ alone' than others though.  There are many factors that play into one realizing what it means to be 'in Christ alone'.  I don't take those three words (in Christ alone) lightly!  Jesus is the Jubilee!  (This is a DEEP subject...which, again, is why I KNOW I have been misunderstood by some...).

You may believe you have been misunderstood, time will tell. When the first words I hear or see on the topic of forgiveness,no matter what the harm,is forgiveness by the injured party,I have my doubts  It never comes with, before or after any counsel for those hearing or reading about what the guilty need to hear and do. NOT A PEEP.

In the end it matters not to the victim whether their abuser confesses and seek repentnece. For their own emotional well being and their eternal life they need to . However, we can make it a whole lot harder for them.




...

Usually it's phrased, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

However, I have come to realize that 'no one is good but God'.  There are NO good people, except that they are IN CHRIST.  Only God is good (Jesus' words).

This is another one that gets thrown into the mix. Use this to speak to someone badly hurt and you cannot even gaige the damage that is done.  But of course it is biblical so how can it cause problems. I don't think it is meant to be used the way it so often is.
Tell the child that has been abused,Or others that have been abused
  "There are no good people" except they be in Christ. Only God is good"
What they will hear and understand is a whole lot different

GrammieT I am still dealing with this aspect of the problem to a certain extent but for you to upbraid me for not having reached your level of understanding would not be appropriate, just as it is not appropriate for others to do at the time of the distress and especially if the perpretator, when known, has not been dealt with appropriately.

 

I'm not 'upbraiding' you about ANYTHING...

It seems a lot like you are.

Here's the thing...if the perpetrator get's off scott-free, does that mean that the 'victim' can NEVER let go, forgive (not to enable the perp again!!!), and move forward?  Just because the 'system' failed, or they were protected by a corrupt denomination/sect?

No, and most do. If you have spent as much time dealing with this you will realize most do let go, and  because of the misguided, or deliberately cruel advice and preaching, They go on to become advocates

Jesus is ABOVE denominational-protections and man-made church.  Jesus is GOD...and faith in HIM alone is NOT faith in a denomination/leadership.  If they're protection criminals with a denominational system, then they should ALL go to jail!

But EVEN IF THEY NEVER DO!!!! the 'victim' can and SHOULD move to VICTOR in Christ!  I sincerely HOPE you can agree with that.

My dad used to call people like this coatholders. Never would dream of committing these acts, but would stand by and hold the coat of the abuser. A predator of this type can usually only exist among us because someone is holding the coat. Our denomination is no exception

The forgiveness by a victim of abuse should never be on the condition of confession and repentence of the guilty.. But forgiveness cab be hard to find, not for the prepatrator, but those that hold the coats, because of those  that preach endlessly about forgivenss of the other guy.

GrammieTGod only was the One Who was able to reach me on that level and only after I had sought Him on my own.  I think this is what Bonnie and Ozzie and the others have been trying to get you to understand.

 
I understand exactly what they have been trying to say.  But they have not taken it to the very end of the healing that Jesus alone offers.  I DO NOT enable 'victims'.  Victim mentality is destructive and enslaving, but Jesus releases captives and complete healing is in Him alone.  Most 'Christians' do NOT really understand this and resort to human 'psychology', which ignores Christ-centered healing (Spiritual healing).  It's supernatural and ONLY comes from Jesus Christ.  Most are 'Home Depot' healers and want to 'Do It Yourself'.  I disagree (even as a licensed counselor!).[/quote]


And what you do not understand is you still are playing leap frog and getting /winning to the end of the line.
You are very demeaning to many that have been victims by saying that many christians do not understand this. I am assuming that you claim to have this knowledge that so many do not possess.
Maybe in your eyes many do not understand,Or maybe, just maybe it is because you are leaving somethings out and in a hurry to get to the end of the line.
What does happen at times, is people using all the standard responses make it harder for those that need to get there.
I had a whole lot easier time forgiving the predator pastor that wrecked havoc in our lives, than I did or have concerning many that spouted ad-nausem the same that I have heard again

GrammieTAnd that seeking did not come through the Adventist church I am sorry to say.  But that is a subject for another thread and time.

I won't even go there...

Jesus is the Master Healer!  If only people would trust in HIM!

In CHRIST alone...

No, sad to say our church has little to nothing to offer. Except forgivness by the injured and it will all go away.

"If only people would trust him" is another great concept. Again, it comes across as very demeaing to those struggling.
That is the bottom line but first we need to stop putting as many obstacles in the way as possible.

If as much concern was placed on the guilty party, if so many were as concerned about their salvation, it should at least get honorable mention AND IT DOES NOT. Not in place of, or even first, I would settle for last even, but it never comes. If I were a pedophile,I think the best place to committ my acts would be a church that concentrated first and last on the forgiveness by the victim. If I were a pedophile, sincerely repentent I would be discouraged. Never seeing a concern,or interest in my eternal salvation.

And that is what is done with forgiveness. Go back and read. How earnestly we work to get the victim to forgive and yet ignore the guilty party. Not as in sticking it to, or punishing, but in the "concern" you show the injured party

[bonnie]

.

Anger against those who have wronged us is NORMAL!!!  I've said this before, but I'm saying it again!  It's part of the process of dealing with loss!

Yes, it is,but most translate anger to unforgiveness. For victims of serious abuse issues generally the anger directed at one person initially has lot's of company. Anger at those that refuse to listen and love to preach a forgiveness they themselves do not possess

Inga, this is where 'Psychology' can play a positive role...but the abuser cannot be the one administering the 'psychology', if you know what I'm saying...?

   Of course not. The guilty party stepping forward is something we rarely see. Simple compassion and understanind can play as great a role or more so in the injured parties recovery. That is also in short supply.

Absolutely!  I've reported people before, and I'll do it again...EVERY TIME!

It needs to go further than that. Almost always there are those that knew. Rarely is an offender caught the first time, and even more rare faces the consequence. Dealing with one guilty is only one, not insignificent,but it has to go to the core that allows when much could be stopped

Don't forget that this is a DOCTRINAL DISCUSSION board, and what I have presented is COMPLETELY acceptable for Christ-followers.  Silence can be 'golden' at times, but when the question is asked on a 'Christian' discussion board what a Christ-follower's response should be to 'those who have wronged them', then silence can be denial...especially to the AMPLE counsel given in Scripture...

...there is MUCH more to this topic than what has been scratched on the surface here..

There is, but I am still waiting to here what is acceptable for Christ's followers on the topic of the guilty.Where there is someone that has been victimized there is a prepatrator. Do we care about him? Do we care to see his repentence, thereby removing one more that could harm dozens? Or is it only the salvation of the victims we are concerned about.
Or is it just easier that way to appear righteous in the eyes of others.

[bonnie]

There is a right time and a wrong time to give counsel on forgiveness, such as you have given. Victims first need a chance to be angry at their abuser before they can forgive. They need to be helped to recognize that it is not their fault. It is the abuser's fault. Suggesting "forgiveness" before they are allowed to come to this realization is highly inappropriate. (They have nothing to forgive, since everyone around them seems to suggest the abuser did nothing wrong. It is a fact that victims often feel it is "their fault." Abusers usually try to make them feel that way, and too often they succeed.)

To often we rush to administer the cure before we know what the illness/complaint it. The cure can have deadly results when administered for the wrong illness. No matter the sucess of the wonder drug, used improperly it can cause death.
Altho to a degree the internet can be hard to always grasp what another means, when the same song,different verse is always used, it is hard not to come away with a firm idea of what the other person means.

I suspect you mean well, but you don't appear to understand the issues clearly enough to be able to offer appropriate advice on such a volatile and sensitive topic. At times like that silence is golden. [/color]

When preaching doesn't help and actually harms, silence is indeed golden

It is a very emotive topic for me, as I've seen so many trying to pedal the forgiveness barrel, while excusing the perpetrator, that my words don't always come out as I'd hoped.[/b]

Maybe because we have all seen so much of  "misplaced forgiveness" Very little progress is made yet forgiveness is the topic . Generally meant,"I will forgive you for being a victim, if you will forgive the perpetrator"
We would have far less victims, recovery much faster, if the misplaced forgiveness and it always taking center stage in any conversation dealing with abuse were stopped.

[Freeindeed]

Yes, it is,but most translate anger to unforgiveness. For victims of serious abuse issues generally the anger directed at one person initially has lot's of company. Anger at those that refuse to listen and love to preach a forgiveness they themselves do not possess

I have not equated anger to unforgiveness.  Why do you keep making a point that we already agree on?

Of course not. The guilty party stepping forward is something we rarely see.

Exactly.

Simple compassion and understanind can play as great a role or more so in the injured parties recovery. That is also in short supply.

Compassion and understanding are not in short supply.  Maybe they are in your church, but there are many healthy churches and Christian groups where compassion and understanding are the norm in dealing with all people.

It needs to go further than that. Almost always there are those that knew. Rarely is an offender caught the first time, and even more rare faces the consequence. Dealing with one guilty is only one, not insignificent,but it has to go to the core that allows when much could be stopped

It would be ideal if that could happen.  Usually the 'others' who knew aren't identified until AFTER the abuse is out in the open.

There is, but I am still waiting to here what is acceptable for Christ's followers on the topic of the guilty. Where there is someone that has been victimized there is a prepatrator. Do we care about him? Do we care to see his repentence, thereby removing one more that could harm dozens? Or is it only the salvation of the victims we are concerned about.

Where do you get this from? 

Or is it just easier that way to appear righteous in the eyes of others.

There is no righteousness apart from Christ.  Appearances are often deceiving.

In CHRIST alone...

[bonnie]

I have not equated anger to unforgiveness.  Why do you keep making a point that we already agree on?

This is very typical. It was said as more of a general statement. If you are not in that camp,then it does not pertain to you

Compassion and understanding are not in short supply.  Maybe they are in your church, but there are many healthy churches and Christian groups where compassion and understanding are the norm in dealing with all people.

This is something that makes me doubtful as to the numbers of victims you are well acquainted with or have been in a position to counsel.

My home church was never in short supply of what was needed.
Generally speaking those that have been victimized find it is very short supply. I have yet to meet the first one that had a positive experience.

It would be ideal if that could happen.  Usually the 'others' who knew aren't identified until AFTER the abuse is out in the open.

So what does that have to do with holding them accountable. The perpetrator is  not known till it is out in the open either.

There is, but I am still waiting to here what is acceptable for Christ's followers on the topic of the guilty. Where there is someone that has been victimized there is a prepatrator. Do we care about him? Do we care to see his repentence, thereby removing one more that could harm dozens? Or is it only the salvation of the victims we are concerned about.

Where do you get this from?

From you as well as others. Can you go back and find where in this where we give this any importance?  It is not a seperate issue. And dealing with the end result we all hope for first and only places a tremendous burden on someone already burdened.

Or is it just easier that way to appear righteous in the eyes of others.

There is no righteousness apart from Christ.  Appearances are often deceiving.

In CHRIST alone...
[/quote]


I am quite sure you knew what I meant by "righteous" I do understand ......There is no righteousness apart from Christ

[Chrissie]

Simple compassion and understanind can play as great a role or more so in the injured parties recovery. That is also in short supply.

Compassion and understanding are not in short supply.  Maybe they are in your church, but there are many healthy churches and Christian groups where compassion and understanding are the norm in dealing with all people.

Well, you must live quite a secluded life if you think that compassion and understanding are not in short supply.  Our family has moved to many many areas, but the denial of abuse is alive and well in all those areas we've been in. I don't know whether to feel pity for those who REFUSE to see the problem, or to be hopping mad at their arrogance and ignorance.

It needs to go further than that. Almost always there are those that knew. Rarely is an offender caught the first time, and even more rare faces the consequence. Dealing with one guilty is only one, not insignificent,but it has to go to the core that allows when much could be stopped

It would be ideal if that could happen.  Usually the 'others' who knew aren't identified until AFTER the abuse is out in the open.

I can understand the frustration of some of the posters here as they try to get their view point across. Seems to me that so many just can't really get past the usual 'forgive and all will be well' mentality. I can understand people feeling like they're bashing their heads against a brick wall. So many just don't want to understand IMHO. 

I can't even see how people can be educated in this regard, as there seems to be some curtain that comes down and blocks their view from the realities of life. It is that by acknowledging this evil, it might expose so-called friends and make things look bad for the Church?  So sad! 

[Freeindeed]

Compassion and understanding are not in short supply.  Maybe they are in your church, but there are many healthy churches and Christian groups where compassion and understanding are the norm in dealing with all people.

Well, you must live quite a secluded life if you think that compassion and understanding are not in short supply.  Our family has moved to many many areas, but the denial of abuse is alive and well in all those areas we've been in. I don't know whether to feel pity for those who REFUSE to see the problem, or to be hopping mad at their arrogance and ignorance.

I have never had a problem finding good referrals to Christian counselors, whether it was their own practice or through Christian organizations.  Most have been excellent (but there have be a couple of exceptions!).

I feel pity for those who REFUSE to see the problem too!  If the SDA church is harboring abusers, then something should really be done about it, either from within or from without.  Why is it allowed to go on?  If you and others are aware of abuse that is currently taking place then you must take it to the authorities in your area.

I don't work in the SDA church, nor do I have any real direct contact with them (aside from many SDA family members), so I cannot speak to how much compassion and understanding there is for those who have suffered abuse.  But I do know many places where compassion and understanding are the norm.  There are MANY Christians who actually care and have been trained professionally to know how to deal with abuse, significant loss, addictions, etc.  Compassion and understanding are NOT in short supply.  Maybe those who can't find it aren't looking in the right place.  I feel pity if they cannot find it in the SDA church, or at least in the areas you have been.  That's pretty sad.

It would be ideal if that could happen.  Usually the 'others' who knew aren't identified until AFTER the abuse is out in the open.

I can understand the frustration of some of the posters here as they try to get their view point across. Seems to me that so many just can't really get past the usual 'forgive and all will be well' mentality. I can understand people feeling like they're bashing their heads against a brick wall. So many just don't want to understand IMHO. 

"Forgive and all will be well mentality"?  That is not what I have presented, yet you and others still only hear what you're wanting to hear.  I'll talk about being 'frustrated of some of the posters here' as they have continually misrepresented my point.  With the exception of GrammieT (thank you GrammieT), most of the rest of you seem to have an agenda of your own that doesn't include any attempt to understand any other point of view than the one you've already established (which doesn't include ANY Scriptural counsel!).  It doesn't matter what Scripture says, what Christ has said, or what ANY Christian professional counselor says...if it doesn't fit into your agenda then you go on the attack.

Which is fine here on a simple discussion board...but I'd hate to see you deal with people in a clinical setting...

I can't even see how people can be educated in this regard, as there seems to be some curtain that comes down and blocks their view from the realities of life. It is that by acknowledging this evil, it might expose so-called friends and make things look bad for the Church?  So sad! 

Again, if your church is harboring abusers by shifting them to different places (pastors, teachers, conference officials, etc.), then it's MORE THAN SAD!!!  I couldn't care LESS about ANY denomination doing this and would be in FULL support of a COMPLETE exposure of those CRIMES, regardless of how high up it went!  In fact, put EVERYONE who has knowledge of it and does NOTHING in jail as well!  You guys are sounding a lot like the Catholic priest abusers!  Weed them all out...every last one of them who's abusing their position in a man-made organization to spiritually/sexually/physically/emotionally/or any other kind of 'ally' abuse those within their control or influence.  SPEAK UP!  Don't waste your time here on a board talking about what it means for a Christian to forgive!  Call the authorities.  Don't let it go another day!  You have a responsibility to blow the whistle on the realities you speak of and know about.  Get them out of the situation!  And certainly DON'T go back to that church!!!

I'll be praying for you and those situations.  If you know of any of them here in Colorado PM me.  I know many people and friends in law enforcement, and at the very least it's a place to start.

In Christ alone...