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[inga]

See:

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/whereilive/enfield/display.var.2330600.0.church_leader_jailed_for_sexual_assaults_on_girls.php

A CHURCH youth leader who brutally raped a terrified 16-year-old choir girl and indecently assaulted at least five others - one just eight-years-old - has been caged for 11 years.

Yet although his behaviour was made aware to the church, they forgave' him and told him to get counselling after an initial complaint, and then expelled him from the church after a second complaint, never reporting the matter to police, Wood Green Crown Court was told.

The church had absolutely no right to "forgive" this man! Nor does the church have any right to forgive anyone of sexual abuse/molestation, etc. The appropriate behavior is to counsel the man to ensure that he realizes the seriousness of  his crime and then report him to the police. He can be visited in prison and assured there is forgiveness if there is genuine repentance.

It is inexcusable not to report such behavior in a mistaken fit of "forgiveness" and "kindness."

I think that's what Bonnie has been trying to say for some time, and she should be heard.

Inga

[Johann]

Should the church re-install that  man 11 years later after he has received due punishment for his offense?

[Ozzie]

Should the church re-install that  man 11 years later after he has received due punishment for his offense?

Definitely NOT Johann.

For every known victim, there are probably another 7 or 8 unknown (undisclosed) victims.

Part of the perpetrater's rehabilitation should include leading him/her (Yes. Some women sexually abuse too) to acknowledge that they cannot trust themselves to be around children; and especially unsupervised around children.

A repentant perpetrater will acknowledge this to the appropriate authorities (church or whatever), and will undertake NEVER to be around young people, or left in positions of trust.

The person may come to Church (and may be encouraged to), but they can NEVER be left in a situation where they may relapse again and further victims could be the result.

[Johann]

I just asked that question because I understand that such a request has actually taken place.

[Ozzie]

I just asked that question because I understand that such a request has actually taken place.

What is going on in that area?

Is there more than one abuser/perpetrater in that Church?

No. This is going just too far. This is one that I'd take right up to GC level and expose the perpetrater to the media if necessary, if that would get to the bottom of what is really going on in that particular church (and maybe in that area, if others are supporting this atrocious behaviour).

This perpetrater has obviously not repented of his behaviour as he is not demonstrating accountability for his ghastly deeds, if he wants to be reinstated.

Sounds like it's time to get a 'time bomb' in there, along with tons of education, so vulnerable people know when they are being used to satisfy some perverts' lusts, and so they know where they can go to get help to STOP this from happening, at the hands of this person and his associates.

What other types of abuse are going on in this Church? If this 'forgiveness bit' is being preached, there are more of the same in there protecting that pervert.

Where's the 'soapbox' smiley when I need it?

[bonnie]

- He can be visited in prison and assured there is forgiveness if there is genuine repentance.

It is inexcusable not to report such behavior in a mistaken fit of "forgiveness" and "kindness."

I think that's what Bonnie has been trying to say for some time, and she should be heard.

Inga

Thanks Inga, I have been saying this over and over for the past almost seven years now.

I have taken the quote below from another topic here. This statement is by FreeInDeed. He is by no means the only one that says things like this.

Can you imagine someone that is trying to deal with what has happened to them being told......
Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross. 


No matter how severe the abuse it is ,this is what is repeated over and over. Biblical,RIGHT? Can't argue with that.

The victim has just been reduced to the level of the party that abused them.

You will notice that repentance,confession and asking forgiveness never quite reaches the perpetrator. It stops cold at the victim.
It is not a single issue of forgiveness on the part of the victims of abuse. This however is what it is made out to be.
From personal experience,I can tell you that the "christian" counsel given in the manner it is, can be as deadly as the initial act of abuse.
Many times it is harder to "forgive" those that do this than the guilty party. I was told this in the beginning and many times since

Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross. 

Have they any idea what this tells those struggling with this issue? The victims have been reduced to the level and are as guilty as the party that harmed them. Try to make sense of that on top of the damage already done.
All have sinned, but IMO all sin is not equal. If so, then all would receive identical punishment.


When my granddaughters were so upset and confused......Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'  This was the answer. What does anyone think that did??

There is a place and a time for this, but that is not for others to determine.
True repentance shows by the actions of the guilty.   And true repentance and confession is not the bandied for the consequences of that behaviour

[Johann]

I can assure you that the pastor who requested to get his job back after serving his time in prison for what he did to a young girl, did not get his job back.

I can assure you though, that the longer one serves as a pastor, or as a retired pastor, the more cases of abuse one encounters within, or in connection with our local churches. It is abut time our Lord intervenes with his coming, but until them we cannot permit such blemishes to destroy our churches, and not even Independent Ministries which claim to have a purer message than the church itself.

May the Lord have mercy!

Thank you for bringing up this important topic here on Advent Talk.

[bonnie]

I can assure you that the pastor who requested to get his job back after serving his time in prison for what he did to a young girl, did not get his job back.

I can assure you though, that the longer one serves as a pastor, or as a retired pastor, the more cases of abuse one encounters within, or in connection with our local churches. It is abut time our Lord intervenes with his coming, but until them we cannot permit such blemishes to destroy our churches, and not even Independent Ministries which claim to have a purer message than the church itself.

May the Lord have mercy!

Thank you for bringing up this important topic here on Advent Talk.

It would be wonderful if all felt that way. I don't know about rehire after a prison sentence,but they do get rehired/transferred with the knowledge of allegations

In out situation there was strong reason to believe the "pastor" in question was going to answer a call to MT,after his actions came to light.
I spoke to our conference president and asked if they were in contact with other conferences when a pastor had been stripped of his credentials in one state. The answer was NO, altho they would certainly suggest he not be rehired if they were contacted. Ripe for another one to slip thru the cracks.

A short few years ago a academy teacher that had been sued by a student for this type of conduct, settled out of court to a hefty sum and went on to teach academy students again, with full knowledge by the incoming conference.

[Freeindeed]

This is a VERY different topic than discussing what a Christian's response is to someone who has hurt them in some way.

And Bonnie, you're using my words out of context and adding your own meaning and interpretation to them.  I did not say what you've stated in the context you've stated it.

In CHRIST alone...

[bonnie]

This is a VERY different topic than discussing what a Christian's response is to someone who has hurt them in some way.

And Bonnie, you're using my words out of context and adding your own meaning and interpretation to them.  I did not say what you've stated in the context you've stated it.

In CHRIST alone...

No, I don't believe I toook your statement out of context....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: bonnie on June 12, 2008, 07:30:40 AM
Quote from: Freeindeed on June 11, 2008, 10:29:29 PM
They were pierced for our iniquity and transgression.  Jesus literally became sin for us so that he could make us righteous before God.  Hands get no dirtier than that.

In Christ alone...


This means what in terms of what we are to do concerning forgiveness by those that are guilty of harming others,or the path the injured party must take??  Not only for their own emotional well being,but both for their own salvation

Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross.

[/u]


To a direct question on what we are to do concerning forgiving those that cause harm to ourself or others you said.....
We are the one's guilty of harming others.
 

How much clearer could you make it.

Please explain if you can.

[GrammieT]

This is a VERY different topic than discussing what a Christian's response is to someone who has hurt them in some way.

And Bonnie, you're using my words out of context and adding your own meaning and interpretation to them.  I did not say what you've stated in the context you've stated it.

In CHRIST alone...

Just exactly how is this topic different than what Bonnie has been saying.  The article is precisely what she has been talking about.  Can you not see that???

It is possible that you have not had any experience with the type of abuse that is being shown here, Freeindeed, and therefore you have a very idealistic way of looking at it.  Just what would you propose to do in the case brought up in the OP?

As far as I am concerned, until you can show that you truly understand what the REAL DEAL is here, there is nothing you can say that in any way will give either the pain of the victim or even the serial predator a workable solution to either of their problems.  Especially if your solution results in the continuation of the actions as has been shown in the article presented AND IT USUALLY DOES!      This man has NO CONSCIENCE!!  Would you allow him to continue working with YOUR CHURCH FAMILY???!!!  Would you see that his contact with vulnerable people is brought to an ABRUPT END in incarceration as it should be.   Or would you slap him on the wrist, send him on his way as far too many of our conference officers do and just GET HIM OUT OF YOUR HAIR?!?!?!

GrammieT   

[Freeindeed]

This is a VERY different topic than discussing what a Christian's response is to someone who has hurt them in some way.

And Bonnie, you're using my words out of context and adding your own meaning and interpretation to them.  I did not say what you've stated in the context you've stated it.

In CHRIST alone...

No, I don't believe I toook your statement out of context....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: bonnie on June 12, 2008, 07:30:40 AM
Quote from: Freeindeed on June 11, 2008, 10:29:29 PM
They were pierced for our iniquity and transgression.  Jesus literally became sin for us so that he could make us righteous before God.  Hands get no dirtier than that.

In Christ alone...


This means what in terms of what we are to do concerning forgiveness by those that are guilty of harming others,or the path the injured party must take??  Not only for their own emotional well being,but both for their own salvation

Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross.

[/u]


To a direct question on what we are to do concerning forgiving those that cause harm to ourself or others you said.....
We are the one's guilty of harming others.
 

How much clearer could you make it.

Please explain if you can.

And it was put in quotes and the qualified with the statement that it was OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross.  That is ME taking responsibility for the fact that it is ME that 'caused harm to others', the 'others' being Jesus himself.

Many of the statements are so focussed on being 'victims'!  I hear NOTHING from any of you about 'victims' becoming VICTORS and OVERCOMERS by realizing their identity in Jesus Christ ALONE.  Where is your hope?  In Psychological theories established by men (mostly) who learned to take God out of the equation early on?  I don't trust them!  My hope is in Christ alone who forgave me...

In Christ alone...

[Freeindeed]

Just exactly how is this topic different than what Bonnie has been saying.  The article is precisely what she has been talking about.  Can you not see that???

This article is NOT what I've been talking about though, and she's used my words to say otherwise.

It is possible that you have not had any experience with the type of abuse that is being shown here, Freeindeed,

Actually, it isn't possible.

and therefore you have a very idealistic way of looking at it.

 
And this is exactly why this has become a VERY different topic.  It's not 'idealistic' to recognize that Jesus has called his followers to forgive their enemies (THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHURCH/DENOMINATIONS/RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY/ETC. OR THE LIKES OF THE ATTROCITIES LIKE THOSE MENTIONED IN THE OP!) 

Just what would you propose to do in the case brought up in the OP?

He should be tried in the courts and go to jail for his crimes.

The denomination he worked for should NEVER hire him to a position of influence again.

There is NO CHURCH that has ANY authority to hand out forgiveness in the way described in the OP.  It's NOT Scriptural and I vehemently disagree with the action (rather LACK of action) taken.  NOBODY should be able to hide criminal activity of ANY sort behind the veil of a church/denomination.  It is hypocircy in the highest degree and is as anti-Christian as can be as it is a false testimony of Jesus Christ. 

As far as I am concerned, until you can show that you truly understand what the REAL DEAL is here, there is nothing you can say that in any way will give either the pain of the victim or even the serial predator a workable solution to either of their problems.  Especially if your solution results in the continuation of the actions as has been shown in the article presented AND IT USUALLY DOES!      This man has NO CONSCIENCE!!  Would you allow him to continue working with YOUR CHURCH FAMILY???!!!  Would you see that his contact with vulnerable people is brought to an ABRUPT END in incarceration as it should be.   Or would you slap him on the wrist, send him on his way as far too many of our conference officers do and just GET HIM OUT OF YOUR HAIR?!?!?!

I think I've answered this adequately above.  This is why I KNOW that bonnie and others have COMPLETELY misunderstood the point I've been trying to make as far as what a Christ-follower's response is to those who have wronged them in some way.  Forgiveness that comes from God (the ability HE gives us to forgive) DOES NOT enable predators and perpetrators to harm us again!  In fact, quite the opposite.  Being IN CHIRST makes us VICTORS, not victims.  I'm not sure where the rub is.  People don't forgive because someone tells them they should, rather I believe it is the supernatural work of God himself living in them.

I hope that THIS post clears up some misconceptions about what I've been saying all along. 

In CHRIST alone...

[GrammieT]

This is a VERY different topic than discussing what a Christian's response is to someone who has hurt them in some way.

And Bonnie, you're using my words out of context and adding your own meaning and interpretation to them.  I did not say what you've stated in the context you've stated it.

In CHRIST alone...

No, I don't believe I toook your statement out of context....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: bonnie on June 12, 2008, 07:30:40 AM
Quote from: Freeindeed on June 11, 2008, 10:29:29 PM
They were pierced for our iniquity and transgression.  Jesus literally became sin for us so that he could make us righteous before God.  Hands get no dirtier than that.

In Christ alone...


This means what in terms of what we are to do concerning forgiveness by those that are guilty of harming others,or the path the injured party must take??  Not only for their own emotional well being,but both for their own salvation

Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross.

[/u]


To a direct question on what we are to do concerning forgiving those that cause harm to ourself or others you said.....
We are the one's guilty of harming others.
 

How much clearer could you make it.

Please explain if you can.

And it was put in quotes and the qualified with the statement that it was OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross.  That is ME taking responsibility for the fact that it is ME that 'caused harm to others', the 'others' being Jesus himself.

Many of the statements are so focussed on being 'victims'!  I hear NOTHING from any of you about 'victims' becoming VICTORS and OVERCOMERS by realizing their identity in Jesus Christ ALONE.  Where is your hope?  In Psychological theories established by men (mostly) who learned to take God out of the equation early on?  I don't trust them!  My hope is in Christ alone who forgave me...

In Christ alone...

Free, you are still running around the treadmill.     We are not dealing with the normal kind of transgression here. And you can say all you want to that 'to forgive as Christ forgave us' is applicable.  It is only applicable after the predator has been dealt with regarding his behavior. 

I will agree, however, that forgiveness is a necessary thing, but only in the context that the victim has been carefully and lovingly heard and reassured that they were in no way responsible for what happened to them or anyone else if they had been instructed to 'not tell' or otherwise threatened.  There is much more to this area but I will not go into that here.

In the example of the article in the OP, that man was just shuffled around the area and given free reign to raid other trusting congregations.  Thank God that he has finally been caught up with.  Does he need forgiveness?  Of course, but he must never have opportunity to do his hurtful acts again.  In his case, HE needs to take full responsibility for his behavior by always informing the officers of the churches he attends that he will not be available for office and he should never be allowed without a chaperone in the restrooms, or anywhere that others could be alone with him.  He should be willing to have the congregation know that he is not to be trusted, and that they should be extra cautious around him.   Otherwise he has not taken the responsibility that forgiveness gives him.  In other words, forgiveness is not a 'get out of jail free' card for him.  And it is not our responsibility to make him feel 'comfortable' with us.

As to becoming victors and overcomers, this is something that will come when those who have been hurt have begun to receive the love and understanding that Jesus is there for them.  My difficulty with this has always been the question of where He was when the abuse was happening? I am still dealing with this aspect of the problem to a certain extent but for you to upbraid me for not having reached your level of understanding would not be appropriate, just as it is not appropriate for others to do at the time of the distress and especially if the perpretator, when known, has not been dealt with appropriately. 

I thank Him that after 65 years I have finally understood that my abuse has made me more empathetic of others who have been hurt and I can often recognize that more readily than others do. But if I had been told that I must 'forgive as Christ has forgiven me' at the time it was happening I would have been more resentful and rebellious than I was.  God only was the One Who was able to reach me on that level and only after I had sought Him on my own.  I think this is what Bonnie and Ozzie and the others have been trying to get you to understand. 

And that seeking did not come through the Adventist church I am sorry to say.  But that is a subject for another thread and time.

GrammieT

[inga]

A short few years ago a academy teacher that had been sued by a student for this type of conduct, settled out of court to a hefty sum and went on to teach academy students again, with full knowledge by the incoming conference.

That is utterly inexcusable, though I know it has happened many times over. Makes one wonder whether the administrators involved feel they live in glass houses or whether they are truly that ignorant.