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[bonnie]

I feel pity for those who REFUSE to see the problem too!  If the SDA church is harboring abusers, then something should really be done about it, either from within or from without.  Why is it allowed to go on?  If you and others are aware of abuse that is currently taking place then you must take it to the authorities in your area.

This is far from a SDA problem,it spans all denominations.

I don't work in the SDA church, nor do I have any real direct contact with them (aside from many SDA family members), so I cannot speak to how much compassion and understanding there is for those who have suffered abuse.  But I do know many places where compassion and understanding are the norm.  There are MANY Christians who actually care and have been trained professionally to know how to deal with abuse, significant loss, addictions, etc.  Compassion and understanding are NOT in short supply.  Maybe those who can't find it aren't looking in the right place.  I feel pity if they cannot find it in the SDA church, or at least in the areas you have been.  That's pretty sad.[/quote]

This is far from a SDA problem,it spans all denominations.

Forgive and all will be well mentality"?  That is not what I have presented, yet you and others still only hear what you're wanting to hear.  I'll talk about being 'frustrated of some of the posters here' as they have continually misrepresented my point.  With the exception of GrammieT (thank you GrammieT), most of the rest of you seem to have an agenda of your own that doesn't include any attempt to understand any other point of view than the one you've already established (which doesn't include ANY Scriptural counsel!).  It doesn't matter what Scripture says, what Christ has said, or what ANY Christian professional counselor says...if it doesn't fit into your agenda then you go on the attack.

Scriptural counsel is not the problem. The problem is that it is reserved for those that have been victimized,never the perpetrator. It does not matter whether it is a serious as sexual abuse,or as seemingly trivial as gossip,theft etc.

I have tried to find and am unable to do so,where you include both parties in your concern. If you have a injured party,it goes without saying there is a perpetrator.

Again, if your church is harboring abusers by shifting them to different places (pastors, teachers, conference officials, etc.), then it's MORE THAN SAD!!!  I couldn't care LESS about ANY denomination doing this and would be in FULL support of a COMPLETE exposure of those CRIMES, regardless of how high up it went!  In fact, put EVERYONE who has knowledge of it and does NOTHING in jail as well!  You guys are sounding a lot like the Catholic priest abusers!  Weed them all out...every last one of them who's abusing their position in a Manama organization to spiritually/sexually/physically/emotionally/or any other kind of 'ally' abuse those within their control or influence.  SPEAK UP!  Don't waste your time here on a board talking about what it means for a Christian to forgive!  Call the authorities.  Don't let it go another day!  You have a responsibility to blow the whistle on the realities you speak of and know about.  Get them out of the situation!  And certainly DON'T go back to that church!!!

All churches harbor abuser's. SDA's have done little to stop the abuse, but SDA's did not invent this problem.

I still see nothing from you that has concern for the total issue of forgiveness. What I see is directed at the injured.
The importance of that cannot be ignored, or should not. Neither should the same concern and "preaching" for those that have harmed others.

Of course there are times that you do not have knowledge of the perpetrator,you only see the end result. But still the responses are only and always geared to the innocent and what they did to do.

Any concern towards where it begins and how can we stop much of it is laid in the lap of the injured. Not to be shared with the guilty.
Forgivness needs to come by victims. That does not stop the perpetrators. You just get more victims

[Ozzie]

Compassion and understanding are not in short supply.  Maybe they are in your church, but there are many healthy churches and Christian groups where compassion and understanding are the norm in dealing with all people.

Yes. Many THINK they are 'caring' as they impose their ideas on others. That's not my idea of caring though. 'CONTROL' is a more appropriate word in many cases.

Well, you must live quite a secluded life if you think that compassion and understanding are not in short supply.  Our family has moved to many many areas, but the denial of abuse is alive and well in all those areas we've been in. I don't know whether to feel pity for those who REFUSE to see the problem, or to be hopping mad at their arrogance and ignorance.

I have never had a problem finding good referrals to Christian counselors, whether it was their own practice or through Christian organizations.  Most have been excellent (but there have be a couple of exceptions!).

I feel pity for those who REFUSE to see the problem too!  If the SDA church is harboring abusers, then something should really be done about it, either from within or from without.  Why is it allowed to go on?  If you and others are aware of abuse that is currently taking place then you must take it to the authorities in your area.

Is sexual abuse the only kind of abuse that you acknowledge Freeindeed? That's what it seems like to me.

'Spiritual abuse' is one of the most common causes of abuse in the SDA Church, and no doubt in many others too. I know it was in the Catholic Church, many years ago; when I was a member. Do you acknowledge 'emotional abuse', 'financial abuse', 'social abuse', along with 'spiritual abuse? If not, you are doing the people you deal with, a greater disservice than you could ever imagine.

Some of these would hardly be accepted by legal authorities if one was taking out a 'domestic violence order' though. That's how so many get away with spiritual abuse bit'.

I don't work in the SDA church, nor do I have any real direct contact with them (aside from many SDA family members), so I cannot speak to how much compassion and understanding there is for those who have suffered abuse.  But I do know many places where compassion and understanding are the norm.  There are MANY Christians who actually care and have been trained professionally to know how to deal with abuse, significant loss, addictions, etc.  Compassion and understanding are NOT in short supply.  Maybe those who can't find it aren't looking in the right place.  I feel pity if they cannot find it in the SDA church, or at least in the areas you have been.  That's pretty sad.

Yes. Indeed, it is sad and why do you think that people are not looking in the right place? When people are beset with these problems, is it not logical that the first people they would turn to, is their church, if they are committed Christians? And, what happens then, when they are treated the way you and so many others seem to think is right?

It would be ideal if that could happen.  Usually the 'others' who knew aren't identified until AFTER the abuse is out in the open.

I can understand the frustration of some of the posters here as they try to get their view point across. Seems to me that so many just can't really get past the usual 'forgive and all will be well' mentality. I can understand people feeling like they're bashing their heads against a brick wall. So many just don't want to understand IMHO. 

"Forgive and all will be well mentality"?  That is not what I have presented, yet you and others still only hear what you're wanting to hear.  I'll talk about being 'frustrated of some of the posters here' as they have continually misrepresented my point.  With the exception of GrammieT (thank you GrammieT), most of the rest of you seem to have an agenda of your own that doesn't include any attempt to understand any other point of view than the one you've already established (which doesn't include ANY Scriptural counsel!).  It doesn't matter what Scripture says, what Christ has said, or what ANY Christian professional counselor says...if it doesn't fit into your agenda then you go on the attack.

Which is fine here on a simple discussion board...but I'd hate to see you deal with people in a clinical setting...

Well, the feeling is mutual there. I'd hate to be dealing with you in a clinical setting and if I were your supervisor (or don't you have supervision and professional development?), I'd certainly be referring you back for further training and continued supervision. There are many so-called Counsellors out there, but I'm pleased to know that legislation is stopping more of the homegrown variety of Counsellors these days.

I can't even see how people can be educated in this regard, as there seems to be some curtain that comes down and blocks their view from the realities of life. It is that by acknowledging this evil, it might expose so-called friends and make things look bad for the Church?  So sad! 

Again, if your church is harboring abusers by shifting them to different places (pastors, teachers, conference officials, etc.), then it's MORE THAN SAD!!!  I couldn't care LESS about ANY denomination doing this and would be in FULL support of a COMPLETE exposure of those CRIMES, regardless of how high up it went!  In fact, put EVERYONE who has knowledge of it and does NOTHING in jail as well!  You guys are sounding a lot like the Catholic priest abusers!  Weed them all out...every last one of them who's abusing their position in a man-made organization to spiritually/sexually/physically/emotionally/or any other kind of 'ally' abuse those within their control or influence.  SPEAK UP!  Don't waste your time here on a board talking about what it means for a Christian to forgive!  Call the authorities.  Don't let it go another day!  You have a responsibility to blow the whistle on the realities you speak of and know about.  Get them out of the situation!  And certainly DON'T go back to that church!!!

I'll be praying for you and those situations.  If you know of any of them here in Colorado PM me.  I know many people and friends in law enforcement, and at the very least it's a place to start.

In Christ alone...

I don't live in the US, so no use contacting you. Don't worry, wherever I see a problem, I DEAL WITH IT.

[Freeindeed]

Yes. Many THINK they are 'caring' as they impose their ideas on others. That's not my idea of caring though. 'CONTROL' is a more appropriate word in many cases.

I'm not sure what you had in mind when typing your statement, so it's hard to know if I actually agree with the implication behind your words.

Is sexual abuse the only kind of abuse that you acknowledge Freeindeed? That's what it seems like to me.

Where did I single out only sexual abuse?  I'm not aware that I did.

'Spiritual abuse' is one of the most common causes of abuse in the SDA Church, and no doubt in many others too. I know it was in the Catholic Church, many years ago; when I was a member. Do you acknowledge 'emotional abuse', 'financial abuse', 'social abuse', along with 'spiritual abuse? If not, you are doing the people you deal with, a greater disservice than you could ever imagine.

Oh, most definitely I acknowledge them!  You bet!  My family and I experienced spiritual abuse to a large degree in the SDA church, and the conference official responsible was driven out of the conference only to become the president of another conference where he is spiritually abusing others (go figure!!).

Again, where did you get the idea that I singled out only one type of abuse?

Some of these would hardly be accepted by legal authorities if one was taking out a 'domestic violence order' though. That's how so many get away with spiritual abuse bit'.

Often it all kind of goes together...at least as I've observed (physical, sexual, emotional, financial...).

Yes. Indeed, it is sad and why do you think that people are not looking in the right place? When people are beset with these problems, is it not logical that the first people they would turn to, is their church, if they are committed Christians? And, what happens then, when they are treated the way you and so many others seem to think is right?

Aside from your personal jab, we have people every week who turn to 'the church' for help and they get it.  Our Celebrate Recovery ministry has produced some absolutely amazing stories from those being released from the slavery of ALL types of bondage.  In fact, the message for the 5 services in the first weekend of July are for specifically celebrating the freedom of a few of those people.  People are finding healing and release EVERY week in that ministry, and it's not the only ministry where people can turn to find compassion and understanding.  And we're just ONE church.  I know of MANY other churches that I can confidently refer to knowing they'll find what they're looking for.

Well, the feeling is mutual there. I'd hate to be dealing with you in a clinical setting and if I were your supervisor (or don't you have supervision and professional development?), I'd certainly be referring you back for further training and continued supervision. There are many so-called Counsellors out there, but I'm pleased to know that legislation is stopping more of the homegrown variety of Counsellors these days.

In the realm of Christian counselors I've not seen anything or anyone here that I would feel comfortable referring anyone to.  Where is Jesus in your counseling?  Where is the Gospel?  Where is the One who heals the sick, who sets the captives free, who releases the prisoners, who forgives the debts...I don't see Him in ANY of your posts.

I don't live in the US, so no use contacting you. Don't worry, wherever I see a problem, I DEAL WITH IT.

Good to hear, because it sounds like many here do not.  Rather than spending time here in 'discussion' with people like you and me they should be out addressing the REAL issues in their churches that they have said they're aware of.

In CHRIST alone...