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[Artiste]

Though it slumber long. After all, even Jerusalem stood almost 40 years after the Son of God was brutally tortured and murdered, but it eventually met the fate it had chosen.

But in 66 AD the Jews there were about to surrender to Cestius, though Cestius didn't know it. So he retreated, and the Jews took that as a sign that God was with them. They followed the retreating Romans and massacred many of them. With both the Romans and the Jews gone, the Christians got out of there, for they knew the sign that Christ had given them for when it would be time to flee.

The Jews were certain that the Romans' retreat was the blessing of God for them, and that event inspired them to ever afterwards refuse to surrender, trusting that God would deliver them again. But they misread the purpose of His providence. Not for them was that retreat, but for the Christians. And their misreading that providence inspired them in such a way that it brought about their own destruction rather than deliverance.

Mimekomeha malkenu tofi'a vetimloh aleynu ki mehakim anahnu lah.  Matay timloh betziyon bekarov beyameynu le'olam va'ed tishkon.  Titgadal vetitkadash betoh yerushalayim ireha ledor vador ulnetzah netzahim.

We sang this in Shabbat Service this morning...a beautiful and haunting melody...the hope of the Jewish people...

[GrandmaNettie]

Perhaps you could translate the song so that the readers could know what the hope of the Jewish people is.

[Artiste]

And from Your dwelling-place, our Sovereign appear,
and reign among us,
for we wait for You.
When will You reign in Zion?
Soon, and in our lifetime,
may Your greatness and Your holiness be realized
in Jerusalem, Your city.

[GrandmaNettie]

Yes, God is good. But the Bible says that He changes not. Do you believe the Bible, Sam?

Throughout Scripture it makes it quite clear that the blessings of God in His work are conditional upon obedience. A case in point is in Joshua. The Israelites marched around Jericho once a day for six days, not saying a word. Then on the seventh day they went around seven times, and then shouted for all they were worth. God did the rest, what they could not do, and the walls were flat in record time.

Then on to Ai and 30+ Israelites died. Joshua was aghast and beside himself, but God told him to get up. The problem was that there was sin in the camp. One man's sin cost the lives of 30+ Israelites throughout the forfeiture of God's blessing.

Ellen White has a bit to say about this subject.

So Sam, do you believe what the Bible says? Do you believe that if sin is left to remain in the 3ABN camp, that it will forfeit God's blessing and invite His wrath, though it slumber long?

Bob, do you believe that there is no sin among the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church?  Rather unlikely, don't you think? Where is the SaveTheSDAChurch website or discussion forum?   Do you believe that in your investigation of 3abn you and Gailon are doing God's work?  Are you sinless as you proceed?  Are you obeying God completely?  Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?   

Think about Habanero's recent post that you invoked to challenge Sam.  Does wild success necessarily mean God is blessing?  No.  And the converse is also true.  Look at Job.  His life was thown into an ash heap.  Everything was stripped away from him.  His friends came to him chastising him about the sin in his life that had caused the removal of God's blessing.  Were they correct?  No. 

I am not inferring that Danny Shelton or his leadership are either sinful or sinfree.  I'm just suggesting that perhaps you are using a rather flawed argument here.  If the Aichen example applies to the SDA Denomination, every Christian Ministry and the Body of Christ, we are all in deep, deep trouble because "there is none perfect, no not one".  I am under the impression that when Jesus laid down His life and then rose again, we entered into a new era.  Not an era of permissiveness, but of Grace...Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and covered by His Righteousness, not our own. 

God changes not.  Behold the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.  It is people who misinterpret and misapply what He has said and who He is.  When will WE change and get it right?

[GrandmaNettie]

And from Your dwelling-place, our Sovereign appear,
and reign among us,
for we wait for You.
When will You reign in Zion?
Soon, and in our lifetime,
may Your greatness and Your holiness be realized
in Jerusalem, Your city.

Thank you, Artiste.  Beautiful words, indeed.

In the Lord's Prayer, Jesus said

Our Father, who art in heaven....

The Aramaic words used here, per my pastor, mean that heaven is all around us, not some remote spot far off in some corner of the universe.  In my thinking, that means that hope has already been realized.  God is with us.  All around us. Closer than the very air we breathe.

The Lord's Prayer sung in Syriac Aramaic, thought by some to be the language Jesus spoke

[Snoopy]

Are you??

Are you sinless as you proceed?  Are you obeying God completely?  Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?   

[Bob Pickle]

By what I have observed, at least here in this country, yes, it is normal for people to sue.  Many people sue for far less.  It's just the way many people solve their problems.  Yes, I know you feel that the suit is attempting to constrain or threaten your First Amendment rights, but it is normal for people to sue for such.

I've seen and heard of a lot of things, but I've never seen or heard of a Seventh-day Adventist suing those who were concerned about child molestation allegations. I cannot consider this behavior normal because I've never seen or heard of a Seventh-day Adventist doing this before.

Is it normal for someone to allow Gailon to compare Fran to Jesus writing in the dust and chasing away the Pharisees?

Is that what Gailon did? Did Gailon compare Fran to Jesus and then state that she was divine or our savior or some such? Or was he simply drawing a comparison between two situations?

Danny allowed John Lomacang unrebuked to compare him to Moses and then draw from that the conclusion that criticism and concerns about Danny's actions were wrong.

Isnt' it the right, under the First Amendment, for both the preacher and Gailon to say what they want, even if it might be offensive to others?

It would also be allowed under the First Amendment for John Lomacang to curse and swear, but that doesn't mean he should continue to stand behind a pulpit if he chooses to engage in such behavior. Likewise, he is free under the First Amendment to teach the rank heresy that Danny is beyond human correction, but if he continues to do so, he should not do it over the airwaves of 3ABN or under the employ of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

[Bob Pickle]

I'm just suggesting that perhaps you are using a rather flawed argument here.

Not so. I suggest you do a little study into Spirit of Prophecy comments on the story of Achan.

Achan's sin brought disaster upon the whole nation. For one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon His church till the transgression is searched out and put away. The influence most to be feared by the church is not that of open opposers, infidels, and blasphemers, but of inconsistent professors of Christ. These are the ones that keep back the blessing of the God of Israel and bring weakness upon His people.

When the church is in difficulty, when coldness and spiritual declension exist, giving occasion for the enemies of God to triumph, then, instead of folding their hands and lamenting their unhappy state, let its members inquire if there is not an Achan in the camp. With humiliation and searching of heart, let each seek to discover the hidden sins that shut out God's presence. (PP 497)

The history of Achan teaches the solemn lesson that for one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon a people or a nation till the transgression is searched out and punished. Sin is corrupting in its nature. One man infected with its deadly leprosy may communicate the taint to thousands. Those who occupy responsible positions as guardians of the people are false to their trust if they do not faithfully search out and reprove sin. Many dare not condemn iniquity, lest they shall thereby sacrifice position or popularity. And by some it is considered uncharitable to rebuke sin. The servant of God should never allow his own spirit to be mingled with the reproof which he is required to give; but he is under the most solemn obligation to present the Word of God, without fear or favor. He must call sin by its right name. Those who by their carelessness or indifference permit God's name to be dishonored by His professed people, are numbered with the transgressor,--registered in the record of heaven as partakers in their evil deeds. (2BC 996)

[Habanero]

Since the dawn of recorded history people have tried to circumvent human nature, without exception unsuccessfully.
Each player in this drama and each active spectator is acting the same part that has been played thousands of times by counterparts all over the world for as long as there have been people. The names and faces are different but the roles are the same. WE don't change and get it right. History doesn't support that, it just repeats itself again and again. A wheel going round and round.

When will WE change and get it right?

[Ozzie]

Even Adventist pastors have sometimes been accused playing the numbers game to try to make their church performances look better.

That is so true and I have major objections to that practice.

Isn't tithe allocated on the basis of number of church members in each Church?

I have a pet grievance about keeping people on the roll who haven't been heard of for years, just so the numbers 'look right'.

[GrandmaNettie]

I'm just suggesting that perhaps you are using a rather flawed argument here.

Not so. I suggest you do a little study into Spirit of Prophecy comments on the story of Achan.

Achan's sin brought disaster upon the whole nation. For one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon His church till the transgression is searched out and put away. The influence most to be feared by the church is not that of open opposers, infidels, and blasphemers, but of inconsistent professors of Christ. These are the ones that keep back the blessing of the God of Israel and bring weakness upon His people.

When the church is in difficulty, when coldness and spiritual declension exist, giving occasion for the enemies of God to triumph, then, instead of folding their hands and lamenting their unhappy state, let its members inquire if there is not an Achan in the camp. With humiliation and searching of heart, let each seek to discover the hidden sins that shut out God's presence. (PP 497)

The history of Achan teaches the solemn lesson that for one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon a people or a nation till the transgression is searched out and punished. Sin is corrupting in its nature. One man infected with its deadly leprosy may communicate the taint to thousands. Those who occupy responsible positions as guardians of the people are false to their trust if they do not faithfully search out and reprove sin. Many dare not condemn iniquity, lest they shall thereby sacrifice position or popularity. And by some it is considered uncharitable to rebuke sin. The servant of God should never allow his own spirit to be mingled with the reproof which he is required to give; but he is under the most solemn obligation to present the Word of God, without fear or favor. He must call sin by its right name. Those who by their carelessness or indifference permit God's name to be dishonored by His professed people, are numbered with the transgressor,--registered in the record of heaven as partakers in their evil deeds. (2BC 996)

Read this prayerfully, Bob.  Can you honestly say that you and Gailon have followed the counsel in paragraph two?  I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), page 144, paragraph 2-3


    Chapter Title: Talk to Ministers

There was a time when Israel could not prevail against their enemies. This was because of Achan's sin. God declared, "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed thing from among you." God is the same today. If defiling sins are cherished by those who claim to believe the truth, the displeasure of God rests upon the church, and He will not remove it until the members do all in their power to show their hatred for sin, and their determination to cast it out of the church. God is displeased with those who call evil good and good evil. If jealousy, evil surmising, and evil-speaking are allowed to have a place in the church, that church is under the frown of God. It will be spiritually unhealthy until it is cleansed from these sins, for till then God cannot reveal His power to strengthen and elevate His people and give them victory.

God is not pleased with the slothful work done in the churches. He expects His stewards to be true and faithful in giving reproof and correction. They are to expel wrong after the rule God has given in His Word, not according to their own ideas and impulses. No harsh means must be used, no unfair, hasty, impulsive work done. The efforts made to cleanse the church from moral uncleanness must be made in God's way. There must be no partiality, no hypocrisy. There must be no favorites, whose sins are regarded as less sinful than those of others. Oh, how much we all need the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Then we shall always work with the mind of Christ, with kindness, compassion, and sympathy, showing love for the sinner while hating sin with a perfect hatred.

[GrandmaNettie]

Sadly, so very true.  I have faith that I can change, that you can change... that there is hope for truth and understanding.  It won't happen by following man's image of God, but by actually discovering for ourselves the true God, and then loving our fellow humans just as deeply and compassionately as He loves us and as we need to love ourselves.

Since the dawn of recorded history people have tried to circumvent human nature, without exception unsuccessfully.
Each player in this drama and each active spectator is acting the same part that has been played thousands of times by counterparts all over the world for as long as there have been people. The names and faces are different but the roles are the same. WE don't change and get it right. History doesn't support that, it just repeats itself again and again. A wheel going round and round.

When will WE change and get it right?

[GrandmaNettie]

Of course not.

Are you??

Are you sinless as you proceed?  Are you obeying God completely?  Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?   

[Snoopy]

Read this prayerfully, GrandmaNettie.  Can you honestly say that you and ImaAnt have followed the counsel in paragraph two?  I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), page 144, paragraph 2-3


    Chapter Title: Talk to Ministers

There was a time when Israel could not prevail against their enemies. This was because of Achan's sin. God declared, "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed thing from among you." God is the same today. If defiling sins are cherished by those who claim to believe the truth, the displeasure of God rests upon the church, and He will not remove it until the members do all in their power to show their hatred for sin, and their determination to cast it out of the church. God is displeased with those who call evil good and good evil. If jealousy, evil surmising, and evil-speaking are allowed to have a place in the church, that church is under the frown of God. It will be spiritually unhealthy until it is cleansed from these sins, for till then God cannot reveal His power to strengthen and elevate His people and give them victory.

God is not pleased with the slothful work done in the churches. He expects His stewards to be true and faithful in giving reproof and correction. They are to expel wrong after the rule God has given in His Word, not according to their own ideas and impulses. No harsh means must be used, no unfair, hasty, impulsive work done. The efforts made to cleanse the church from moral uncleanness must be made in God's way. There must be no partiality, no hypocrisy. There must be no favorites, whose sins are regarded as less sinful than those of others. Oh, how much we all need the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Then we shall always work with the mind of Christ, with kindness, compassion, and sympathy, showing love for the sinner while hating sin with a perfect hatred.

[Ozzie]

But Snoopy, don't you realise that they don't think those words apply to them. This is just another case of 'abusive behaviour', where people are prepared to hit others over the head with Scripture (in this case, SOP), without thinking how it applies to them.

Just don't expect them to replace themselves in the same situation. They just can't (won't) see it. And... don't speak of loyalty anywhere either, as they wouldn't have a clue what that means either.  So sad. 

Read this prayerfully, GrandmaNettie.  Can you honestly say that you and ImaAnt have followed the counsel in paragraph two?  I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), page 144, paragraph 2-3


    Chapter Title: Talk to Ministers

There was a time when Israel could not prevail against their enemies. This was because of Achan's sin. God declared, "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed thing from among you." God is the same today. If defiling sins are cherished by those who claim to believe the truth, the displeasure of God rests upon the church, and He will not remove it until the members do all in their power to show their hatred for sin, and their determination to cast it out of the church. God is displeased with those who call evil good and good evil. If jealousy, evil surmising, and evil-speaking are allowed to have a place in the church, that church is under the frown of God. It will be spiritually unhealthy until it is cleansed from these sins, for till then God cannot reveal His power to strengthen and elevate His people and give them victory.

God is not pleased with the slothful work done in the churches. He expects His stewards to be true and faithful in giving reproof and correction. They are to expel wrong after the rule God has given in His Word, not according to their own ideas and impulses. No harsh means must be used, no unfair, hasty, impulsive work done. The efforts made to cleanse the church from moral uncleanness must be made in God's way. There must be no partiality, no hypocrisy. There must be no favorites, whose sins are regarded as less sinful than those of others. Oh, how much we all need the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Then we shall always work with the mind of Christ, with kindness, compassion, and sympathy, showing love for the sinner while hating sin with a perfect hatred.