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[Bob Pickle]

To qualify, Sam's recent post was specifically to show that, because of the numbers, 3ABN was not about to go down the tubes.

Certain aspects of Danny's conduct are indisputable, from what I can tell. Other aspects some people will try to dispute.

[Habanero]

Grandma Nettie, I was not accusing Danny Shelton of abberations or talking about justifying them. I was making a point to Sam that numbers are not a measure of good and bad. In fact I mentioned the the Nazis, the music companies, Girls Gone Wild, and Penthouse to demonstrate that although they are 180 degees opposite of Danny Shelton and 3ABN they have bigger numbers.

Junebug,

Habanero made a valid point. When people justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game, if one plays that same game with unquestionably inappropriate entities, those entities win the numbers game.

In other words, the numbers game is not a valid argument, and never has been.

Bob, I agree with the philosophical point that Habanero was making as well as your summation that I have bolded.  However, are you both certain that the point of Sam's post was to "justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game"?  Plus, have you adequately established that Danny Shelton does, indeed, have aberrations since you didn't refer to them as "alleged".  I do know that you have mentioned the huge amount of documentation that you have, but are you certain it is all flawlessly factual, enough so to claim aberrations as you have?

[Artiste]

Auchwitz has larger and more spectacular tours than any tour 3ABN will ever concoct.

One Nazi rally drew bigger crowds than twenty years worth of 3ABN TC/Campmeetings.

The subsidiaries of Sony, Warner, and Death Row Records have sold more sound tracks in a day than 3ABN Sound Center will sell in a decade.

Record crowds, calls, sales, and hold times are no measure of right or good.

Remember what the members of Heaven's Gate, People's Temple, Colonia Dignidad, the Branch Davidians, the Mujahideen, and innumerable other cults and extremists have said when confronted? Sound familiar? It should. You are doing a great job of making 3ABN sound like just another of those cults. You sound just like them and thats sad and alarming.

Contemplate the truth of this matter, Sam. What would you have been in Germany, Chile, Waco, and many other places?

Very good points, all of the above!

Even Adventist pastors have sometimes been accused playing the numbers game to try to make their church performances look better.

[GrandmaNettie]

I know you weren't.  I was in a  hurry to finish my post before an appointment and I see where I said "are you both certain" when it should have said "are you certain" because I was speaking directly to Bob.  I totally agree with your point, as I often do.  I should have commented separately on your post so as not to cause any confusion. 

Grandma Nettie, I was not accusing Danny Shelton of abberations or talking about justifying them. I was making a point to Sam that numbers are not a measure of good and bad. In fact I mentioned the the Nazis, the music companies, Girls Gone Wild, and Penthouse to demonstrate that although they are 180 degees opposite of Danny Shelton and 3ABN they have bigger numbers.

Junebug,

Habanero made a valid point. When people justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game, if one plays that same game with unquestionably inappropriate entities, those entities win the numbers game.

In other words, the numbers game is not a valid argument, and never has been.

Bob, I agree with the philosophical point that Habanero was making as well as your summation that I have bolded.  However, are you both certain that the point of Sam's post was to "justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game"?  Plus, have you adequately established that Danny Shelton does, indeed, have aberrations since you didn't refer to them as "alleged".  I do know that you have mentioned the huge amount of documentation that you have, but are you certain it is all flawlessly factual, enough so to claim aberrations as you have?

[Bob Pickle]

I'm now wondering if I used a word that has connotations I wasn't intending. What exactly does aberration mean?

I meant something along the lines of misdeeds or inappropriate conduct.

[Emma]

I would understand that word, when describing behaviour, to mean something different from what was normal or usual for that individual or situation.

[Bob Pickle]

Well, if that is what it means, is it normal for people to sue under the circumstances we have? Is it normal for someone to allow a preacher to compare them to Moses and put them beyond human correction?

[Ozzie]

I would understand that word, when describing behaviour, to mean something different from what was normal or usual for that individual or situation.

That is my understanding of that terminology too Emma - a term used most frequently by psychologists and those working in related disciplines.

[Ozzie]

Well, if that is what it means, is it normal for people to sue under the circumstances we have? Is it normal for someone to allow a preacher to compare them to Moses and put them beyond human correction?

No. It's not 'normal' (whatever 'normal' means'), but it certainly smacks of delusions of grandeur! 

[Artiste]

ADMIN NOTE:  Quoted post by Jack Indabocks edited out

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jack to Advent Talk!

Your above lengthy discourse on the evils of pornography is indeed unusual for the Advent Talk forum, which generally tries to maintain a higher tone of communication.

[Ozzie]

ADMIN NOTE:  Quoted post by Jack Indabocks edited out
-----------------------------------------------------------

You know Jack, I doubt that most people would have known what was being referred to, if you hadn't enlightened all and sundry. I doubt that this topic should be here in AT. I'll have a yarn with the Moderators here, as I personally, find it quite inappropriate.

[Sam]

Auchwitz has larger and more spectacular tours than any tour 3ABN will ever concoct.

One Nazi rally drew bigger crowds than twenty years worth of 3ABN TC/Campmeetings.

The subsidiaries of Sony, Warner, and Death Row Records have sold more sound tracks in a day than 3ABN Sound Center will sell in a decade.

Record crowds, calls, sales, and hold times are no measure of right or good.

Remember what the members of Heaven's Gate, People's Temple, Colonia Dignidad, the Branch Davidians, the Mujahideen, and innumerable other cults and extremists have said when confronted? Sound familiar? It should. You are doing a great job of making 3ABN sound like just another of those cults. You sound just like them and thats sad and alarming.

Contemplate the truth of this matter, Sam. What would you have been in Germany, Chile, Waco, and many other places?

Where in the world did you get such an idea? You obviously haven't been there so must have gotten this faulty info second or third hand.

 I said before I was able to attend the TC/campmeeting and there were record crowds. They give tours of the facilities and they are unbelievable. There is now a new kids time set which is already operational!  The sound center recording studio has branched out to be able to offer soundtracks to the public.  New programs are in the works!  The ladies that take orders and answer questions at the call center say the phones are busy constantly.  The thursday night lives are more popular than ever. I know, I called there with a question one thursday night and was on hold for 18 minutes!

Next time you take one of your walks, contemplate the truth of this matter instead of how you want it to be.

Habanero and Bob,  My post had nothing whatsoever to do with record crowds or "numbers games" as you have stated. It was about the "Life" of 3abn which, to me, is defined as it's outreach, it's ministry, the growing and expansion..... My comments were in answer to SSOM's post and insinuation that poor 3abn was going down the drain never to be heard from again when in reality as I saw for myself, it is THRIVING!  God is good.

[Bob Pickle]

Yes, God is good. But the Bible says that He changes not. Do you believe the Bible, Sam?

Throughout Scripture it makes it quite clear that the blessings of God in His work are conditional upon obedience. A case in point is in Joshua. The Israelites marched around Jericho once a day for six days, not saying a word. Then on the seventh day they went around seven times, and then shouted for all they were worth. God did the rest, what they could not do, and the walls were flat in record time.

Then on to Ai and 30+ Israelites died. Joshua was aghast and beside himself, but God told him to get up. The problem was that there was sin in the camp. One man's sin cost the lives of 30+ Israelites throughout the forfeiture of God's blessing.

Ellen White has a bit to say about this subject.

So Sam, do you believe what the Bible says? Do you believe that if sin is left to remain in the 3ABN camp, that it will forfeit God's blessing and invite His wrath, though it slumber long?

[Bob Pickle]

Though it slumber long. After all, even Jerusalem stood almost 40 years after the Son of God was brutally tortured and murdered, but it eventually met the fate it had chosen.

But in 66 AD the Jews there were about to surrender to Cestius, though Cestius didn't know it. So he retreated, and the Jews took that as a sign that God was with them. They followed the retreating Romans and massacred many of them. With both the Romans and the Jews gone, the Christians got out of there, for they knew the sign that Christ had given them for when it would be time to flee.

The Jews were certain that the Romans' retreat was the blessing of God for them, and that event inspired them to ever afterwards refuse to surrender, trusting that God would deliver them again. But they misread the purpose of His providence. Not for them was that retreat, but for the Christians. And their misreading that providence inspired them in such a way that it brought about their own destruction rather than deliverance.

[GrandmaNettie]

From Miriam-Webster online:

Main Enrty:  aberration
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin aberrare
Date: 1594
1 : the fact or an instance of being aberrant especially from a moral standard or normal state
2 : failure of a mirror, refracting surface, or lens to produce exact point-to-point correspondence between an object and its image
3 : unsoundness or disorder of the mind
4 : a small periodic change of apparent position in celestial bodies due to the combined effect of the motion of light and the motion of the observer
Main Entry: aberrant
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin aberrant-, aberrans, present participle of aberrare to go astray, from ab- + errare to wander, err
Date: circa 1780
1 : straying from the right or normal way
2 : deviating from the usual or natural type : atypical

Well, if that is what it means, is it normal for people to sue under the circumstances we have?

By what I have observed, at least here in this country, yes, it is normal for people to sue.  Many people sue for far less.  It's just the way many people solve their problems.  Yes, I know you feel that the suit is attempting to constrain or threaten your First Amendment rights, but it is normal for people to sue for such.

Is it normal for someone to allow a preacher to compare them to Moses and put them beyond human correction?

Is it normal for someone to allow Gailon to compare Fran to Jesus writing in the dust and chasing away the Pharisees? 

Isnt' it the right, under the First Amendment, for both the preacher and Gailon to say what they want, even if it might be offensive to others?