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Author Topic: eBay Sales Controversy?  (Read 91028 times)

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Sam

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eBay Sales Controversy?
« on: June 01, 2008, 10:09:29 AM »

Fran's comments on 3ABN eBay transactions have been put here into a new thread.

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Wednesday was the first meeting and 3ABN broke a record on the number of people there, over 1000 on the first night! They expect 1800 by Sabbath.  I'd say there are a lot of full motels in the area.

Someone tells me that it looked like there was 200 or 250 people there. Do you have any pictures that show 1000 there?

C'mon Bob. Even those here that hate 3abn that watched can tell you different.  I just got back late last night from attending the 3abn campmeeting. Am so happy to be able now to answer some of your questions that have been posted the last few days.

1.  There was an incredible number of people there from opening night on. Sabbath was close to 2000 people.

2.  The check presented to Jim G. on opening night was a total of all sales from the donation department, not just ebay, for the past 9 - 12 months.  It was a giant mock check representing the sum of those sales.  I visited the sale barn and spoke with Mr. Chance myself. They had an incredible array of items and were extremely busy there.

3.  For FRAN.  Never ever has there been a claim for 2.4 million or whatever it was she quoted. The quote was more than 1/2 million for approximately 4 years of work.  So Fran's claim of how donations have really "went down" was totally false.

4.  For FRAN.  The gift shop on ebay was never called don_3abn.  That was the user ID.  Anything sold on ebay before the Chance's took over was sold in the normal auction fashion as there was no store until the Chance's started one.  From day one the store was called 3 Angels gift shop and still remains with that name. Again, The claims by Fran that the store name was changed to hide bad feedback is 100% false.  Let's go over it again for clarification.
don_3abn was the user ID as there was no store until the Chance's started one. Anything sold before that time was sold in the regular way, not via a store.

5. For FRAN.  From Mr. Chance directly:  The beginning of a store was a learning experience. Learning the best way to sell, what to sell, and what payment methods to take.  They had to learn about paypal and its process.  In the beginning they accepted checks, money orders, credit card and then paypal. After a time they found that buyers were taking an excessive amount of time to mail in checks and money orders so eventually, they quit taking those methods of payments.  Every month the invoices from ebay and paypal are downloaded, printed out and given to the accounting department, along with copies of the actual sales, buyers name and address and when the item was sold and then shipped. All of these records are turned over to Accounting every month. Credit card payments are not taken by the donations department but directly by the accounting department. Accounting is the number listed on ebay to call for cc payment.  Each item that is sold is then entered into the database that has the donor's information and constituent number. The item sold is recorded along with the date it was sold and the price it was sold for.  Those records are given to the Accounting dept every month so that the donor can be receipted for the sale of their item.

Rather complicated isn't it?  Quite a paper trail.  Having read all of the speculation and allegations concerning this (as well as many others) I made a point to ask the questions and received the answers in an open and concise manner.  I got these answers straight from the "horses mouth" as they say. How wrong you all have been about this and so many other things.

Several board members were in attendance.  When I ask one (without trying to seem like I was just prying) if any of the subjects voted on, during the board meeting, resulted in any kind of tie vote.  This board member answered absolutely not and couldn't imagine where I would hear such false information. 

It was a fantastic and spirit filled campmeeting.  I talked to many many people there who couldn't wait until the fall campmeeting. That includes me!

I talked for a minute with Pastor Gilley. He said Danny had a nice break while building his house but he wanted to get him to spend a lot more time on the air. He said people are "demanding" it.  By the crowds surrounding him, Jim and lots of other 3abner's, I could see he was telling the truth.

Now you can all argue with your allegations and speculations. But most reasonable people are going to believe someone who was there, talked to these people and personally experienced the spirit filled campmeeting. As opposed to your guesses, accusations and rumors.

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=edited to spit topic into new thread=

« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 12:01:40 AM by Artiste »
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Fran

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2008, 12:48:13 AM »

Sam;
Thank you so much for responding to me in particular.  I read the post, then decided to wait on my response since you were attending Campmeeting and the 10 Commandment Weekend. 
I watched much of it.  I was blessed overall, with a few exceptions.


I enjoyed the commentary between sessions with the husband and wife teams.  Hope channel does this, and I love it.  After they do it several more times, they will improve and be able to talk expanding their vocabularies to have a broader view of the events happening there at 3ABN.


I did enjoy most of the sermons.  They were all good; it is just my personal preferences.  In my opinion, a couple of speakers forgot they had a commandment to speak about and got derailed for a few minutes, but did get back on track after a few minutes.  That does happen to everyone at times, even me!


I enjoyed the 5th and the 7th commandments especially, they were amazing!

 
As I respond to your comments to me specifically, please understand that my knowledge and understanding of these items are not the same as yours. 



This does not mean that I am attacking you at all.  As I speak, take the message in the spirit it is given.  It is not an attack on you,  or your understanding of the subject.  That said, I will respond to your comments on the subject of eBay and 3ABN.



Everyone, including Sam, please notice that I have corrected spelling and added or changed some punctuation.  I have not changed Sam’s words.

Quote
C'mon Bob.
Even those here that hate 3abn that watched can tell you different.  I just got back late last night from attending the 3abn Campmeeting. Am so happy to be able now to answer some of your questions that have been posted the last few days.

1.  There was an incredible number of people there from opening night on. Sabbath was close to 2000 people.



This was not addresses to me specifically, but I do not believe in taking text out of contest, therefore I chose to leave your post in tact; just split into sections to help me stay on each subject.


To Be Continued…
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Fran

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2008, 12:50:12 AM »

Quote
2.  The check presented to Jim G. on opening night was a total of all sales from the donation department, not just eBay, for the past 9 - 12 months.  It was a giant mock check representing the sum of those sales.  I visited the sale barn and spoke with Mr. Chance myself. They had an incredible array of items and were extremely busy there.


Why would they be for 9 – 12 months instead of the full past 12 months.  To be even more informative, it could have been said that there was a mean average of so many $’s per month, or being for a specific time period.  Other than that, it should have been presented as in the past year or as, thus far in this fiscal period we have sold this much.


My perception of the presentation is that Jim Gilley joined with 3ABN in August 2007.  That is 9 months.  I believe that that is the reason it was for 9 months.  Could it be there was a change in the way 3ABN is doing business?  I hope so.


If this were the case, it could be said, that this amount was since Jim Gilley became the president, there have been $$$ of sale of the non-cash donated goods given to 3ABN.


When the check was presented, it should have been stated that that check “represented” the amount of sales over a specific period of time, and not for a non specific period of time.


Thank you for telling us that the check was only a "representation" of the sales.  It, however, does cause me concern that the sales are accounted for outside of 3ABN’s books.  Definitely, the CFO should have been consulted as to how the presentation was made to make sure there was a clear presentation that did not cause questions.


Surely if 3ABN had been advised on  these points before hand, and we would not be wondering about it on the Internet.


To Be Continued…
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Fran

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2008, 12:52:09 AM »

Quote
3.  For FRAN. 

Never ever has there been a claim for 2.4 million or whatever it was she quoted. The quote was more than 1/2 million for approximately 4 years of work.  So Fran's claim of how donations have really "went down" was totally false.


If you can, go back to the last 2 Campmeeting videos or DVD’s, you will find that Danny did interview Tammy on the air.  Tammy did announce that since February, 3ABN had brought in $2.4 million in sales of good donated to 3ABN.  She said they had sold vehicles, Motor Homes … 


Then later they ran a full program with Bruce & Tammy, where they discouraged donors from sending 3ABN jewelry.  They explained that they could never get the value of the items.
My opinion says that if a $10,000 diamond is donated, and it only brings $2,500, that $2,500 is more than they had before the donation!  With the price of gold right now, I would take the gold jewelry also!


To solve this dilemma, I might ask that you ask Tammy about this.  She was the one on the stage, not Bruce.


I firmly state that this is a Fact.  Sales from donated items have gone down.  Tammy did not stumble when she said that amount was from February thru May, Campmeeting time.  She got great applause!  Danny was bragging about her doing so well in the sales department.  Yes, sales are down, and she did say $2.4 million. 


The reason I remember that figure is because in the 3ABN vs. the IL Property Tax Lawsuit and the 990’s brought out that  3ABN forgot to post $2.45+ Million dollars involving Trust Funds.  These amounts struck me as a coincidence.


I took that amount and took an average per month and then researched their sales from their feedback on eBay.  It had to be from sales from their other eBay sellers and the now Famous Barn Sales.


Do you by “Chance”, know the sales from the Barn Sale this year?


To Be Continued…

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Fran

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2008, 12:57:04 AM »

Quote
4.  For FRAN.  The gift shop on eBay was never called don_3abn.  That was the user ID.  Anything sold on eBay before the Chance's took over was sold in the normal auction fashion as there was no store until the Chance's started one.  From day one the store was called 3 Angels gift shop and still remains with that name. Again, The claims by Fran that the store name was changed to hide bad feedback is 100% false.  Let's go over it again for clarification.  don_3abn was the user ID as there was no store until the Chance's started one. Anything sold before that time was sold in the regular way, not via a store.


My goodness, no argument here since we are both right.  My post did say don_3abn was the user id!    We have the same understanding on this front.  We are in agreement.  Look at my post in response to Bonnie, who asked if anyone knew the “User ID” for 3ABN.   I responded to her “don_3ABN” is the user id.


So we are in agreement on this item.


Now, 3ABN started selling on eBay in 1998.  I made purchases.  The User ID at that time was nan_don!  The Store now says it started June 1, 2001, on the information page right now.  3ABN has a total feedback of 2011; however the feedback SCORE is 1581.  What does this mean?  It means that they have bought and sold to 1581 unique accounts.  The difference is for repeat sellers and buyers.


Go to:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=nan_don&ftab=AllFeedback


nan_don have feedback that begins on page 186. On the bottom left you will find a go to button.  Enter 186 and click go. They began getting feedback Mar-20-98 06:10


Now, if you will go to:


http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=nan_don&iid=-1&de=off&items=25


Notice I am on page 150, the first page of feedback as a seller!  Click on the tabs to view other data.  This shows when nan_don started on their own in Van, TX.


It only began on May-15-02 19:30.  This is very interesting since they have been selling since Mar-06-98.  Is that strange or what?   Why they are only attributed feedback since Aug-13-01 18:43, is the question..  They did not get credit for the sales from 1998 to 8/13/2001.  That belongs to 3ABN.


Go to as a Buyer Feedback on page 27:


http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsBuyer&userid=nan_don&iid=-1&de=off&items=25


They started making purchases through eBay only beginning Aug-13-01 18:43.


Now go to 3ABN.  Click on all of the tabs. And check the Feedback tabs.


Since 3ABN began 6/1/2001, where is their feedback before Aug-31-02 09:33. Fourteen months are gone.  You look on your own from here on.


http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=don_3abn&iid=-1&de=off&items=25


Who gets the credit for everything before August 13, 2001?  That went to nan_don .


Now for this statement from the post above,


Quote
“Again, The claims by Fran that the store name was changed to hide bad feedback is 100% false.  Let's go over it again for clarification.”


I never said it was done to get rid of BAD feedback.  I said it was to get rid of plane old feedback.  I started posting 3ABN irregularities in posts over at Club Adventist.


The store did change its name 4 times in less than  2 weeks.  I posted and told everyone to go look quickly because tomorrow it may change again!  I am not going to discuss about the other names.  I was told not to talk about it.  And I choose to follow instructions on some items.


All I can give is my word right now.  However, the name changes did work!  Feedback started disappearing.


Does anyone know why nan_don sold everything and started over?  I hear tell the new store sells only for them.  Did I hear correctly?


Also, nan_don has never been a store.  They sold for 3ABN until the Chances took over.  That is explained by the dates.


 http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=don_3abn&iid=-1&de=off&items=25

The 3ABN Store began 6/1/2001. But there is zero feedback until Sep-07-02 09:13.  There are three other feedbacks at random dates that did not get erased.  Where is all the feedback from 1998 to Sept 7,2002.  Since the feedback went to nan_don on May-15-02 19:30 


To Be Continued…
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Fran

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2008, 12:59:33 AM »

Quote
5. For FRAN. 
From Mr. Chance directly: 


The beginning of a store was a learning experience. Learning the best way to sell, what to sell, and what payment methods to take.  They had to learn about PayPal and its process.  In the beginning they accepted checks, money orders, credit card and then PayPal.


Sorry for splitting this paragraph.  I can only concentrate on one thing at a time and prefer to break it up in thoughts that are alike.


Ask Bruce when they started using PayPal.  He will tell you.  It was about 6 week after my post on Club Adventist addressing 3ABN problems I saw with them NOT using PayPal!


That was in 2005.  So they really are slow learners.  I will agree with that one.


 
Quote
After a time they found that buyers were taking an excessive amount of time to mail in checks and money orders so eventually, they quit taking those methods of payments.  Every month the invoices from eBay and PayPal are downloaded, printed out and given to the accounting department, along with copies of the actual sales, buyers name and address and when the item was sold and then shipped. All of these records are turned over to accounting every month.


Oops, this is not a good thing to post!  It is very bad!  The PayPal sales should be posted at the moment the confirmation is sent. If there is a shortage of employees, they should batch them by day, and get them posted DAILY!  This is a Cash Control issue.  It is very telling.  Ask them to fix this ASAP.  This is very, very bad!  The sales should be deposited daily into 3ABN from PayPal.  The daily print out is then matched with the daily deposits that come to your account at the point of sale!  The PayPal expense is posted when PayPal charges it.  The eBay/PayPal expenses should be looked at each month to see if you are loosing money!


This tells me that the funds are not deposited at the moment of sale.  This leaves the income to be tampered with.


This also tells me the check books are not balanced in a timely manner!


Quote
Credit card payments are not taken by the donations department but directly by the accounting department. Accounting is the number listed on ebay to call for cc payment.  Each item that is sold is then entered into the database that has the donor's information and constituent number. The item sold is recorded along with the date it was sold and the price it was sold for.  Those records are given to the Accounting dept every month so that the donor can be receipted for the sale of their item.


This is also wrong!  You are talking about Merchant accounts.  You have really hung yourself here Sam.  I am praying that you just misunderstood.  However, I believe this is what you have been told.  Merchant accounts create daily deposits!  They should be accounted for Daily!  Every day the sales should match the merchant account information.  They allow daily print outs!  I know.  I have handled Merchant Accounts (Plural) and PayPal sales.  I have also had to match each one to many checking accounts!  I have always balanced the check book daily by checking the bank accounts on a daily basis.  If you wait until the end of the month it can get out of hand and it is like hunting for a needle in a haystack!


This news is very disturbing to me.  Not much has changed.  From the reports about the symbolic check, I was hoping things had truly changed, but they have not!


Paragraph 5 To Be Continued…?
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Fran

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2008, 01:02:31 AM »

Quote
Rather complicated isn't it?  Quite a paper trail.  Having read all of the speculation and allegations concerning this (as well as many others) I made a point to ask the questions and received the answers in an open and concise manner.  I got these answers straight from the "horses mouth" as they say. How wrong you all have been about this and so many other things.


It is not complicated at all.  It is very simple.  If it is not done right, Accountants across America will complain.  So will the IRS.


Quote
Several board members were in attendance.  When I ask one (without trying to seem like I was just prying) if any of the subjects voted on, during the board meeting, resulted in any kind of tie vote.  This board member answered absolutely not and couldn't imagine where I would hear such false information. 

It was a fantastic and spirit filled Campmeeting.  I talked to many, many people there who couldn't wait until the Fall Campmeeting. That includes me!

I talked for a minute with Pastor Gilley. He said Danny had a nice break while building his house but he wanted to get him to spend a lot more time on the air. He said people are "demanding" it.  By the crowds surrounding him, Jim and lots of other 3abner's, I could see he was telling the truth.

Now you can all argue with your allegations and speculations. But most reasonable people are going to believe someone who was there, talked to these people and personally experienced the spirit filled Campmeeting; as opposed to your guesses, accusations, and rumors.   


I will reserve my opinions on this because I was not there.  Sam, we research things differently.  I back up what I say with visible facts.  I hate to disagree with you on these points because you have your own ways to find what is wrong and what is right.


I am praying for both of us to come together as one in Christ.  However, each of us has different backgrounds.  Far too many people have broken my trust.  It is hard for me to believe something on someone’s word.


I can join in your comments about this Campmeeting/Ten Commandment Weekend.


God is our Savior and deliverer.  Let us pray for the truth to be brought forward in concrete evidence so that all can see.


Accounting I know!  That is why I speak out so much about finances.  I accept the data on save-3abn.com as very real.


Sam, please ask those at 3ABN to bring forward their evidence so I can see to believe.  Jesus is coming soon and I don’t want for Jesus to bring everything forward.  Please let us join in payer for truth.


I love you as one with me in Christ.  If I have angered you, I am so sorry.  I did not do it with intent to harm or hurt.  I do get carried away sometimes with accounting.


I will reread to make sure everyone can understand what I am trying to say.


May God be with you and yours.


I have corrected spelling and added punctuation to the Post from Sam.  I hope this is OK with you Sam.

Fran
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Fran

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2008, 01:04:31 AM »

This is my last post about the finances at 3ABN.  I will be posting on the evidences brought forward to date.  Please do not PM or email me for more information.  I can not give it.
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Artiste

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 11:57:21 PM »

This is my last post about the finances at 3ABN.  I will be posting on the evidences brought forward to date.  Please do not PM or email me for more information.  I can not give it.

Looking forward to more information as it comes in, Fran!
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Fran

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2008, 10:22:55 PM »

Bump for review.
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Chrissie

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2008, 11:49:32 PM »

Quote
Rather complicated isn't it?  Quite a paper trail.  Having read all of the speculation and allegations concerning this (as well as many others) I made a point to ask the questions and received the answers in an open and concise manner.  I got these answers straight from the "horses mouth" as they say. How wrong you all have been about this and so many other things.


It is not complicated at all.  It is very simple.  If it is not done right, Accountants across America will complain.  So will the IRS.

Anyone with the elementary rudimentary knowledge of bookkeeping practices would understand that this was an absolute no-no. Books must balance each day. As 3abn hired attorneys and financial people to care for this area of their business, they will indeed, be held accountable. No business can get away with a lame excuse such as "I didn't know that wasn't the way to do it".
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Fran

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 03:02:01 AM »

I am bewildered why Sam would just tell the world what is actually happening at 3ABN.  This fact has me rattles to no end!  It is clear that Sam believes this is the proper way it is done in real life.  It is not.  Where are there accounting efficiency experts to set up Cash Control.  It could cause one to believe that it is intentionally done this way to be able to decide what is kept for personal use and what is reported as a sale to 3ABN Accounting.  The way 3ABN does this leaves a huge hole in cash flow.  I am of the opinion that this current procedure is this way for that very purpose.

Now, who is it that has sold 3ABN's equipment, but no longer does this under their personal account.  They stopped when I posted some facts on Club Adventist.  Who got the money from the sale?   Later, I will tell who this seller is/was and some of the things they sold.
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Eduard

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 07:41:49 AM »

Quote
Rather complicated isn't it?  Quite a paper trail.  Having read all of the speculation and allegations concerning this (as well as many others) I made a point to ask the questions and received the answers in an open and concise manner.  I got these answers straight from the "horses mouth" as they say. How wrong you all have been about this and so many other things.


It is not complicated at all.  It is very simple.  If it is not done right, Accountants across America will complain.  So will the IRS.

Anyone with the elementary rudimentary knowledge of bookkeeping practices would understand that this was an absolute no-no. Books must balance each day. As 3abn hired attorneys and financial people to care for this area of their business, they will indeed, be held accountable. No business can get away with a lame excuse such as "I didn't know that wasn't the way to do it".



Crissie,

It seems to me beyond belief that people who handle millions of dollars at 3ABN would not be familiar with the basic principle that the books have to be kept current, and every penny accounted for. I remember how careful I had to be about balancing the cash register at the ABC in Manhattan at the end of each work day.


Only people who cook the books want them out of balance. And, as evidence piles up, it seems that we are going to learn soon at what temperature the "good people" at 3ABN have roasted their books.

Eduard



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Cindy

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 07:57:25 AM »


I have visited the donations Barn in past campmeetings and talked to both of the Chances and found them friendly, open and honest about how all works in their department and the records etc.


The mistake being made here is that people are assuming that the monthly accounts being sent to the accounting department means that the donation department does not keep daily records and such. That is simply not true.

My brother is the head of shipping and receiving in a very large company and is responsible for keeping daily records in his department, but once a month he too has to do inventory and make print outs and send all records and copies and receipts etc to the accounting department.

I don't know what Fran is going on about... This is neither unusual nor wrong.
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Ozzie

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Re: eBay Sales Controversy?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2008, 04:20:35 PM »


I don't know what Fran is going on about... This is neither unusual nor wrong.

You just can't help yourself can you Ian? The nasty side has to come out ALWAYS.

Fran presents knowledge and facts. You present anger and defence of DS and 3abn, but can never back yourself up with evidence.
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Ozzie
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