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[Bob Pickle]

Read it all at Correspondence with Danny About Royalties.

Here's the difference. The State of Illinois had access to all our records.

I believe I read in court documents that 3ABN even refused to produce Form 990's to the Illinois Department of Revenue. How then could Danny have claimed that the State of Illinois had access to all 3ABN's records?

Will the day come when Danny claims that Gailon and I had access to all their records and yet couldn't find a thing, even when he's fighting tooth and nail to keep us from seeing anything?

I'm sure Jim Gilley wasn't thrilled when Gailon suggested last year that he might be soft on sin. But if he doesn't take a stand after all these revelations he will possibly get just that reputation.

[Cindy]

Read it all at Correspondence with Danny About Royalties.

Here's the difference. The State of Illinois had access to all our records.

I believe I read in court documents that 3ABN even refused to produce Form 990's to the Illinois Department of Revenue. How then could Danny have claimed that the State of Illinois had access to all 3ABN's records?

Will the day come when Danny claims that Gailon and I had access to all their records and yet couldn't find a thing, even when he's fighting tooth and nail to keep us from seeing anything?

I'm sure Jim Gilley wasn't thrilled when Gailon suggested last year that he might be soft on sin. But if he doesn't take a stand after all these revelations he will possibly get just that reputation.

Aren't the 990's available on line to anyone??

How is this kind of post or accusation helping Pickle's defense, or cause, or proving Gilley is soft on sin, or damaging his reputation unless you bite without proof?

Think about it...

[Snoopy]

No, they aren't.  They are available from certain websites like Guidestar if one has a paid membership.  I am surprised you haven't tried, Ian.  Besides, whether the forms are available on-line is irrelevant if 3ABN was supposed to produce them for a court case.

Read it all at Correspondence with Danny About Royalties.

Here's the difference. The State of Illinois had access to all our records.

I believe I read in court documents that 3ABN even refused to produce Form 990's to the Illinois Department of Revenue. How then could Danny have claimed that the State of Illinois had access to all 3ABN's records?

Will the day come when Danny claims that Gailon and I had access to all their records and yet couldn't find a thing, even when he's fighting tooth and nail to keep us from seeing anything?

I'm sure Jim Gilley wasn't thrilled when Gailon suggested last year that he might be soft on sin. But if he doesn't take a stand after all these revelations he will possibly get just that reputation.

Aren't the 990's available on line to anyone??

How is this kind of post or accusation helping Pickle's defense, or cause, or proving Gilley is soft on sin, or damaging his reputation unless you bite without proof?

Think about it...

[Bob Pickle]

Yep, here it is.

After losing their initial tax case, 3ABN asked for a rehearing and was denied that privilege by Judge Rowe on April 6, 2004.

She did admit into evidence the missing pages of their bylaws as they requested, but refused to admit the 990's as they requested. She noted on pp. 3 and 4 of her April 6 decision that the objection of the respondent and intervenors that 3ABN had refused to produce the 990's as requested in discovery requests and in a Supreme Court Rule 237 request.

It is clear from reading much of the rest of the material that the State of Illinois got to look at very, very little. Lovejoy presented two one-page summaries at the hearing, but I see no indication that the state ever had access to the data underlying the numbers on those two pages.

[Artiste]

Read it all at Correspondence with Danny About Royalties.

Here's the difference. The State of Illinois had access to all our records.

I believe I read in court documents that 3ABN even refused to produce Form 990's to the Illinois Department of Revenue. How then could Danny have claimed that the State of Illinois had access to all 3ABN's records?

Will the day come when Danny claims that Gailon and I had access to all their records and yet couldn't find a thing, even when he's fighting tooth and nail to keep us from seeing anything?

I'm sure Jim Gilley wasn't thrilled when Gailon suggested last year that he might be soft on sin. But if he doesn't take a stand after all these revelations he will possibly get just that reputation.

Under the caregory of being soft on sin--is it true what was stated in another thread that Jim Gilley planned to put Danny Shelton on TV much more this coming year?

[Fran]

If this does happen, this could be a direct sign that J Gilley is not God's chosen leader.  Let us pray for a revelation of God's Chosen leader.

[Habanero]

Throughout the Old Testament God had His chosen leaders. He also had his presence dwelling on the Most Holy place on the Ark of the Covenant which housed the ten commandments.

Upon the death of Jesus the curtain that veiled the Most Holy place was torn top to bottom. IMO, there were many things that changed at that point in time. Up until then God's glory was only present in a physical box that was housed in a physical temple. After that point in time, God's glory exists in the hearts of every person who is His child. All such hearts are an Ark of the Covenant and they all carry the law and the glory of God in them, and His law is written in their hearts in a very realistic way.

At the same time, I believe that the need for "chosen leaders" went away. We don't have to look to a man anymore, we only have to look to God. Danny, Jim, and any others who will purport to be God's "chosen leaders" are just people. They are not God, nor do they represent God or His authority. That is something that exists only in the hearts of His children. Just like the children of Israel wanted to have a "chosen leader" instead of just following God, so also do Adventists and everyone else. It is human nature. In the end, God is who He is, and no human can stand in His place.

If this does happen, this could be a direct sign that J Gilley is not God's chosen leader.  Let us pray for a revelation of God's Chosen leader.

[Snoopy]

Wow, Habanero!  What an excellent post!!  I totally agree with you!

Throughout the Old Testament God had His chosen leaders. He also had his presence dwelling on the Most Holy place on the Ark of the Covenant which housed the ten commandments.

Upon the death of Jesus the curtain that veiled the Most Holy place was torn top to bottom. IMO, there were many things that changed at that point in time. Up until then God's glory was only present in a physical box that was housed in a physical temple. After that point in time, God's glory exists in the hearts of every person who is His child. All such hearts are an Ark of the Covenant and they all carry the law and the glory of God in them, and His law is written in their hearts in a very realistic way.

At the same time, I believe that the need for "chosen leaders" went away. We don't have to look to a man anymore, we only have to look to God. Danny, Jim, and any others who will purport to be God's "chosen leaders" are just people. They are not God, nor do they represent God or His authority. That is something that exists only in the hearts of His children. Just like the children of Israel wanted to have a "chosen leader" instead of just following God, so also do Adventists and everyone else. It is human nature. In the end, God is who He is, and no human can stand in His place.

[Cindy]

Wow, Habanero!  What an excellent post!!  I totally agree with you!

Throughout the Old Testament God had His chosen leaders. He also had his presence dwelling on the Most Holy place on the Ark of the Covenant which housed the ten commandments.

Upon the death of Jesus the curtain that veiled the Most Holy place was torn top to bottom. IMO, there were many things that changed at that point in time. Up until then God's glory was only present in a physical box that was housed in a physical temple. After that point in time, God's glory exists in the hearts of every person who is His child. All such hearts are an Ark of the Covenant and they all carry the law and the glory of God in them, and His law is written in their hearts in a very realistic way.

At the same time, I believe that the need for "chosen leaders" went away. We don't have to look to a man anymore, we only have to look to God. Danny, Jim, and any others who will purport to be God's "chosen leaders" are just people. They are not God, nor do they represent God or His authority. That is something that exists only in the hearts of His children. Just like the children of Israel wanted to have a "chosen leader" instead of just following God, so also do Adventists and everyone else. It is human nature. In the end, God is who He is, and no human can stand in His place.

A president of a ministry of God is only one among many ministries of God, he is not "the Leader" of all, nor did one single defender of 3abn suggest such! Habenero is arguing here with a critic of 3Abn, (FRAN) AND SHE IS SOMEWHAT CONFUSED, AS APPARENTLY IS HE...

WHAT Has been posted is also confused from the Adventist perspective here...

I agree that the apostle Paul reveals that what was once minsistered in tables of stone is now ministered in the fleshly tables of our hearts, thus the law on stone which could only condemn and identify sin, is now a promise writen in our hearts, one which our minister in the true sanctuary(Jesus) brings to pass from the inside out...


BUT-- how can we all be arks of the covenant? answer: we aren't and can't be!

The ark of the covenant was patterned according to the vision given to Moses,  of the true sanctuary which God pitched and not man... Paul is clear about that in the book of Hebrews.

The ark of the covenant with it's mercy seat represented the throne of God!!!  All in the old covenant sanctuary service was patterned after the true. WE ARE NOT GOD"S THRONE!

And John the Revelator was shown the real ark of the covenant in heaven!

The law is in it, for God's throne is founded on his law, it has a mercy seat for he rules and judges mercifully.

The curtain was torn in the earthly sanctuary, for the old covenant sanctuary service was a shadow, pointing forward to and revealing our salvation, and Christ's ministry on earth and after he ascended to the heavenly sanctuary. Now we have direct access to the throne of God through HIM,  THROUGH HIS FLESH GIVEN FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US, so Christ Jesus, our high Priest is ministering in heaven right now for his people, and mediating between God and man.

Let us not get confused here about what God's word reveals and teaches.

[Habanero]

WE ARE NOT GOD"S THRONE!

A sad statement. If He lives in us then our hearts are His throne in my opinion.

[Fran]

Excuse me?  I guess I better not go take nap around here.  What part of this post you submitted applies to me?  I have never said a word about the ark of the covenant or man in the throne of God.  Re-read what I said!  Surely my one line post did not say all of this!  Forgive my not understanding where you got all of this from my post.  Please stop.  Others reading may actually think i said those things.  Please post the part that applies just to me for my clarification.  I am confused.  Also please do not call me a 3ABN Critic.  I love 3ABN and am praying for it to succeed.

Your sister in Christ.

A president of a ministry of God is only one among many ministries of God, he is not "the Leader" of all, nor did one single defender of 3abn suggest such! Habenero is arguing here with a critic of 3Abn, (FRAN) AND SHE IS SOMEWHAT CONFUSED, AS APPARENTLY IS HE...

WHAT Has been posted is also confused from the Adventist perspective here...

I agree that the apostle Paul reveals that what was once ministered in tables of stone is now ministered in the fleshly tables of our hearts, thus the law on stone which could only condemn and identify sin, is now a promise written in our hearts, one which our minister in the true sanctuary(Jesus) brings to pass from the inside out...


BUT-- how can we all be arks of the covenant? answer: we aren't and can't be!

The ark of the covenant was patterned according to the vision given to Moses,  of the true sanctuary which God pitched and not man... Paul is clear about that in the book of Hebrews.

The ark of the covenant with it's mercy seat represented the throne of God!!!  All in the old covenant sanctuary service was patterned after the true. WE ARE NOT GOD"S THRONE!

And John the Regulator was shown the real ark of the covenant in heaven!

The law is in it, for God's throne is founded on his law, it has a mercy seat for he rules and judges mercifully.

The curtain was torn in the earthly sanctuary, for the old covenant sanctuary service was a shadow, pointing forward to and revealing our salvation, and Christ's ministry on earth and after he ascended to the heavenly sanctuary. Now we have direct access to the throne of God through HIM,  THROUGH HIS FLESH GIVEN FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US, so Christ Jesus, our high Priest is ministering in heaven right now for his people, and mediating between God and man.

Let us not get confused here about what God's word reveals and teaches.

[Cindy]

Fran, the only reference to you was that the post I was replying to was written in response to your statement here:
"f this does happen, this could be a direct sign that J Gilley is not God's chosen leader.  Let us pray for a revelation of God's Chosen leader."

Most of us do not see the President of a ministry, whether that be Danny Shelton, Jim Gilley, Doug Bachelor, Steven Boer etc as God's chosen leader of us all such as Moses was.  We see Jesus as the Head and chosen leader and all else under him and equal though having different roles and jobs.

Now you may not have meant it that way, but I wanted to explain so your words and a false meaning was not applied to any of us.

I was simply trying to clarify that, as often the defenders of 3ABN are accused of worshipping Danny, or fawning all over him and his every word. That is simply not true, I consider him one of the brethren and support him and his calling as I would and do many others. They however are not under constant attack by you all right now..

The rest of my post and words were addressing what Habenero wrote as it was his post I was replying to.

Clearer?

Also I know you do not see yourself as a critic of 3ABN, but when you post your criticisms or find fault with what they do and say, such as financially or regarding Linda etc. the result is that others regard you as that. I'm sorry.

Blessings,
Ian

Excuse me?  I guess I better not go take nap around here.  What part of this post you submitted applies to me?  I have never said a word about the ark of the covenant or man in the throne of God.  Re-read what I said!  Surely my one line post did not say all of this!  Forgive my not understanding where you got all of this from my post.  Please stop.  Others reading may actually think i said those things.  Please post the part that applies just to me for my clarification.  I am confused.  Also please do not call me a 3ABN Critic.  I love 3ABN and am praying for it to succeed.

Your sister in Christ.

A president of a ministry of God is only one among many ministries of God, he is not "the Leader" of all, nor did one single defender of 3abn suggest such! Habenero is arguing here with a critic of 3Abn, (FRAN) AND SHE IS SOMEWHAT CONFUSED, AS APPARENTLY IS HE...

WHAT Has been posted is also confused from the Adventist perspective here...

I agree that the apostle Paul reveals that what was once ministered in tables of stone is now ministered in the fleshly tables of our hearts, thus the law on stone which could only condemn and identify sin, is now a promise written in our hearts, one which our minister in the true sanctuary(Jesus) brings to pass from the inside out...


BUT-- how can we all be arks of the covenant? answer: we aren't and can't be!

The ark of the covenant was patterned according to the vision given to Moses,  of the true sanctuary which God pitched and not man... Paul is clear about that in the book of Hebrews.

The ark of the covenant with it's mercy seat represented the throne of God!!!  All in the old covenant sanctuary service was patterned after the true. WE ARE NOT GOD"S THRONE!

And John the Regulator was shown the real ark of the covenant in heaven!

The law is in it, for God's throne is founded on his law, it has a mercy seat for he rules and judges mercifully.

The curtain was torn in the earthly sanctuary, for the old covenant sanctuary service was a shadow, pointing forward to and revealing our salvation, and Christ's ministry on earth and after he ascended to the heavenly sanctuary. Now we have direct access to the throne of God through HIM,  THROUGH HIS FLESH GIVEN FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US, so Christ Jesus, our high Priest is ministering in heaven right now for his people, and mediating between God and man.

Let us not get confused here about what God's word reveals and teaches.

[Fran]

Thank you for your response.

You comment, "I consider him one of the brethren and support him and his calling ...".  The part about his calling is what I was talking about.  I believe God calls every leader of every ministry!  Does God's will happen all the time?  No.  Satan also calls his leaders.  We are all given a choice as to how we will respond to each leader.  How can we, as laypeople, be able to tell what is "God's calling, or Satan's calling?"

Saul was God's chosen king (leader).  However, as time went by, he became proud and did not listen when he heard David was to be the next king (leader)  His heart hardened, and it began to show he was not dong God's will.  In fact, it led him to try to kill David.

I am saying that God has a plan, but because of our free will, many times we place our personal choice into a leadership positions.  I believe Danny was called to build 3ABN.  From the evidence I have seen in documents on http://Save-3ABN.com and from my research of finances and accounting practices at 3ABN, I can say that, in my opinion, it is time to place someone in the leadership role that will see that things are done as they should be.  ASI requires it.  The IRS requires it.  Now, the donors in the pews are seeing things as they actually are.  By their fruits we are to decide if things are right or wrong.  Now, 3ABN's fruits are good.  Souls are hearing the gospel.  This is just as we expect.  However, the real leader is in question for his 1995-present behaviour.  This is the part that is reflecting bad fruit.  The financial situation at 3ABN is not transparent nor is it done in a Godly manner.  I feel much is lacking.

When Jim Gilley came on board, I hoped he would get some backbone and take action to clean up the 3ABN mess.  Jim has been doing a great job, but is lacking in one thing I feel.  He is not the leader of 3ABN, Danny Shelton still is in control.  I have been deeply concerned about this matter.  It is time for the "mantel" to be taken from Danny and placed on God's choice of a leader.  We will be able to see if God's choice is real by their fruits. 

John C Maxwell is the renowned author of the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership.  You can get the book, audio, CD at Amazon, or you can go to http://injoy.com to see all he has on Leadership and Teams excelling.  There is on Law he calls the "Law of the Lid."    Each person has leadership abilities.  Their abilities decides the capacity in which they are most effective in the leadership ladder.

Some are great leaders of small groups, but will not succeed in larger groups.  Pastors are anywhere on the leadership ladder.  Some can handle very large congregations and others serve better at the medium level of leadership.


when you have a church and it is growing, the grown will eventually hit the leaders "Lid"  That leader has been used up to his capacity.  When the lid is reached, growth halts and things become stagnant.  God uses this to say, We need a leader with a higher "lid" (Capacity).  This is why preachers move from here to there.  Then of course we know there are times they need to get out of their situation because they have really made a real mess of things.

Danny has reached his lid!  The next leader needs a higher "lid".  Jim Gilley has that.  But he is lacking in the other 20 Laws.  Jim's presence is very important right now.  He is new and contributes to the health of 3ABN.  However, he is going to be paying the price for not taking care of past and present mistakes. 

I am not a 3ABN critic, Ian.  I want 3ABN to thrive and survive with all my heart.  It can be a greater light to the world.  Before that can happen, the financial affairs much be set straight.  That is what I am about.  Change, not destruction.

Get the book by John C Maxwell, it will change your life.  He is not Adventist by the way.

Later, your sister in Christ,
Fran

Fran, the only reference to you was that the post I was replying to was written in response to your statement here:
"f this does happen, this could be a direct sign that J Gilley is not God's chosen leader.  Let us pray for a revelation of God's Chosen leader."

Most of us do not see the President of a ministry, whether that be Danny Shelton, Jim Gilley, Doug Bachelor, Steven Boer etc as God's chosen leader of us all such as Moses was.  We see Jesus as the Head and chosen leader and all else under him and equal though having different roles and jobs.

Now you may not have meant it that way, but I wanted to explain so your words and a false meaning was not applied to any of us.

I was simply trying to clarify that, as often the defenders of 3ABN are accused of worshipping Danny, or fawning all over him and his every word. That is simply not true, I consider him one of the brethren and support him and his calling as I would and do many others. They however are not under constant attack by you all right now..

The rest of my post and words were addressing what Habenero wrote as it was his post I was replying to.

Clearer?

Also I know you do not see yourself as a critic of 3ABN, but when you post your criticisms or find fault with what they do and say, such as financially or regarding Linda etc. the result is that others regard you as that. I'm sorry.

Blessings,
Ian

Excuse me?  I guess I better not go take nap around here.  What part of this post you submitted applies to me?  I have never said a word about the ark of the covenant or man in the throne of God.  Re-read what I said!  Surely my one line post did not say all of this!  Forgive my not understanding where you got all of this from my post.  Please stop.  Others reading may actually think i said those things.  Please post the part that applies just to me for my clarification.  I am confused.  Also please do not call me a 3ABN Critic.  I love 3ABN and am praying for it to succeed.

Your sister in Christ.

A president of a ministry of God is only one among many ministries of God, he is not "the Leader" of all, nor did one single defender of 3abn suggest such! Habenero is arguing here with a critic of 3Abn, (FRAN) AND SHE IS SOMEWHAT CONFUSED, AS APPARENTLY IS HE...

WHAT Has been posted is also confused from the Adventist perspective here...

I agree that the apostle Paul reveals that what was once ministered in tables of stone is now ministered in the fleshly tables of our hearts, thus the law on stone which could only condemn and identify sin, is now a promise written in our hearts, one which our minister in the true sanctuary(Jesus) brings to pass from the inside out...


BUT-- how can we all be arks of the covenant? answer: we aren't and can't be!

The ark of the covenant was patterned according to the vision given to Moses,  of the true sanctuary which God pitched and not man... Paul is clear about that in the book of Hebrews.

The ark of the covenant with it's mercy seat represented the throne of God!!!  All in the old covenant sanctuary service was patterned after the true. WE ARE NOT GOD"S THRONE!

And John the Regulator was shown the real ark of the covenant in heaven!

The law is in it, for God's throne is founded on his law, it has a mercy seat for he rules and judges mercifully.

The curtain was torn in the earthly sanctuary, for the old covenant sanctuary service was a shadow, pointing forward to and revealing our salvation, and Christ's ministry on earth and after he ascended to the heavenly sanctuary. Now we have direct access to the throne of God through HIM,  THROUGH HIS FLESH GIVEN FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US, so Christ Jesus, our high Priest is ministering in heaven right now for his people, and mediating between God and man.

Let us not get confused here about what God's word reveals and teaches.