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[Freeindeed]

They were pierced for our iniquity and transgression.  Jesus literally became sin for us so that he could make us righteous before God.  Hands get no dirtier than that.

In Christ alone...

This means what in terms of what we are to do concerning forgiveness by those that are guilty of harming others,or the path the injured party must take??  Not only for their own emotional well being,but both for their own salvation

Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross. 

[bonnie]

Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross. 

So is this your answer,"we have all sinned"?  Leave all as it is because all are guilty

Would you give this response to someone coming to you ,explaining a great wrong he had done and wanting to know what he needed to do??
Don't worry about it,WE are the ones guilty of harming others

[Freeindeed]

So is this your answer,"we have all sinned"?  Leave all as it is because all are guilty

No.

Would you give this response to someone coming to you ,explaining a great wrong he had done and wanting to know what he needed to do??
Don't worry about it,WE are the ones guilty of harming others

I don't understand the motive behind your questions...and why do you have such a resistance to forgiving?  What happened?

In Christ alone...

[bonnie]

Don't worry about it,WE are the ones guilty of harming others

I don't understand the motive behind your questions...and why do you have such a resistance to forgiving?  What happened?

Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross
[/quote]


There is no motive. I am not oppessed to forgiveness, there is nothing wrong with that,and everything for it.
I have not said one word to indicate that is so.

I wonder about the motives of those that concentrate on one side of an issue,and generally starting at the end.
It is not a "he hit firstso he has to make it right" sort of issue with me.

It is simply you and many others begin wth a victim, someone that has been hurt or treated grossly unfairly. All scripture recited deals with only one part of the issue and leaves the rest out. Why???

Is the guilty not as important and worthy of so much preaching on the subject? Is the same concern expressed for someone guilty of something

Is the concern of salvation for either party real ?? The wronged party must certainly learn to forgive. It can take some time but they need to do so. You have posted on that more than once. There are those that have been doing same for years.
Do you have the same care for the salvation that those that have done harm,especiallyserious harm. Life altering harm? Or don't they matter as "all have sinned" so what is the big deal.

Someone assaults me,I am told to forgive. After all everyone has sinned
The party that assaulted me is told "All Have Sinned", we will write your sin quietly in the sand

The quilty party is only to happy with that and really is quite free to do continue. After all, the one he assaulted was told         "All Have Sinned"                 

How do you suppose it sounds and it seems like it not only sounds but is a one way responsibilty and most have only the wronged party that is their concern
The man that beats his wife will be very happy to hear "We have all sinned.....We are going to quietly write those sins in the sand as he listens to his wife being told .You must not be angry and "you are no better than he"

And Yes before you go there I know all are of equal concern to God
Simple question, why tackle the end of the problem before the beginning?

Let's do this one more time before you try to ascribe motives again. I have no motive other than this is something that has always baffled me.

It never seems to fail that the man(general) that beats his wife or robs a bank never gets this sermon of foreness. The forgiveness he must seek. The sermon is on the abused wife and banker instead. Others rushing in to make sure they know that,
That is either no cares about the one that must seek forgiveness or it is covered under "we have all sinned" umbrella
While the wronged party is not

[GrammieT]

Dear Bonnie and Ozzie:

This is just my take on this subject, not an answer per se, but a suggestion to those people who concentrate so heavily on the victim and how he/she must forgive. 

When you have dealt with the perpetrator guilty of the abuse and their responsibility to ask for forgiveness as they acknowledge the gravity of their actions and the pain, both the physical and/or the emotional, then and ONLY THEN do you have the even the suggestion of a right to require the victim and/or their family or the church family to forgive.  And that 'right' is questionable at best!

Frankly, I have been appalled at those who have the temerity to suggest that you and Ozzie and the others are out of line with your firm desire to deal with this subject in the Adventist Church.  It is l-o-o-o-ng overdue, period!  I am in total agreement with all of you.   And I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Dr. Charles Wittschiebe, the founder (I think) of the Pastoral Counselling Department in the Seminary when they came to Berrien Springs, were still alive he would have been one of the most vocal in helping us deal with this problem and we would be much further along to having a reasonable solution to it.

GrammieT 

[Freeindeed]

PLEASE SEEK TO UNDERSTAND BEFORE ATTACKING...THANKS!

It seems to me that this topic is on a tangent on this whole site.  I don't know what happened in the discussions of the past, but I disagree with the conclusions some have reached with regards to forgiveness and who should forgive who, and who shouldn't forgive who, and who should or shouldn't be able to say whether forgiveness is appropriate in a given situation, etc., at least as far as anyone who is a Christ-follower is concerned.  I believe forgiveness is appropriate ALL the time, no matter which supposed side of the victim-abused/perpetrator-abuser 'scale' one may be on.

Someone explain to me how you can understand the Gospel and then come to the conclusion that we don't have to be forgiven of our GRAVE sin against God, AND/OR that we don't have to forgive others as God has forgiven us through Christ?  What sin against ANY of us personally as Christ-followers excuses us from forgiving as we have been forgiven?  And what part of forgiving comes from the 'goodness' of our own hearts?  Do any of you believe forgiveness originates from us?  The Gospel (true Gospel) CLEARLY shows the need for forgiveness across the board, or on both 'sides' of the fence.  Is there some clause somewhere that excuses Christians who have been abused in some form from the Holy Spirit producing forgiveness in them?  Should Christ NOT have asked the Father to forgive those who put him on the cross?  Or did the abuse Jesus face NOT measure up to the abuse we face today?

Now, for someone who isn't connected to Christ, has not been saved by grace through faith in Christ alone, I would expect that person to take that position (not having even the suggestion of a right to require anyone to forgive).  Not forgiving would be the natural way of the world.  However, with the Holy Spirit living IN us producing HIS good fruit, and HIS good works we don't operate by the world's standard.  It's not even what WE 'do', rather it is what God does through believers supernaturally.  If we're unwilling to forgive then maybe we don't have a clue what it is we've been forgiven of.

Finally, I would appreciate those of you who disagree to address the words of MY post if you disagree with ME.  I believe I've caught some shrapnel from discussions I was never a part of.  So if you're going to virtually slap me, slap me for MY posts.  For example...I've read half a dozen times already that SOME PEOPLE equate ANGER with a lack of or unwillingness to forgive...THAT DIDN'T COME FROM ANY OF MY POSTS!  Anger, while it needs to be kept in check, is a NORMAL part of HEALING and grieving.  So take that up with those who have expressed that thought!  I have not expressed it, nor will I.  Address MY words, not YOUR assumptions.  I have experienced significant loss and significant abuse and have experienced healing and release from the bondage associated with both.  You can deal with your own issues in whatever way you wish.  For me (and many others I meet with) forgiving those involved played a major role in my own personal healing, even though it often took TIME to experience the benefit. 

For those who have never experienced this I wouldn't expect them to be able to understand.  But just because they haven't forgiven and been released doesn't take away from the Biblical counsel to forgive others just as we have been forgiven.  If we don't feel we 'need' to forgive others then maybe we don't realize the death sentence that has already been pronounced on our own heads and what we have been forgiven of.  I deserve death, yet Jesus has forgiven me COMPLETELY, with his own blood!  I don't have any excuses NOT to forgive those who backstab me or wrong me or abuse me.  What are your excuses and how do they add up to the Gospel?  Please, enlighten me and PLEASE, USE SCRIPTURE!  My opinion means NOTHING, except that it lines up with Scripture.

In CHRIST alone...

[Ozzie]

PLEASE SEEK TO UNDERSTAND BEFORE ATTACKING...THANKS!

It seems to me that this topic is on a tangent on this whole site.  I don't know what happened in the discussions of the past, but I disagree with the conclusions some have reached with regards to forgiveness and who should forgive who, and who shouldn't forgive who, and who should or shouldn't be able to say whether forgiveness is appropriate in a given situation, etc., at least as far as anyone who is a Christ-follower is concerned.  I believe forgiveness is appropriate ALL the time, no matter which supposed side of the victim-abused/perpetrator-abuser 'scale' one may be on.

Someone explain to me how you can understand the Gospel and then come to the conclusion that we don't have to be forgiven of our GRAVE sin against God, AND/OR that we don't have to forgive others as God has forgiven us through Christ?  What sin against ANY of us personally as Christ-followers excuses us from forgiving as we have been forgiven?  And what part of forgiving comes from the 'goodness' of our own hearts?  Do any of you believe forgiveness originates from us?  The Gospel (true Gospel) CLEARLY shows the need for forgiveness across the board, or on both 'sides' of the fence.  Is there some clause somewhere that excuses Christians who have been abused in some form from the Holy Spirit producing forgiveness in them?  Should Christ NOT have asked the Father to forgive those who put him on the cross?  Or did the abuse Jesus face NOT measure up to the abuse we face today?

Now, for someone who isn't connected to Christ, has not been saved by grace through faith in Christ alone, I would expect that person to take that position (not having even the suggestion of a right to require anyone to forgive).  Not forgiving would be the natural way of the world.  However, with the Holy Spirit living IN us producing HIS good fruit, and HIS good works we don't operate by the world's standard.  It's not even what WE 'do', rather it is what God does through believers supernaturally.  If we're unwilling to forgive then maybe we don't have a clue what it is we've been forgiven of.

Finally, I would appreciate those of you who disagree to address the words of MY post if you disagree with ME.  I believe I've caught some shrapnel from discussions I was never a part of.  So if you're going to virtually slap me, slap me for MY posts.  For example...I've read half a dozen times already that SOME PEOPLE equate ANGER with a lack of or unwillingness to forgive...THAT DIDN'T COME FROM ANY OF MY POSTS!  Anger, while it needs to be kept in check, is a NORMAL part of HEALING and grieving.  So take that up with those who have expressed that thought!  I have not expressed it, nor will I.  Address MY words, not YOUR assumptions.  I have experienced significant loss and significant abuse and have experienced healing and release from the bondage associated with both.  You can deal with your own issues in whatever way you wish.  For me (and many others I meet with) forgiving those involved played a major role in my own personal healing, even though it often took TIME to experience the benefit. 

For those who have never experienced this I wouldn't expect them to be able to understand.  But just because they haven't forgiven and been released doesn't take away from the Biblical counsel to forgive others just as we have been forgiven.  If we don't feel we 'need' to forgive others then maybe we don't realize the death sentence that has already been pronounced on our own heads and what we have been forgiven of.  I deserve death, yet Jesus has forgiven me COMPLETELY, with his own blood!  I don't have any excuses NOT to forgive those who backstab me or wrong me or abuse me.  What are your excuses and how do they add up to the Gospel?  Please, enlighten me and PLEASE, USE SCRIPTURE!  My opinion means NOTHING, except that it lines up with Scripture.

In CHRIST alone...

Freeindeed
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see and none so deaf as those who do not want to hear. This has nothing to do with any 'cross-fire' you are referring to. It is all about understanding the plight of a 'victim', where the last thing they need is for anyone to be jamming Scripture down their throats, in inappropriate situations.

Just take this scenario. Spending just one night talking with a young woman aged 27 who has been on the streets since the age of 9. Her parents were killed and she went to live with her sister and b-i-l, who sexually abused her till she ran away; aged 11. As she went on from one devastating relationship to another; one abusive relationship to another, what lessons about life do you think she learnt? Do you think that even someone who cared about this person could get close to even sit beside her? Not on your life? It took weeks to gain confidence enough that another female even could sit on the same garden seat as this young woman. So, where is the place to push Scripture in cases like this?

Did Jesus attend to people's physical needs first or did He ram Scripture down their necks first? Should we not follow His example in all things?

The scenario that I have mentioned, is but one horrifying story that I am very familiar with. There are so many more than you just wouldn't even understand, as demonstrated by your self-righteous, pragmatic stance that the ONLY way is to show people Jesus. We need to show compassion and show people we care. We need to LISTEN instead of telling people how they should feel. In that way, people see Jesus THROUGH us. Later, much later, it is appropriate to start talking about Christ and forgiveness.

Trouble is, so many SDA's won't sit in the gutter and LISTEN and talk with those who desperately need to see some practical Christianity. They are so judgmental and have already made up in their minds, how a person has come to be in such circumstances. Have you never heard that we need to make friends with the people, so that they are prepared to listen to what we have to say about Jesus. Do you know what REAL LISTENING is all about?

For many people, their role model of what God would be like, has come from their own father or father-figure, which has been in a very abusive relationship. So honestly, how do you think these people would relate to God as their 'Heavenly Father'? You need to stop and think about some of things before you make value judgements and decide that your way is the only way.

Not so very different to those sitting in the pews, who face abuse at home continually, while the 'head of the house' masquerades as a 'Christian Leader' to the outside world. The family of such people NEED love, compassion, kindness and understanding. The forgiveness bit comes way down the track. Many need to get their priorities in order.

[Freeindeed]

Freeindeed
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see and none so deaf as those who do not want to hear. This has nothing to do with any 'cross-fire' you are referring to. It is all about understanding the plight of a 'victim', where the last thing they need is for anyone to be jamming Scripture down their throats, in inappropriate situations.

Nobody is even using Scripture because when we do the posts are erased, so nobody here is getting ANY Scripture jammed down their throats.

Just take this scenario. Spending just one night talking with a young woman aged 27 who has been on the streets since the age of 9. Her parents were killed and she went to live with her sister and b-i-l, who sexually abused her till she ran away; aged 11. As she went on from one devastating relationship to another; one abusive relationship to another, what lessons about life do you think she learnt? Do you think that even someone who cared about this person could get close to even sit beside her? Not on your life? It took weeks to gain confidence enough that another female even could sit on the same garden seat as this young woman. So, where is the place to push Scripture in cases like this?

Again, nobody is 'pushing' Scripture.  We're attempting to 'discuss' forgiveness in the Doctrinal Discussion area and there is still a resistance to even bringing Scripture to the discussion.  Maybe we should rely on our superior human wisdom and understanding...

Did Jesus attend to people's physical needs first or did He ram Scripture down their necks first? Should we not follow His example in all things?

He did both.  To those who knew better (religious people) he was completely in their face.  How far do you want to take the 'follow His example' thing?  All the way to the cross?  Jesus forgave there as well!

The scenario that I have mentioned, is but one horrifying story that I am very familiar with.

I agree.  I could give you dozens and dozens of stories.  One of our ministries is Celebrate Recovery and I am continually amazed how God reaches across seemingly impossible barriers to bring people to healing and recovery, and then uses them to reach others in similar or related situations.  Addictions, abuse, eating disorders, cutting, homelessness, brokenness, spiritual abuse, loss, etc., everything we can imagine going on around us ALL the time and most so-called Christians sit back and bury their heads in the sand or are completely unaware and unengaged.

There are so many more than you just wouldn't even understand,

Actually I completely understand...

as demonstrated by your self-righteous, pragmatic stance that the ONLY way is to show people Jesus.

Look, I'm not making personal attacks against you or anyone else...

What MORE would you show beyond Christ?

We need to show compassion and show people we care.

I agree.

We need to LISTEN instead of telling people how they should feel.

I agree.

In that way, people see Jesus THROUGH us.

I agree.

Later, much later, it is appropriate to start talking about Christ and forgiveness.

According to what or who?  Would it be too much to ask for Scripture to support your assertion?  What about the Gospel? 

Trouble is, so many SDA's won't sit in the gutter and LISTEN and talk with those who desperately need to see some practical Christianity. They are so judgmental and have already made up in their minds, how a person has come to be in such circumstances.

I agree.  For the most part that has been my experience with SDA's also.  There are very few SDA counselors I could confidently make a referral to.

Have you never heard that we need to make friends with the people, so that they are prepared to listen to what we have to say about Jesus.

Yes I have!  I spent some time with Mark Finley before he wrote his book about befriending people in order to bring them to SDAism.  The book ultimately had a section for virtually every Christian group out there.

Do you know what REAL LISTENING is all about?

Yes, I do.  I 'sit in the gutter' with people every week.  How many stories would you like?  I won't give you ANY where Christ-like forgiveness isn't a part of the solution, because I don't know of any.  I only have a 15 year perspective in full-time ministry and counseling, but I've never seen complete healing occur without forgiveness.

For many people, their role model of what God would be like, has come from their own father or father-figure, which has been in a very abusive relationship. So honestly, how do you think these people would relate to God as their 'Heavenly Father'? You need to stop and think about some of things before you make value judgements and decide that your way is the only way.

While this is true for some (I'm not comfortable with your use of 'many'), it only means that they need to have their paradigm changed.  GOD chose that analogy...just like he took the analogy of marriage, a snake, a business owner, etc.  I don't believe in finding all the excuses possible to enslave people into a 'victim' mentality.  Too much psycho-babble today ENABLES victim mentality.  Scripture does not agree!

Not so very different to those sitting in the pews, who face abuse at home continually, while the 'head of the house' masquerades as a 'Christian Leader' to the outside world. The family of such people NEED love, compassion, kindness and understanding. The forgiveness bit comes way down the track. Many need to get their priorities in order.

I guess that ALL has to do with what sect or denomination you give your loyalty to.  As a pastor of a 1200+ attending member church I INTENTIONALLY have MORE THAN ONE accountability partner.  They ask the hard questions and know me inside and out.  I do the same for them.  It helps to reduce the 'masquerading' you make reference to, which I found to be rampant in the SDA system.  We take intentional steps to toward Godly accountability WAY before we ever encounter others asking for help and seeking reconcilliation.

What is your pastor doing to be accountable?  What do you personally do?

[Daryl Fawcett]

As this topic is in the Doctrinal Discussions forum of Advent Talk, the use or non-use of Scripture isn't an issue here, therefore, everybody in this topic within this particular forum of Advent Talk is free to use Scripture at will.

[bonnie]

Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross. 

I have been out of town so will respond as I read

This is something that is very harmful when dealing with someone that is really struggling with an issue of abuse,past or recent.

What you say is true but loading someone down with a statement like this when someone is trying to make sense of what has happened to them really does nothing but sink someone that is desperately trying to stay afloat.

We are all guilty of sinning,but not all sin is equal. Many have said all sin is regarded the same and personally I do not believe that to be true. Any sin that we don't want to let go of, no matter how small, can lead to a loss of salvation.
All share equal importance to God,not all will share the identical punishment.


2 Co 5:10 does not say to me all are guilty on the same level and it does lead me to believe that some will be judged more harshly than others.

When someone is really struggling,sometimes trying to cope with the abuse they have endured and you say to them......Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'.  It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross. 

 Have you any idea how that is perceived by the one you are dealing with? In time and with help and understanding this is something they will need to deal with and hopefully reach that time when they can truly forgive. Throwing that out as a solution to the whole problem does nothing to help someone cope and in time forgive.

[bonnie]

Dear Bonnie and Ozzie:

This is just my take on this subject, not an answer per SE, but a suggestion to those people who concentrate so heavily on the victim and how he/she must forgive. 

When you have dealt with the perpetrator guilty of the abuse and their responsibility to ask for forgiveness as they acknowledge the gravity of their actions and the pain, both the physical and/or the emotional, then and ONLY THEN do you have the even the suggestion of a right to require the victim and/or their family or the church family to forgive.  And that 'right' is questionable at best!

Frankly, I have been appalled at those who have the temerity to suggest that you and Ozzie and the others are out of line with your firm desire to deal with this subject in the Adventist Church.  It is l-o-o-o-ng overdue, period!  I am in total agreement with all of you.   And I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Dr. Charles Wittschiebe, the founder (I think) of the Pastoral Counselling Department in the Seminary when they came to Berrien Springs, were still alive he would have been one of the most vocal in helping us deal with this problem and we would be much further along to having a reasonable solution to it.

GrammieT 

When you have dealt with the perpetrator guilty of the abuse and their responsibility to ask for forgiveness as they acknowledge the gravity of their actions and the pain, both the physical and/or the emotional, then and ONLY THEN do you have the even the suggestion of a right to require the victim and/or their family or the church family to forgive.  And that 'right' is questionable at best!


This is so important...... No one has the right to forgive on behalf of an injured party. No ONE
Forgiveness will not come from someone preaching at them, or rattling off bible verses.

I am going to give some statements I and others have been told on this subject. Hopefully you will take the time to consider instead of assuming that I and others are opposed to forgiveness or following scripture.

A small child was molested by a pastor- Family was told not to cry over spilled milk and they needed to forgive.

A married woman was groped and fondled by the pastor. Solution was forgiveness.We have all sinned

A teenage girl was "seduced" (to me this is rape) by the teacher, The girl was promiscuous and the family needed to forgive the pastor.
As recent as a couple of months ago on another forum concerning the female teacher that "seduced" a young teen male,the statement,Well if he suffered any emotional problems from this, it was the mother's fault. It would depend on the way she handled it. Everyone just needed to forgive, after all we have all sinned.

In a discussion concerning the Green River serial killer and his capture, We have all sinned and he is no worse than anyone else. Forgiveness.

My sons ordeal, Forgive, after all there were good things this predator pastor had done,We have all sinned.

Not once has the guilty even surfaced as first or in anyway except for the injured party to forgive.

What I have been told and read for years and now by a few here it is forgiveness by the injured party.


Before we launch into forgiveness mode,if this were your child what would you have wanted to hear.?A  small child was molested by a pastor- Family was told not to cry over spilled milk and they needed to forgive.


Why would you go from abuse to forgiveness. Forgiveness by the victim. Not forgiveness asked for by the abuser?

Would you honestly be so blind as to believe that a child and their family could cope with that kind of advice first and only?

Same for all other examples.

Forgiveness is 100% biblical. For the emotional health of the victim to say nothing of eternal life it is something they need to accept and be able to give.

By not addressing first and effectively where needed and possible,the guilty party,and going straight to the victim and their responsibility,you are doing your best to see the victim cannot reach that point. The ones that learn to deal with and forgive, mostly do so in spite of all the forgiveness preacher's, not because.


What gets done with this subject is no different than a heart surgeon, telling his patients not to worry about diet and exercise,he will fix them with a heart by-pass.
Most in the SDA denomination wish to wait till there is a victim and then use the magic wand of forgiveness(on their part) to make them healthy again.

I wish there was someway to express to you the damage that some of you do, and it is all done biblically

[bonnie]

PLEASE SEEK TO UNDERSTAND BEFORE ATTACKING...THANKS!

This would be well for you to consider as well


It seems to me that this topic is on a tangent on this whole site.  I don't know what happened in the discussions of the past, but I disagree with the conclusions some have reached with regards to forgiveness and who should forgive who, and who shouldn't forgive who, and who should or shouldn't be able to say whether forgiveness is appropriate in a given situation, etc., at least as far as anyone who is a Christ-follower is concerned.  I believe forgiveness is appropriate ALL the time, no matter which supposed side of the victim-abused/perpetrator-abuser 'scale' one may be on.

There is nothing that I have said that is remotely reflected in this.

It is not a situation of "he hit me first,so he needs to apologize first". Yes, forgiveness is always appropriate, not one said differently. The problem comes in when people like you wish to deal only with the forgiveness by a victim and chastise them if they don't do so on your timetable.

Before many victims can hear the word forgive or even really understand,someone has to first speak something a little
different to them. But those that take it upon themselves to "educate a victim on forgiveness" do not care to listen, care little about helping in a constructive way. Using the bible as their hammer, and who can argue with that, they beat a victim into "christian" submission. Instead of helping them reach that objective, they add more guilt, more anger and frustration. But we know they don't like scripture, they are not doing so to the correct timetable



explain to me how you can understand the Gospel and then come to the conclusion that we don't have to be forgiven of our GRAVE sin against God, AND/OR that we don't have to forgive others as God has forgiven us through Christ? 


Can you understand that it is not forgiveness that is the problem? The problem is when "many Christians" want to make sure a victim of abuse forgives their abuser . This becomes the focal point of their "preaching" and pontificating.
Throw this at someone when they feel shame, guilt, confusion,fear, you have done at least as much if not more damage than the initial abuse.  There is nothing kind, compassionate, caring or Christian about it.
You cannot set the timetable, you cannot make anyone sincerely forgive. You can listen, you can gently guide when they are ready. YOU CANNOT DETERMINE WHEN,WHO,WHERE, HOW

Wonder what would have been the outcome of the story of the Good Samaritan had he first determined if the victim had forgiven. Maybe he went to him the next day and preached to him about the glories of forgiveness.

Give those struggling a chance, support,compassion and understanding. Then not only preach to them about forgiveness, preach to the guilty party his need to ask for forgiveness and make restitution where possible.

[bonnie]

Again, nobody is 'pushing' Scripture.  We're attempting to 'discuss' forgiveness in the Doctrinal Discussion area and there is still a resistance to even bringing Scripture to the discussion.  Maybe we should rely on our superior human wisdom and understanding...

When you are discussing forgiveness and your posts indicate only forgiveness by the victim you are pushing what many cannot even process in the beginning. You make no mention of your christian concern for the perpetrator,not one mention . You make no mention of anything that would lead someone to believe you are even on the same page with those that need help and understanding. You want your understanding immediately put into action.
Your response and that of many are the same and that is to heap on the victim the final responsibility. That, they have to do without being pushed and prodded and made to feel as if it is their fault.

He did both.  To those who knew better (religious people) he was completely in their face.  How far do you want to take the 'follow His example' thing?  All the way to the cross?  Jesus forgave there as well!

I have yet to see one word from you that would indicate you have a desire to be in the face of anyone, except those that can least deal with it.

 .

Actually I completely understand...

I don't believe that you understand. You have one track and that is it. Everyone needs to reach the "destination" you preach to them in your way. You have never expressed the slightest interest in dealing with those that abuse,it is only the abused to hurry up and forgive

What MORE would you show beyond Christ?

Sometimes showing Christ is best accommplished with no sermons and tons of patience and compassion

I agree.  For the most part that has been my experience with SDA's also.  There are very few SDA counselors I could confidently make a referral to.

From some very painful, personal experience I can tell you how you come across. Reading the responses here by some,mirror the responses I was given when I first began to look for help. It would and almost did  turn me so against SDA's and anything the bible had to say were it not for one man. What you have posted came at me during a time I could not even begin to comprehend the scope of what we were dealing with. What I heard was "forgive,all have sinned,forgive 7x70 etc . The word was not even on my radar screen, I could not think that far ahead, BUT the christians knew the way and that was to forgive on their timetable. Never mentioning, I might add,the responsibility of the predator we were dealing with. Same as you are doing as well.

Taking it 1,2,3,4, is a lot more helpful than demanding a victim goes from 1-5 immediately

Yes, I do.  I 'sit in the gutter' with people every week.  How many stories would you like?  I won't give you ANY where Christ-like forgiveness isn't a part of the solution, because I don't know of any.  I only have a 15 year perspective in full-time ministry and counseling, but I've never seen complete healing occur without forgiveness.

I so far haven't read where anyone said we could have complete healing without forgiveness.
ONE MORE TIME,no one is advocating anything less than forgiveness. However, you want it first last and always as the solution to any problem. On the immediate timetable of others it seems, as you have nothing to say but forgivness.

While this is true for some (I'm not comfortable with your use of 'many'), it only means that they need to have their paradigm changed.  GOD chose that analogy...just like he took the analogy of marriage, a snake, a business owner, etc.  I don't believe in finding all the excuses possible to enslave people into a 'victim' mentality.  Too much psycho-babble today ENABLES victim mentality.  Scripture does not agree!

This tells me all I needed to hear.....
 I don't believe in finding all the excuses possible to enslave people into a 'victim' mentality.  Too much psycho-babble today ENABLES victim mentality.  Scripture does not agree

I thank God there was one person that had the desire to help/listen/and not preach.


I

[Ozzie]

What is your pastor doing to be accountable?  What do you personally do?

What is our Pastor doing? From my observations, pretending that abuse doesn't exist in the Church.

What am I doing? Working with the abused and the vulnerable for over 38 years. LISTENING to people, which many others seem to have trouble doing. So many want to be there TELLING people how they should feel, what they should do and how they should forgive, before they even show people that they care.

There's only one reason that I think many people do not want to acknowledge that we do have a problem in our church and society regarding 'abuse' and forgiveness' (apart from those who want to deny that it's happening in their homes), and that is: I think that people can be so uncomfortable with the reality that this IS happening. They'd rather CHOOSE to PRETEND that it's not happening, so they don't have to be involved or to deal with it.

What else do I do? I show that I care in many ways outside a text book or Church Manual. About this time last year, my husband and I travelled north so that I could be maid-of-honour at a former client's wedding - that being 14 years after I first met the terrified, abused and suicidal person; who could hardly believe that she had found a Counsellor who would LISTEN and PRAY with her -without pushing 'forgiveness' down her throat. The 'forgiveness part' came many years later.

What I won't be doing, is engaging with anymore arguing back and forth with people who prefer to CHOOSE to IGNORE the reality that people need to have their physical and mental problems dealt with, before we start pushing the 'forgiveness barrel'. I will continue to LISTEN to Church families and show them love and compassion, while others remain judgemental and tell them they just need to forgive and forget.

[bonnie]

What am I doing? Working with the abused and the vulnerable for over 38 years. LISTENING to people, which many others seem to have trouble doing. So many want to be there TELLING people how they should feel, what they should do and how they should forgive, before they even show people that they care.

There's only one reason that I think many people do not want to acknowledge that we do have a problem in our church and society regarding 'abuse' and forgiveness' (apart from those who want to deny that it's happening in their homes), and that is: I think that people can be so uncomfortable with the reality that this IS happening. They'd rather CHOOSE to PRETEND that it's not happening, so they don't have to be involved or to deal with it.

What else do I do? I show that I care in many ways outside a text book or Church Manual. About this time last year, my husband and I travelled north so that I could be maid-of-honour at a former client's wedding - that being 14 years after I first met the terrified, abused and suicidal person; who could hardly believe that she had found a Counsellor who would LISTEN and PRAY with her -without pushing 'forgiveness' down her throat. The 'forgiveness part' came many years later.

What I won't be doing, is engaging with anymore arguing back and forth with people who prefer to CHOOSE to IGNORE the reality that people need to have their physical and mental problems dealt with, before we start pushing the 'forgiveness barrel'. I will continue to LISTEN to Church families and show them love and compassion, while others remain judgemental and tell them they just need to forgive and forget.[/b]

Thank You Ozzie. I am not sure that some even realize what they are doing. They have such a narrow focus and it is a biblical focus, so how can it be wrong?
I think that it would surprise the "preachers of forgiveness first by the abused" that if they just listened with a compassionate ear, they wouldn't even have to open their mouth concerning forgiveness. It would come.