Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[bonnie]

Flip Side of the Coin.

Many times we have batted around "the person wronged must forgive" There is no question aboutt hat.

What about the person doing the wrong,What must they do to be forgiven.
I took a sentence fromRed Falcons post...........

If we hang onto a wrong it will eat away at our soul poisoning whatever spirtual healing God wishes to impart on us

Instead of focusing on the wronged person and hanging onto a wrong....
Will a wrong we are guilty of and hang onto poison our soul???

[bonnie]

Flip Side of the Coin.

Many times we have batted around "the person wronged must forgive" There is no question about hat.

What about the person doing the wrong,What must they do to be forgiven.
I took a sentence fromRed Falcons post...........

If we hang onto a wrong it will eat away at our soul poisoning whatever spiritual healing God wishes to impart on us

Instead of focusing on the wronged person and hanging onto a wrong....
Will a wrong we are guilty of and hang onto poison our soul???

An attempt to  set the record straight over the recent  and all to familiar  controversy over this topic. This is not IMO, even a serious issue with those that make a controversy over it. Red Falcon, I firmly believe is one that I crossed paths with right in the beginning. And it seems to continue
Forgiveness is either a much needed and healing concept or in the hands of some becomes a most abusive biblical tool to use against those you see as your enemy.


Forgiveness does not automatically follow on the heels of wrong doing. Forgiveness is not only used to describe the biblical actions of those wronged. It is something that is needed by all, some more than others.   The typical response is the wronged must forgive. This must be voluntary and freely given. It is not something that relieves the guilty of seeking forgiveness and true repentence

To begin the backward approach to forgiveness is very damaging. To begin with the wronged must forgive is more damaging than most that profess this know.Some just flat out don't care how damaging as long as  they can carry out their agenda .  My experience mirrors that of most that have dealt with Red Falcon and others like him. When I first turned to the internet looking for information to help my son,the first thing that happened was the preaching of forgiveness, followed by threats by same in Pm's that I would never get by with what I was doing.
The accusation and the blame was  laid to me because I was angry. And I was, not even so much at the guilty party,as the big yawn this behavior was treated with, and that somehow if I only forgave it would be all better. Not even sure yet what was all to be forgiven, the demand was to forgive. Every day it was waiting for the next shoe to drop and drop it did. Forgiveness was not a refusal, you simply had no idea yet what you were even dealing with. Still trying to make sense of what happened,there are those that are demanding forgive
The same refrain that has been raised here more than once.
In the early stages of looking to the internet, one man, ONLY ONE, understood and did not preach. Did not condemn,did not blame. NOt good numbers when you think the vast majority was SDA. Did not begin with the backward solution. Forgive and then we will forgive you for being a victim mentality.
It is a topic that needs to be understood. It is something that a victim of abuse must come to terms with before they can have anything resembling a normal life.  To place the backward sequence in the general area,the first place that visitors come to,only does the reverse of what some claim to want.

There is no place in the vocabulary of some for even considering what the bible dictates the guilty must do, and how the must ask forgiveness. Not before a victim can forgive, but because they sincerely repent.

Their repentance is a spererate issue from forgiveness by their victim. Unfortunately, most guilty of abuse, neither know or care whether their victim forgives them. But for the victim to find any peace, they need to be able to do that.   Or, forgiveness is used by those not in a position to offer forgiveness to browbeat the victim. Usually as a means to keep them quiet.

Forgiveness does  not result from others demanding, ridiculing or condemning the victim for not forgiving on a timetable set by someone else. Or by the terms set down by those preaching.

Instead of making it impossible to reach those that badly need to forgive for their own emotional well being, to say nothing of eternity, the general area is somewhere that a visitor,someone that may badly need some affirmation that it is not all their fault can be comfortable on this topic. Not feel like they are unacceptable because they have not been able to forgive according to the dictates of others.

[Johann]

You seem to be unveiling some of our pre-conceived convictions, touching on some aspects of this question which seems unexplored. It should no unsettle any of us discussing the subject, looking at it from a different angle that we are so used to.

Some times we think that something that in itself is very good, cannot be misused?

[bonnie]

You seem to be unveiling some of our preconceived convictions, touching on some aspects of this question which seems unexplored. It should no unsettle any of us discussing the subject, looking at it from a different angle that we are so used to.

Some times we think that something that in itself is very good, cannot be misused?

Love and forgiveness are two words, when used with a hidden agenda, are very cruel and very damaging

Many like to settle and dwell on the end result, It really isn't much different than dragging someone to the baptismal tank and explaining afterwards what they joined.

The way forgiveness is used almost gives the guilty a sense of entitlement to be forgiven and observers or  parties a easy way out. It is easy as a non involved party to be free and frequent with the instruction to forgive. Requires nothing from them as long as the victim has learned their lesson and have taken the right steps.
Matters little in the scheme of things if it is a serious abuse,with the very real potential to harm others as well, or just that someone has badly hurt feelings,the reaction is the same. Leap over all and get down to the business of forgiveness. If someone has such a great burden for this issue,why do we always leave out the party of the first part.

Is there the same concern for this...Will a wrong we are guilty of and hang onto poison our soul???
Not in place of concern over the injured party and their spiritual well being. Alongside or maybe in the face of serious harm that can affect others,even first in the attempt to foster reconciliation or forgiveness.
When someone keeps getting hit over the head,forgiveness comes pretty hard.

When is the last time someone actually took the very same concern to the guilty party and preached and instructed them? That is not asked as in meaning,Well He did it first It is asked as in,Are you as concetrned about the spiritual well being of the guilty party as you appear to be towards the wronged

[Johann]

I am struck by your reference to dragging someone to the baptismal tank and explaining afterwards.

Do you feel the baptismal tank is used by some as a cure for all. Personally I am convince the baptismal tanks is greatly misused by some of our brethren. I have a notion that re baptism can often be a curse and not a blessing, because some use it as a valve to be reused when you feel you have done something wrong.

Our would you rather not have me taking the discussion in that direction?

[bonnie]

I am struck by your reference to dragging someone to the baptismal tank and explaining afterwards.

Do you feel the baptismal tank is used by some as a cure for all. Personally I am convince the baptismal tanks is greatly misused by some of our brethren. I have a notion that re baptism can often be a curse and not a blessing, because some use it as a valve to be reused when you feel you have done something wrong.

Our would you rather not have me taking the discussion in that direction?

Ypu are more than welcome in this discussion.

[Johann]

There are times when spiritual healing is a must, and where baptism is not the cure. Words of Scripture might not then be the right medication, where a hearing ear is more essential.

Someone has pointed out in another thread that even though our relationship to Christ means all to us, that relationship has no meaning without a relationship with other human beings. Some people need to discover Christ through the relationship with another human being where love and forgiveness is a living part of the relationship

[bonnie]

1.I am struck by your reference to dragging someone to the baptismal tank and explaining afterwards.

Do you feel the baptismal tank is used by some as a cure for all. Personally I am convince the baptismal tanks is greatly misused by some of our brethren.


I agree. Just get them that far and all is well. Same for the very important topic of forgiveness. Eliminate that pesky middle man and get to the end of the chase

I have yet to see where that topic is treated in it's entirety. Focusing only on what the injured party must do.

IMO,it is the easy and cheap way to witness to someone. If we can show how forgiving we would be in the shoe's of the other guy, God will certainly forgive our itty-bitty transgressions. After all we have professed how we know what we should do in the shoe's of the injured party.

Some seem to have this tremendous burden to reach others with the necessity of forgiving those that have wronged them. I have often wondered where this tremendous burden is for the one committing the injury. Both actions or inaction can and will effect a person's salvation.

Concentrating on the responsibility only of the injured party places a tremendous burden on one that may already be really struggling. If a serious wrong has been committed, they can very likely be dealing with major problems created by that. Then you load the responsibility for making it all better by forgiveness at a time many cannot even think that far ahead. They are condemned if they are angry, as that sin is at least as bad, if not more so than the wrong that has been committed.

There are other important aspects to the topic of forgiveness besides the blanket forgiveness some seem to want others to do. You will rarely if ever see that side of the coin touched by those that preach 7 x 70

For either what the other guy does as far as accepting or giving an apology,is immaterial to what happens for either side when sincerely offered.

It is not that the injured party needs to extract apology or retribution first,. Most of the time it seems as if  there is no repentance for wrong doing. That does not alter the Christian responsibility. It does not alter the responsibility of the one doing the wrong either. He may never be forgiven. There may even be attempts to extract revenge,even tho there has been sincere repentance. Doesn't matter. The guilty must be acknowledged with the same level of concern. If not, I don't believe the "christian concern or preaching" is genuine.


2.I have a notion that re baptism can often be a curse and not a blessing, because some use it as a valve to be reused when you feel you have done something wrong.


I think re- baptism is quite often used as a "See This".  Used in much the same way as a generic apology,or as my dad would say, an apology with disclaimers,or as addressing someone as brother or sister. All little signs that tell the world how we want the world to perceive us.

The reality can be quite different.

I have waited and seems no interest in anyone wanting to begin a topic in the appropriate section the on christian obligation of forgiveness.

Both are equally important. But you cannot sincerely care about one part, without the same care for the other. Both parties involved have a salvation to lose.

Nor should the burden first or only  placed on the injured party with the expectation as long as they forgive it will be all better. Many times it is not better, but gets progressively worse as it does not stop anyone's behavior.
If you only express concern for the injured party to forgive, it is pretty selective in whose salvation you are concerned over



 

[bonnie]

There are times when spiritual healing is a must, and where baptism is not the cure. Words of Scripture might not then be the right medication, where a hearing ear is more essential.

Someone has pointed out in another thread that even though our relationship to Christ means all to us, that relationship has no meaning without a relationship with other human beings. Some people need to discover Christ through the relationship with another human being where love and forgiveness is a living part of the relationship

The hearing ear is maybe the most important of all. But,and I admit I am a little cynical at this point,I don't believe the hearing ear gives the recognition those preaching want.

True christian concern has the same care and concern over the salvation of the guilty as does the injured party.
Yet the concern shown is for one. The one that is easiest to deal with, without getting your own hands dirty.

Forgiveness sometimes comes hard. It is not the immediate response ,and takes more than a little soul searching, especially if it is your children or family that is harmed.
Concentrating on the forgiveness first and only can do tremendous harm. 

[Johann]

Did Jesus ever get His own hands dirty?

The answer to that question might not be what people think!!!

[bonnie]

Did Jesus ever get His own hands dirty?

The answer to that question might not be what people think!!!

I think he did. When chasing the money changers from the temple,he did not say first and only forgive as it continued,  I think he was a little involved

[RedFalcon]

Did Jesus ever get His own hands dirty?

The answer to that question might not be what people think!!!

Of cource Jesus got his hands dirty. He was a carpenter was he not. I do not know a carpenter yet who did not get his hands dirty in a literal sence.

I know I know that is now what you meant.

[Johann]

When Pilate washed his hands, what happened to the hands of Jesus?

[Freeindeed]

When Pilate washed his hands, what happened to the hands of Jesus?

They were pierced for our iniquity and transgression.  Jesus literally became sin for us so that he could make us righteous before God.  Hands get no dirtier than that.

In Christ alone...

[bonnie]

When Pilate washed his hands, what happened to the hands of Jesus?

They were pierced for our iniquity and transgression.  Jesus literally became sin for us so that he could make us righteous before God.  Hands get no dirtier than that.

In Christ alone...

This means what in terms of what we are to do concerning forgiveness by those that are guilty of harming others,or the path the injured party must take??  Not only for their own emotional well being,but both for their own salvation