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[inga]

Dear Patsi,

Welcome to this forum! (Sorry I'm late in welcoming you, but I've been away...)

I'm so sorry you had such a negative experience in cyberspace!!

I am little unsure of where this  :-[might be considered appropriate. I am so
angry and so disheartened and heartsick that I almost don't know where to
begin.

I will tell you right upfront I am not a Seventh Day Advent. Several years
ago I began to feel the need for a connection to God in my life and began
searching the internet. I was directed to an advent forum and joined.

What I have found is a cold, spiteful destructive God with cold spiteful
followers.

That you found "cold spiteful followers," I can well believe. Not all who profess to be followers of God truly know Him. As a matter of fact, when God Himself walked this earth in the person of Jesus Christ, those who most seriously professed to follow Him -- the most "pious" of them all -- murdered Him in the most cruel manner.

But God allowed Himself to be spitefully treated so that you and I might spend eternity in a loving relationship with Him and others who truly love Him and His created beings.

So I really don't know how you could find a "cold, spiteful destructive God" -- providing, of course, you were referring to the God of the Bible.

God's foremost characteristic is love. What we often seem to forget, though, is that there is no genuine love without justice and discipline. Those of us who are parents ought to know, t though. Children that are "loved" without discipline are not truly loved at all, because only through discipline are they prepared for the realities of life. And only through discipline will they develop an admirable character.

In the same way, God disciplines those He loves. Sometimes the recipients of the discipline don't appreciate it -- like the toddler who shouts at His mother, "I hate you!" afte being denied the indulgence of His whim.

On the other hand, there is also an enemy of God at work in the affairs of humanity. Not all that happens is the result of God's direct will. God has chosen to allow men and women the privilege of free will. That means the ability to choose to do wrong. And through wrong choices, Satan has control of much of this planet. And that control means that the innocent suffer here. Fortunately, this life is but a moment, and God is fully able to more than make up for the injustices of this life in the eternity to come.

I do hope that you are still reading, Patsi, and that you will continue to ask questions when you have them.

[By the way, Daryl, thanks for adding some more smilies. Looking forward to others.]

[Johann]

God is still good.

[Ozzie]

God is still good.

All the time, no matter what happens.  

[Johann]

All the time, no matter what happens.  

So we should be happ-y!

[charis]

What I have found is a cold, spiteful destructive God with cold spiteful
followers.

I wish I'd seen this earlier before Patsi left. Her statement reminds me much about my observations of Christians in general (and SDA's specifically) when I was a witch.  If it hadn't been for a handful of SDA ministers I would still be stirring my pot, because by and large, the picture I was getting of God was as a tyrant, writing down all my sins in a book, which would then be read to everyone on this planet and other planets, and I would be thrown into hell for drinking a Starbucks Coffee and wearing earrings.

Cold and vicious people seem so common in some SDA-oriented Christian forums.  I was going to leave the church, specifically because of the treatment I received from SDA Christians.  God was seldom in the forefront.  People would post things, such as "we need to be forgiving" - then turn around and stick a knife in someone's back.  Not a good presentation of Christianity at work.  Unfortunately it is usually the loudest, most verbose and obnoxious members who tie up the forum and give it a bad name.  But visitors don't know that.

The problem is that for new Christians, such as me, we don't yet have a good grasp of who God really is.  We get our ideas from the people who profess to be followers - disciples - of Christ.  It always irks me when people say "You need to look at Jesus, not at people."  Well, folks, if one doesn't have a good idea of how Christ/God is, then the way to know Him is through his followers.  Sorta like Jesus saying if people see Him, they have seen the Father (sorry - I don't have the text.....am still in remedial Bible reading).  So if a non-Christian sees a professed Christian behaving in less-than-honorable ways, that is going to be the picture he/she has of that person's God.

Why do people need God?  I wondered that myself sometimes.  Aside from sustaining life on earth (which pagans believe their goddesses/gods do), why do people need God? Protection? same with pagans.  Power?  same with pagans.  So what do we need that only God can supply?  The only thing that God did that no pagan goddess or god can or would or could do, was to die so the human race could live. Grace.  Why do I need God?  Because He's probably the only one who completely understands me at the moment.

p.s. I forgot to write an introduction.  I'm Charis.  Live in the Pacific NW of the US.  Grew up SDA, understood absolutely nothing about God and Christ; became a witch, hedgewitch to be specific.  That means I used plants for healing, but also cast runes, etc.  No I never cast spells on people....the toads you see are really toads.

[Daryl Fawcett]

One thing we know for certain, which is that the devil is the one portraying God as vicious and destructive, whereas we see God as He really is in the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

John 3:16 portrays God as He really is, as God who so loved the world that......

We, therefore, see God as a loving God, but also as a just God in the sense that His love for the world can not forgive the sin in the world without a penalty being paid, which is where the Plan of Salvation entered into the picture, as explained in the rest of John 3:16 in that God gave His only begotten Son as the Lamb of God who took our sins upon Himself and paid the penalty of our sins on the tree of Calvary.

[Chrissie]

I am little unsure of where this  :-[might be considered appropriate. I am so angry and so disheartened and heartsick that I almost don't know where to begin.

I will tell you right upfront I am not a Seventh Day Advent. Several years ago I began to feel the need for a connection to God in my life and began searching the internet. I was directed to an advent forum and joined.

What I have found is a cold, spiteful destructive God with cold spiteful followers.

Patsi, I find what you say in here is inconsistent with what you have stated in another thread.

Why must you always demean the Seventh Day Adventist church with your accusations?   

That is always what you seem to be doing. What abuse forum for survivors/victims have?  I take it it no longer exsists because as you know, it is not something that Seventh Day Adventists consider a real problem because we deal with it within the church as any good Seventh Day Adventists will do. Seventh Day Adventists are interested in abuse should it be the proven abuse. Many do not have proven abuse and why damage someones reputation if it is not true? What would the point of that be? "

So, are you a Seventh-day Adventist or are you not?

[Daryl Fawcett]

I was going to close this topic for staff review, however, in light of the last post here in which a question has been asked by the Forum Moderator of this forum, I have decided to leave it open.

This topic, however, is presently under staff review.

[patsi]

It seems so many are so against anything Bonnie says, it gets confusing. How can so many be wrong?

[bonnie]

Patsi,

When you say so many, what is the actual number?
The oppossition comes from a few, the same few that have been oppossing for over six years. Always refusing to discuss or consider the real issue, everytine wanting and manufacturing their own to cement an idea in the minds of those to afraid to speak out.

Why do you supposse that the offer to lay it all out, settle the dispute and clear the air as to honesty, was not only ignored,refused, but run from the topic as fast as possible? I am not afraid of it. I have no problem laying all out that deals with this topic. When we so smugly say "Truth Can Stand Investigation" and run from a particular investigation, it may give you a clue

[patsi]

You know Bonnie, it might be easier just to put it all out there. It would give others a chance to at least decide who is being truthful in this.

Do you know the actual numbers yourself? You say you have been involved with this for so long? What is the actual number. I do not know the actual number.

[bonnie]

You know Bonnie, it might be easier just to put it all out there. It would give others a chance to at least decide who is being truthful in this.

Do you know the actual numbers yourself? You say you have been involved with this for so long? What is the actual number. I do not know the actual number.

Your first statement is really at the heart of the matter. truthful about what? My desire to see our denomintion lead in this instead of some desperate attempt to grab the tail? Or some phoney, cheap forgivness as the end result of what we could have prevented in the first place.


My purpose, if I choose to do that of laying it all out,is not to do so to prove a reason for that proactive stance. It says a lot about the reasoning and I believe honesty of those that think a petty revenge on their part is more christian than acting pro-actively.

I have made a decision to begin assembling in order events as they have transpired regarding my honesty in this matter. I have the means to place the information on a private, closed,by invitation only website. There is much there concerning the help some tried to give in resolving this situation. I need to check the rights to use your personal e-mails and correspondence as you see fit. Excluding blackmail of course.

 In some respects those that were in a position to help were suucessful,they will soon be contacted to review their part and statements concerning this. No discussion will be allowed, only written records can be presented. They need to have the opportunity to know nothing has been deleted or edited.
It will be full and complete expousure.  . Then I will  make the decision as to whether that expousure includes those that wish to use factual information in hopes of implementing pro-active measures in this and stop the spread of malicious misinformation. The disclousure here is inappropriate.

I cannot give you a timetable. It will be that one time that pushes this over the edge from speculation to full disclousure. That one abuse, that one lie, fabrication. That one incident that can no longer be ignored in the light of damage being done

As the the numbers that actually get in there and fabricate and obscure, numbers are five or less for those I personally deal with or have in the past. It is the same ones, giving objections based on their own fabricated inuendo's and interests.
The numbers that circle the wagons in a desperate attempt to hold their coats cannot be counted.

[patsi]

Well Bonnie, if people are lying, maybe they need to be exposed. Ever think of that?

[bonnie]

Well Bonnie, if people are lying, maybe they need to be exposed. Ever think of that?

Many times. There will be a time and place

[sky]

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown... The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is as last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." E.G. White, The Great Controversy, p.36.

The reason why so many of us adventists fail to appreciate the principles of God's dealings with sin is, I believe, because we have not allowed the Bible to be its own interpreter in the face of many passages of Scriptures which seem to contradict the above statement. Rightly understood the Bible teaches what the above statement says but we need to sink the shaft deeper into the mine of truth in order to discern its deep truths.

sky