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[bonnie]

I doubt if it is a conservative or liberal problem. Both will cover their own immoral acts in this and speak out against.
Liberal's have their own reasons for turning a blind eye to somethinglike this and it usually goes along the lines of......
Well you know all have sinned,if you haven't cast the first stone

[GrandmaNettie]

Bob, I have not found that a person's position on the conservative<----->liberal continuum has much to do with their understanding of the issues involved in peophilia. I grew up in conservatism and there was molestation and cover-ups that I could name. I have "liberal" friends who are much more aware and educated than the people I grew up with. And some that are not. In fact, some of the most dogmatic conservatives I have known have been found later to have been covering up immorality in their own life, pretending to be totally pure and virtually sinless, while hidden abuse was going on.

It would be well for all to wrap their brains around your statements, scratsmom.  Beautifully put, IMO! 

Far too often we look at the facade a person presents and make the judgement that it represents the heart and mind of that person.  This is the inherent problem with labels or classifications such as "Conservative" or "Liberal".  It is also the way of thinking that is foundational to providing victims to those who abuse their positions of trust, such as a pastor.  Too many assume that conservative equals pure and safe.

More likely, people who downplay abuse are being affected by the standards they grew up with. If someone had abuse in their family and surroundings as they were growing up, they believe it is "normal" and not that big a deal. Or if they were abused, they tend to downplay it's affects on others because they don't want to admit that it affected them, unless they have become educated since they became adults. And certainly if they have abused others in any way, they will downplay and tapdance, because to call it what it is, they would have to face the fact that they themselves are abusers, and they are not usually willing to do that.

scratsmom

Sadly, you are right on point here.  Abusive family systems become a generational family tradition.

[GrandmaNettie]

Well, I find this whole thing totally disgusting.

I grew up around people eating pork, I ate pork, but that doesn't mean I downplay the evil results and potentially eternal consequences of disobeying God's commands in the Bible by eating pork.

I also grew up around people who kept Sunday and went to confession and thought that the priest could turn the bread into Jesus, and I kept Sunday and went to confession and probably thought the same. But that doesn't mean that I excuse or palliate such gross departures from Scripture.

People who teach that obedience is required and that perfection of character is possible and who prize theological and lifestyle correctness, and yet who can't stand up against such a gross, despicable evil, I wouldn't know how to claim them as conservatives. Sounds like rank hypocrisy to me.

So, scratsmom, you think one of the three possibilities you mentioned is the problem behind the silence or the excuses or the justifications?

Lee, are you around? What do you think of scratsmom's comments? Do they apply to you in any way?

Bob, did you intentionally compare eating pork or worshipping on Sunday to sexual abuse of any kind?

I understand that sin is sin and any sin separates the sinner from God, but to even compare these two personal choice issues to the devastatingly damaging effects of sexual abuse on the abused as well as the abuser is completely abhorant. 

I think the basic problem here is that you are not differentiating between an individual's world view when it comes to religion or politics and abberant behavior caused by a disconnect in proper reasoning. 

IMO, it is faulty reasoning to have the expectation that a conservative will refrain from such disgusting behavior.  Do you expect that a liberal would be more likely to behave in this awful manner?  That is the implication in the way you present this.  Again, that would be faulty reasoning.  As scratsmom said, this is not a conservative or liberal issue.

[inga]

As far as I am concerned 3ABN, altho not perfect has always tried to do all in a prayerful and christian manner

Wow! A most amazing statement! 

Your "prayerful and Christian" clearly looks different than what most of would see as "prayerful and Christian." 

[sonshineonme]

As far as I am concerned 3ABN, altho not perfect has always tried to do all in a prayerful and christian manner

Wow! A most amazing statement! 

Your "prayerful and Christian" clearly looks different than what most of would see as "prayerful and Christian." 

Inga,

You put it well. I had started a reply post attempting to state the obvious as well, but decided to dump it.
Thanks for saying it for me, and my guess for many others as well. Seems odd we would even have to say it at all as it's fairly clear to the thinking person what's christian and not. Remember, this nice "christian" behavior started and was put out there for all to see 4 years ago. Just think what was going on before that that the whole world did not see and is now learning. Amazing is right.

[Johann]

Amazing ain't the wrong term.

[scratsmom]

Well, I find this whole thing totally disgusting.

I grew up around people eating pork, I ate pork, but that doesn't mean I downplay the evil results and potentially eternal consequences of disobeying God's commands in the Bible by eating pork.

I also grew up around people who kept Sunday and went to confession and thought that the priest could turn the bread into Jesus, and I kept Sunday and went to confession and probably thought the same. But that doesn't mean that I excuse or palliate such gross departures from Scripture.

People who teach that obedience is required and that perfection of character is possible and who prize theological and lifestyle correctness, and yet who can't stand up against such a gross, despicable evil, I wouldn't know how to claim them as conservatives. Sounds like rank hypocrisy to me.

So, scratsmom, you think one of the three possibilities you mentioned is the problem behind the silence or the excuses or the justifications?
Lee, are you around? What do you think of scratsmom's comments? Do they apply to you in any way?

I don't know any of the parties involved, but in my experience with victims and their families, when someone says "Get over it" or "It wasn't that big a deal" or "You could've stopped it if you had wanted to" or "He didn't mean anything by it" or "You are making mountains out of molehills", they are either honestly ignorant of the effects of abuse on the victim because they have not done any research or had any personal experience with it, or they have downplayed the "gross, despicable evil-ness" of abuse because of the reasons I previously stated. OR, they honestly don't believe it happened--that the victim is lying. I think a lot of TS supporters don't believe it happened. Some seem to believe that maybe he crossed lines but these weren't "kids" so it is not the same thing as abuse. (if they would educate themselves, they would learn differently)

And again, I haven't found any correlation between the conservative scale and response to abuse. Most conservatives I know would rather hush abuse up and make it go away than deal with it, actually. Wouldn't want to make our church or school or institution look bad before the world and all that. And the ones I grew up around didn't believe in going to counselors so "just pray about it" was the advice of the day. I can give you a lot of stories showing how well that worked...

So though I agree with you that abuse is despicable and that all Christians should stand up in defense of the exploited, I don't assume that all who are support D and T are hypocrites. Some are deceived. Some are wearing blinders. But yes, those in leadership that you are dealing with personally may be trying to save their reputation or position at any cost, and if so, those I have no problem seeing as hypocrites.

Scratsmom 

[Fran]

Scratsmom;

I hear your experience speaking.  Thank you for your words.  May every victim of abuse hear your words.  It must be heard!

Fran      

[Bob Pickle]

Bob, did you intentionally compare eating pork or worshipping on Sunday to sexual abuse of any kind?

It was the best illustration I could think of to show the fallacy in thinking that because I grew up with certain things or did certain things, I can think those things aren't so bad.

Do you expect that a liberal would be more likely to behave in this awful manner?

No, but Adventists who get labeled conservative are supposed to have high standards, and the Adventists who are mixed up in this mess on the 3ABN side are supposed to have high standards. Lee is one of those, and she is not alone.

[Habanero]

In my opinion the New Testament tends to show the eating of foods, and other things like that to to be unimportant as compared to how one treats others.

Well, I find this whole thing totally disgusting.

I grew up around people eating pork, I ate pork, but that doesn't mean I downplay the evil results and potentially eternal consequences of disobeying God's commands in the Bible by eating pork.

I also grew up around people who kept Sunday and went to confession and thought that the priest could turn the bread into Jesus, and I kept Sunday and went to confession and probably thought the same. But that doesn't mean that I excuse or palliate such gross departures from Scripture.

People who teach that obedience is required and that perfection of character is possible and who prize theological and lifestyle correctness, and yet who can't stand up against such a gross, despicable evil, I wouldn't know how to claim them as conservatives. Sounds like rank hypocrisy to me.

So, scratsmom, you think one of the three possibilities you mentioned is the problem behind the silence or the excuses or the justifications?

Lee, are you around? What do you think of scratsmom's comments? Do they apply to you in any way?

Bob, did you intentionally compare eating pork or worshipping on Sunday to sexual abuse of any kind?

I understand that sin is sin and any sin separates the sinner from God, but to even compare these two personal choice issues to the devastatingly damaging effects of sexual abuse on the abused as well as the abuser is completely abhorant. 

I think the basic problem here is that you are not differentiating between an individual's world view when it comes to religion or politics and abberant behavior caused by a disconnect in proper reasoning. 

IMO, it is faulty reasoning to have the expectation that a conservative will refrain from such disgusting behavior.  Do you expect that a liberal would be more likely to behave in this awful manner?  That is the implication in the way you present this.  Again, that would be faulty reasoning.  As scratsmom said, this is not a conservative or liberal issue.

[Snoopy]

Well, that's interesting.  And how exactly should one treat others?

In my opinion the New Testament tends to show the eating of foods, and other things like that to to be unimportant as compared to how one treats others.

[Habanero]

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

    37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

    40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

    41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

    44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

    45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

    46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew chapter 25

Well, that's interesting.  And how exactly should one treat others?

In my opinion the New Testament tends to show the eating of foods, and other things like that to to be unimportant as compared to how one treats others.

[Snoopy]

Well, you can quote all the Bible texts you want.  But isn't the bottom line that we should treat each other with respect?

Matthew chapter 25

[Chrissie]

Well, you can quote all the Bible texts you want.  But isn't the bottom line that we should treat each other with respect?

Matthew chapter 25

That is my understanding Snoopy.

[GrandmaNettie]

In my opinion the New Testament tends to show the eating of foods, and other things like that to to be unimportant as compared to how one treats others.

I agree, Habanero.  Mark 12:30, 31, NIV:

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."