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[Lil Star]

Can we have a discussion on the biblical course of action, along with the advice of Ellen White on what should be done and how.
 
What do we as members do when there are issues that must be addressed and CHANGED?
This is not about one specific issue. What do we do when there is sexual misconduct by pastors,teachers etc? Any kind of fraud? Financial misdealing?
 
And please, please, can we leave the forgiveness out of this?
Just some thoughts or direction as to how things should be handled, not to wait and forgive afterwards.
Pleeeaaasssseee

[Emma]

I guess the first necessity is to be sure of facts and have witnesses available to testify.

[Chrissie]

I guess the first necessity is to be sure of facts and have witnesses available to testify.

And therein lies the problem. Many people are not willing to come out and be 'witnesses', when it comes to the crunch. How many are prepared to stand up and be counted?  How many want peace and quiet at any  price and don't want to get involved? 

[Lil Star]

It seems to me that no one really knows what to do. No one seems to know what guidelines the SDA church has for handling serious problems of any kind. Maybe that is why things get so screwed up and people finally get disgusted and take it to the courts. SDA's are not listening and really don't seem to care much. 

[Chrissie]

It seems to me that no one really knows what to do. No one seems to know what guidelines the SDA church has for handling serious problems of any kind. Maybe that is why things get so screwed up and people finally get disgusted and take it to the courts. SDA's are not listening and really don't seem to care much. 

Do we have any 'starters' here regarding handling serious wrong in the Church? The Church Manual has very strict guidelines. Do any Churches abide by those, as well as the by laws of the land?

[bonnie]

It seems to me that no one really knows what to do. No one seems to know what guidelines the SDA church has for handling serious problems of any kind. Maybe that is why things get so screwed up and people finally get disgusted and take it to the courts. SDA's are not listening and really don't seem to care much. 

Do we have any 'starters' here regarding handling serious wrong in the Church? The Church Manual has very strict guidelines. Do any Churches abide by those, as well as the by laws of the land?

Most are not even aware of the guidlines or what they are.  I don't think they do abide by the laws of the land in many instances where reporting to civil authorities is required.

Easier to intimidate those victimized or concerned about serious issues

[Ozzie]

It seems to me that no one really knows what to do. No one seems to know what guidelines the SDA church has for handling serious problems of any kind. Maybe that is why things get so screwed up and people finally get disgusted and take it to the courts. SDA's are not listening and really don't seem to care much. 

Do we have any 'starters' here regarding handling serious wrong in the Church? The Church Manual has very strict guidelines. Do any Churches abide by those, as well as the by laws of the land?

Most are not even aware of the guidlines or what they are.  I don't think they do abide by the laws of the land in many instances where reporting to civil authorities is required.

Easier to intimidate those victimized or concerned about serious issues

Is this possibly due to a trend I see, to baptise people and bring in on POF, and then welcome them into fellowship without even hearing about the 28 Fundamental Beliefs and the Church Manual and/or Church organisation? Then, when problems arise, they don't know where to go to start the ball rolling and may feel helpless or leave the Church, without anyone doing anything about 'the problem'?

I see this as a major lack on the part of Pastors and some Church Boards (actual dereliction of duty), who seem to be more interested in getting 'numbers', instead of ensuring that people know what they are signing on their Baptismal Certificate/POF Certificate?

I've seen too many cases of "Sign here. You don't have to read that", and find out later that the person/s don't even believe in church organisation. If they don't believe in it, they're hardly likely to go to the proper authorities in the Church, who then, if carrying out their duties properly, will notify the appropriate people in the judicial system.  It's worth thinking about anyway.

If they can't be bothered to instruct people properly initially, it's rather unlikely that they will take their duty of care responsibility seriously, when other problems creep into the Church and are more likely to my way of thinking, to start 'blaming the victim' instead. (Do we have a 'soap box smiley' please?).

[bonnie]

I see this as a major lack on the part of Pastors and some Church Boards (actual dereliction of duty), who seem to be more interested in getting 'numbers', instead of ensuring that people know what they are signing on their Baptismal Certificate/POF Certificate?

I've seen too many cases of "Sign here. You don't have to read that", and find out later that the person/s don't even believe in church organisation. If they don't believe in it, they're hardly likely to go to the proper authorities in the Church, who then, if carrying out their duties properly, will notify the appropriate people in the judicial system.  It's worth thinking about anyway.

I found a little different problem. After the fact,in speaking to the chruch board members of my own small home church, they themselves are unaware of the proper course of action.
As I looked for information, none to be had or given freely locally, I turned to online to see what if anything we had as guidelines and procedures.

After my initial complaint to the then conference president,it sat for a year. As I was told "we don't want to spread gossip". Sugeested he speak descreetly to the head elder of the church, same answer. Conference president was in fact a member of this church and knew the head elder. If those on the church board cannot be trusted to do their job and handle sensitive issues, that should be a clue they need to be replaced.

Only much later, thru online correspondence with those involved in the same issue, was I made aware there is a "Sexual Misconduct Ethics committee in each conference. With very specific guidelines to aid and protect and gather information from both parties. Problem is, members are secret. So secret in fact it would have taken the willingness of the conference president to make them aware of the complaint. How do you use a guideline that you don't know is there and don't know who to contact.
I was finally told reluctantly we have had such a committee in MN since the mid-70's. One that had never been used. Why not?? We have had several lawsuits concerning this issue since then. What is the reason for it's existence.

My local church board, head elder and others had no idea such a committee existed.

[Ozzie]

I see this as a major lack on the part of Pastors and some Church Boards (actual dereliction of duty), who seem to be more interested in getting 'numbers', instead of ensuring that people know what they are signing on their Baptismal Certificate/POF Certificate?

I've seen too many cases of "Sign here. You don't have to read that", and find out later that the person/s don't even believe in church organisation. If they don't believe in it, they're hardly likely to go to the proper authorities in the Church, who then, if carrying out their duties properly, will notify the appropriate people in the judicial system.  It's worth thinking about anyway.

I found a little different problem. After the fact,in speaking to the Church board members of my own small home church, they themselves are unaware of the proper course of action.
As I looked for information, none to be had or given freely locally, I turned to online to see what if anything we had as guidelines and procedures.

After my initial complaint to the then conference president,it sat for a year. As I was told "we don't want to spread gossip". Sugeested he speak descreetly to the head elder of the church, same answer. Conference president was in fact a member of this church and knew the head elder. If those on the church board cannot be trusted to do their job and handle sensitive issues, that should be a clue they need to be replaced.

Only much later, thru online correspondence with those involved in the same issue, was I made aware there is a "Sexual Misconduct Ethics committee in each conference. With very specific guidelines to aid and protect and gather information from both parties. Problem is, members are secret. So secret in fact it would have taken the willingness of the conference president to make them aware of the complaint. How do you use a guideline that you don't know is there and don't know who to contact.
I was finally told reluctantly we have had such a committee in MN since the mid-70's. One that had never been used. Why not?? We have had several lawsuits concerning this issue since then. What is the reason for it's existence.

My local church board, head elder and others had no idea such a committee existed.

I guess that we are fortunate that even at a Division level here, this service is well advertised, and I personally know our local Conference President and how quickly and appropriately he has acted in various cases. In this way, I could not fault his actions.

However, I see more of a problem at a local church level and have even heard a Pastor say "You can't legislate against what goes on behind closed doors", as I advocated for the "Abuse Recognition Day" in August one year. At that time, I was a new member here and not on the Board, but that's a different story now and our Conference Family Ministires Leader is coming up to take the service for that day, this year.

I'm not out to win any popularity contests, but I'm definitely here to make people aware of 'abuse issues' and where and how they may seek help; with no apologies to anyone - least of all, those who say or imply that abuse does not exist in our church.