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[bonnie]

I don't personally care what your opinion is. Each has a right to their own. UNTIL that opinion is used to condemn and label many, many people while you are condemning that very action. Then cry foul when questioned on what you have stated.

[Artiste]

We are busy doing Gods work, helping build 3 Adventist churches, a Adventist church school, find a way for 30-40 under privilidge children to get financing to go to the school, and share Gods truth with others so 3ABN doesnt even come up on our radar screen...

*****************************

The 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting...

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[To Bonnie]  You have no experience with me, I have not come across you in any of the other forums

Can you explain the disparities between the various quotes of yours above, reddogs?

How can you be sure you have not come across Bonnie in any other forums?  I have certainly come across you in another forum!

[bonnie]

We are busy doing Gods work, helping build 3 Adventist churches, a Adventist church school, find a way for 30-40 under privilidge children to get financing to go to the school, and share Gods truth with others so 3ABN doesnt even come up on our radar screen...

*****************************

The 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting...

*****************************

[To Bonnie]  You have no experience with me, I have not come across you in any of the other forums

Can you explain the disparities between the various quotes of yours above, reddogs?

How can you be sure you have not come across Bonnie in any other forums?  I have certainly come across you in another forum!

.

In my past experience with you the only opinion that is a sin to hold is that someone other than you have an opinion of right and wrong..

 I always find denials that are made to statements that don't exist a little questionable. By the time we had reached page 8 no one can deny this was becoming very familiar
Nor do I care whether we have crossed paths or not. Much of what has been posted here has a very familiar ring. I have interacted with one that begins or enters any discussion with the same theme. Only what seems to be selected portions. This party raises reddogs as well.
Who reddogs happens to be I don't really care. For me, to use more than one name everywhere would give me a gigantic migraine. To be as active as some are and remember what they may have said on what forum, or to someone privately would be a little much.

My only problem with reddogs is he seems to think being reminded of what he said is a low dig "at a brother"
yet accusing others of what has been said here somehow falls within the scriptual guidelines he keeps posting

[Habanero]

I believe that it is easy to sit back, take a judgemental but uneducated view of a complex situation, and congratulate yourself that you are promoting a "Christian" viewpoint.

Meanwhile human beings that God created are left suffering from the policies and actions over the years of 3ABN and wondering why not many care enough to take their side.

I am not sure many are actually wondering anymore. I think that most will have concluded that within Adventism, and probably throughout Christianity, the message is more important than the people. They will always say that it is about healing souls, but the actions belie the words.

The man credited with uniting Europe in Christianity was Charlemagne the Frank. The Church wanted to follow the great commision by bringing the truth to all Europeans so that that they could enjoy salvation too. Charlemagne went into Germany, and various other places where Christianity hadn't yet taken full hold and spread the truth. In fact, in a matter of a few days the Rhine ran red with the blood of tens of thousands of people beheaded by the Frankish army when they did not immediately convert. Charlemagne was crowned Holy Roman Emperor by the Church for his dedication to spreading the message. Although many Christians were unhappy with his methods, they lauded his effectiveness, and that effectiveness was considered the result of God's blessing.

As it was then, the message and its promulgation is more important than the people it is supposed to bless. Human sacrifice in many forms has been, and continues to be very much an accepted part of Christianity, and saying anything about it will, at the very least, result in rebukes and Biblical quotes forbidding you from saying anything.

[Ozzie]

The 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts   or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting.......

So, reddogs, after all the evidence presented, you still accuse us here on Advent Talk of "lack of facts".

This makes me sad.

And I already knew you were a mod on Daryl's other forum.

I was sure I read somewhere in this discussion that reddogs was unfamiliar with any facts.

[b]I dont think that taking shots like that at a brother is called for....[/b]

But... it's quite OK to hide behind Scripture and SOP as your defence for not accepting responsibility for requiring accountability, is it?

That's just a plain, straight forward cop out. A coward's way of refusing to deal with corruption in the court. 

I just can't believe how some people will wriggle and squirm to avoid dealing with the tough issues and then start the 'poor me routine'. 

[Sam]

So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.

Just a few questions to clarify.  Please provide only direct answers to the specific questions.

We all know if you are given a clearance by the IRS....YOU ARE CLEARED.  Meaning the IRS is known for finding things when their really isn't anything to find. So, if they clear you, you can be sure you are squeaky clean.  My question?

What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing?  That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..

IMO if that happens that would mean a large number of stories you have repeated, as well as, your own take on what constitutes private inurment, mishandling of funds and on and on would be totally incorrect. Without merit.  Down the tube.  In  other words, your opinions and your sources opinions aren't worth a dime compared to the IRS.  If your financial allegations are proven false then think how many other accusations you have made that could be in error also.  Several come to mind.

1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce.  I have found that to be totally false.  Because the "board" mentioned spiritual adultery does that "rule out" they had no knowledge of "actual" adultery?  I think not.  I believe the board acted respectfully by not airing the sordid details.  If and I say If, Danny referred to spriritual adultery does that also mean he doesn't have evidence of actual adultery and again, was being respectful by not going into detail?   To say that Danny ADMITTED to not having biblical grounds for divorce is so far from the truth, it is actually a lie.  I have noticed Mr. Pickle that you say what you need to where you need to, to fit the situation. For instance.  I have read numerous times where you have accused Danny of trashing his ex wife on the air and trying to ruin her reputation by saying she committed adultery.  Then, as in your more recent post, you say he ADMITS only spiritual adultery.  I'm confused.  If he ADMITS it was only spiritual adultery then how could he, at other times, trash her by accusing her of "actual" adultery?  If Danny and the board have evidence then certainly Danny had biblical grounds for remarriage, and he nor the board owe Linda or anyone else an apology for their actions.

2. Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject.  I know this will be hard for you but, moving past that, your allegation against Danny is that he "covered up" molestation.  I have a few opinions myself on the subject.
First from what I have read and heard, your accusation of pedophilia is way out of line.  But, to get to the main point, there are other possible scenerio's besides a "cover up."  Did it ever occur to you that maybe Danny repeated to Walt Thompson the information that he had heard and believed?  Or, that Danny may have had knowledge of some mistakes (not pedophilia) made in the very distant past but knew (or thought) that the problems had been resolved and had no reason to believe that during the time of Tommy's 3abn employment that anything was amiss?  As far as I can tell that is an accurate assumption.  The employment time is all Danny would be responsible for.  I would sure hate to hold the head of any organization accountable for any mistakes or sins that their employees had made through their lifetimes.  Ha, there wouldn't be any companies left.

3. You are a broken record on private inurment also.  Yet I have read from some of the posters say that attorney's and auditors have been through the records and handled the transactions at the time, and have found everything above board.  Yet, you seem to think you have some insight that they do not.  If the IRS clears 3abn will you also claim insight that they don't have?

4. You are constantly referring now to the "stupid" lawsuit and what a terrible thing it is that 3abn filed one against you.  This is what I get from the forums, emails you have made public and comments from both sides.

For whatever reason, you became involved in questioning some things you had heard about 3abn.  Personal things, financial things... So you and Joy, complete strangers try or do contact Danny with your very personal questions while all the time, already repeating stories and accusations that you had been told.  Danny then, began to get phone calls that you guys were trouble and couldn't be trusted and were working with Linda to try and hurt 3abn. ( I read that somewhere.)  So Danny decided 1. all you were doing was repeating tales, 2. who were you to be cross examining him or 3abn in the first place.  You and Joy began to make phone calls and send emails to people you had been told had problems with 3abn/Danny/the board and began to collect their stories.  You repeated publicaly all the stories you were told. With no evidence, I might add.  Yet, all the while, you were proclaiming your desire to "save" a ministry.  To do that, IYO, most of administration would have to be wiped out.  Soon your accusations spread to anyone that has had anything to do with 3abn.  Their personal lives, their families, to you everyone was and is fair game.  I am still looking for the justification of trashing those that support 3abn, Shelton family members, family members of the board of directors, to try and "save" 3abn.  The trashing of so many other people's reputations has nothing to do with the 3abn ministry and your claim to "save it." What it does have to do with is developing hate and bitterness as you have progressed on your "unholy" mission.  You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it.  If your "sources" told you that John Doe was involved in thievery 10 years ago, expose it. Expose them, whether they are guilty or not. If someone told it to you, then obviously you feel it your obligation to make it public.  Doesn't matter how much or how little exposure to 3abn John Doe had or how many years ago he "allegedly" stole something, broadcast it. Make it public.  Even though, you can't prove it and are doing nothing but passing along gossip around the water cooler.

 That isn't even mentioning the fact that you created a website called "save" 3abn so that many times when people were searching the net for the "real" 3abn ministry they accidentally fell into the black pit that you had created for public consumption.

So as time went on and your allegations and accusations became more and more serious and you continued to state these allegations as facts to anyone who would listen, 3abn finally decided to take action and file a lawsuit for defamation, copyright, and whatever else they filed for.  And...you were, shocked, offended, horrified and clueless as to why they would take action???

Somehow you expect the general Adventist public to believe your actions are trying to "save" 3abn?  That you are following biblical principal? And that big, bad scary 3abn is trying to nail 2 poor little men who were only trying to help them?

You have to be kidding.

[Bob Pickle]

What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing?  That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..

Let's take your lengthy piece one point at a time.

First of all, why did you ask a question like the above in the light of all the information to the contrary? By now you should know that courthouse records and 3ABN's Form 990's prove that Danny bought a house from 3ABN in 1998 at an extreme loss, for $6,139 or $6,129, and sold it for $135,000 one week later. And you should know that that qualifies as a section 4958 excess benefit transaction, and that Danny denied getting one that year under penalty of perjury, and that the same Form 990 that denied such also admitted that such took place, since it admitted that a house was sold at an extreme loss.

Now first of all admit that what I just described is accurate, and then we can proceed to look at your other points.

Your question above is sort of like asking, "What will be your reaction if Jesus comes back and tells you that He changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and that you've been keeping the wrong Sabbath all these years?" Or, "What will be your reaction if there is a secret rapture, and the temple gets rebuilt, and there is a 7-year treaty, and the antichrist stops the sacrifices in the temple after 3.5 years?"

[Bob Pickle]

1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce.  I have found that to be totally false.

I will do one more.

How have you found that to be totally false? Are you suggesting that that email was forged, and that Danny never wrote it? Or are you suggesting that Danny lied? On what basis do you make such a statement?

To Linda Danny wrote almost a month after the divorce, on July 17, 2004:

... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.

... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.

... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.

... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.

... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.

... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.

... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.

... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.

Danny has a number of times given evidence that he is a liar, but on this one I choose to believe Danny: He didn't know almost a month after his divorce whether Linda had committed fornication with the doctor. That's what he said, plain and simple.

[Bob Pickle]

Really, Sam, your post is written as if you already know the truth but have chosen to promote lies instead.

I would love to see you give the opposite impression by admitting that what I have written above is correct, that courthouse records, the Form 990, and Danny's email all really do say those things.

The average reader doesn't just assert that there was no such house deal or admission when Danny's and 3ABN's documents say otherwise. Danny clones do that kind of thing, but the average person does not.

[Ozzie]

So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.

Just a few questions to clarify.  Please provide only direct answers to the specific questions.

We all know if you are given a clearance by the IRS....YOU ARE CLEARED.  Meaning the IRS is known for finding things when their really isn't anything to find. So, if they clear you, you can be sure you are squeaky clean.  My question?

What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing?  That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..

IMO if that happens that would mean a large number of stories you have repeated, as well as, your own take on what constitutes private inurment, mishandling of funds and on and on would be totally incorrect. Without merit.  Down the tube.  In  other words, your opinions and your sources opinions aren't worth a dime compared to the IRS.  If your financial allegations are proven false then think how many other accusations you have made that could be in error also.  Several come to mind.

1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce.  I have found that to be totally false.  Because the "board" mentioned spiritual adultery does that "rule out" they had no knowledge of "actual" adultery?  I think not.  I believe the board acted respectfully by not airing the sordid details.  If and I say If, Danny referred to spriritual adultery does that also mean he doesn't have evidence of actual adultery and again, was being respectful by not going into detail?   To say that Danny ADMITTED to not having biblical grounds for divorce is so far from the truth, it is actually a lie.  I have noticed Mr. Pickle that you say what you need to where you need to, to fit the situation. For instance.  I have read numerous times where you have accused Danny of trashing his ex wife on the air and trying to ruin her reputation by saying she committed adultery.  Then, as in your more recent post, you say he ADMITS only spiritual adultery.  I'm confused.  If he ADMITS it was only spiritual adultery then how could he, at other times, trash her by accusing her of "actual" adultery?  If Danny and the board have evidence then certainly Danny had biblical grounds for remarriage, and he nor the board owe Linda or anyone else an apology for their actions.

Hi Sam/Dan/Whoever

Are you forgetting Linda's requests; no DEMANDS that Danny/3abn/Board etc publicly furnish any/all the evidence that anyone has that she committed - be that 'spiritual adultery' (whatever that means) or any other kind of adultery they can make up. Not once, has anyone come forward and provided the evidence that Linda herself has called for. That seems rather strange. 

2. Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject.  I know this will be hard for you but, moving past that, your allegation against Danny is that he "covered up" molestation.  I have a few opinions myself on the subject.
First from what I have read and heard, your accusation of pedophilia is way out of line.  But, to get to the main point, there are other possible scenerio's besides a "cover up."  Did it ever occur to you that maybe Danny repeated to Walt Thompson the information that he had heard and believed?  Or, that Danny may have had knowledge of some mistakes (not pedophilia) made in the very distant past but knew (or thought) that the problems had been resolved and had no reason to believe that during the time of Tommy's 3abn employment that anything was amiss?  As far as I can tell that is an accurate assumption.  The employment time is all Danny would be responsible for.  I would sure hate to hold the head of any organization accountable for any mistakes or sins that their employees had made through their lifetimes.  Ha, there wouldn't be any companies left.

But you are forgetting that Tommy's employment with 3abn was supposed to be terminated back in the early 90's because of his behaviour. Another   Did you just happen to forget that? Can't accept such a lame excuse for thinking that pedophilia just doesn't matter.

3. You are a broken record on private inurment also.  Yet I have read from some of the posters say that attorney's and auditors have been through the records and handled the transactions at the time, and have found everything above board.  Yet, you seem to think you have some insight that they do not.  If the IRS clears 3abn will you also claim insight that they don't have?

I reckon that any person who has donated to 3abn has the right to accurate and timely accountability. Is that such a strange expectation?

4. You are constantly referring now to the "stupid" lawsuit and what a terrible thing it is that 3abn filed one against you.  This is what I get from the forums, emails you have made public and comments from both sides.

For whatever reason, you became involved in questioning some things you had heard about 3abn.  Personal things, financial things... So you and Joy, complete strangers try or do contact Danny with your very personal questions while all the time, already repeating stories and accusations that you had been told.  Danny then, began to get phone calls that you guys were trouble and couldn't be trusted and were working with Linda to try and hurt 3abn. ( I read that somewhere.)  So Danny decided 1. all you were doing was repeating tales, 2. who were you to be cross examining him or 3abn in the first place.  You and Joy began to make phone calls and send emails to people you had been told had problems with 3abn/Danny/the board and began to collect their stories.  You repeated publicly all the stories you were told. With no evidence, I might add.  Yet, all the while, you were proclaiming your desire to "save" a ministry.  To do that, IYO, most of administration would have to be wiped out.  Soon your accusations spread to anyone that has had anything to do with 3abn.  Their personal lives, their families, to you everyone was and is fair game.  I am still looking for the justification of trashing those that support 3abn, Shelton family members, family members of the board of directors, to try and "save" 3abn.  The trashing of so many other people's reputations has nothing to do with the 3abn ministry and your claim to "save it." What it does have to do with is developing hate and bitterness as you have progressed on your "unholy" mission.  You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it.  If your "sources" told you that John Doe was involved in thievery 10 years ago, expose it. Expose them, whether they are guilty or not. If someone told it to you, then obviously you feel it your obligation to make it public.  Doesn't matter how much or how little exposure to 3abn John Doe had or how many years ago he "allegedly" stole something, broadcast it. Make it public.  Even though, you can't prove it and are doing nothing but passing along gossip around the water cooler.

Remember that Danny/3abn didn't want this all sorted out quietly with ASI or the GC. No. It was they who instigated the 'stupid' lawsuit. It is they who decided to 'sue their Christian brethren'.
 

That isn't even mentioning the fact that you created a website called "save" 3abn so that many times when people were searching the net for the "real" 3abn ministry they accidentally fell into the black pit that you had created for public consumption.

So as time went on and your allegations and accusations became more and more serious and you continued to state these allegations as facts to anyone who would listen, 3abn finally decided to take action and file a lawsuit for defamation, copyright, and whatever else they filed for.  And...you were, shocked, offended, horrified and clueless as to why they would take action???

Somehow you expect the general Adventist public to believe your actions are trying to "save" 3abn?  That you are following biblical principal? And that big, bad scary 3abn is trying to nail 2 poor little men who were only trying to help them?

You have to be kidding.

No kidding Mate. Nothing could be more fair-dinkum than this was the way to go to expose to the 'stockholders in the pews' just the raketeering that was going on. I wonder how many dear, little, old ladies donated all their life savings to support 3abn and give DS a lifestyle of ease, while others went without? The website provoked sufficient people for them to realise that there was something very much wrong, and people needed to investigate for themselves, just what was happening at the so-called 'face of Adventism headquarters', which later stated that they were nondenominational. Would the people have known that 3abn would state that they were not affiliated with any Church or organisation, if this had not been brought to light? I think not.

[Artiste]

I believe that you, Mr. Pickle, are being used as a weapon by those who seek revenge against 3abn.
***********************************
You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it.
***********************************
Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again.  So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject.

Interesting techniques you use, Sam, plucking allegations and motives out of thin air and trying to manufacture psychological explanations that make no sense.

[Sam]

So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.

Just a few questions to clarify.  Please provide only direct answers to the specific questions.

We all know if you are given a clearance by the IRS....YOU ARE CLEARED.  Meaning the IRS is known for finding things when their really isn't anything to find. So, if they clear you, you can be sure you are squeaky clean.  My question?

What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing?  That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..

IMO if that happens that would mean a large number of stories you have repeated, as well as, your own take on what constitutes private inurment, mishandling of funds and on and on would be totally incorrect. Without merit.  Down the tube.  In  other words, your opinions and your sources opinions aren't worth a dime compared to the IRS.  If your financial allegations are proven false then think how many other accusations you have made that could be in error also.  Several come to mind.

1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce.  I have found that to be totally false.  Because the "board" mentioned spiritual adultery does that "rule out" they had no knowledge of "actual" adultery?  I think not.  I believe the board acted respectfully by not airing the sordid details.  If and I say If, Danny referred to spriritual adultery does that also mean he doesn't have evidence of actual adultery and again, was being respectful by not going into detail?   To say that Danny ADMITTED to not having biblical grounds for divorce is so far from the truth, it is actually a lie.  I have noticed Mr. Pickle that you say what you need to where you need to, to fit the situation. For instance.  I have read numerous times where you have accused Danny of trashing his ex wife on the air and trying to ruin her reputation by saying she committed adultery.  Then, as in your more recent post, you say he ADMITS only spiritual adultery.  I'm confused.  If he ADMITS it was only spiritual adultery then how could he, at other times, trash her by accusing her of "actual" adultery?  If Danny and the board have evidence then certainly Danny had biblical grounds for remarriage, and he nor the board owe Linda or anyone else an apology for their actions.

Hi Sam/Dan/Whoever

Are you forgetting Linda's requests; no DEMANDS that Danny/3abn/Board etc publicly furnish any/all the evidence that anyone has that she committed - be that 'spiritual adultery' (whatever that means) or any other kind of adultery they can make up. Not once, has anyone come forward and provided the evidence that Linda herself has called for. That seems rather strange. 

So you are saying that because forum members or Mr. Pickle and Joy haven't seen it, it doesn't exist?  To me, that seems rather strange.

2. Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject.  I know this will be hard for you but, moving past that, your allegation against Danny is that he "covered up" molestation.  I have a few opinions myself on the subject.
First from what I have read and heard, your accusation of pedophilia is way out of line.  But, to get to the main point, there are other possible scenerio's besides a "cover up."  Did it ever occur to you that maybe Danny repeated to Walt Thompson the information that he had heard and believed?  Or, that Danny may have had knowledge of some mistakes (not pedophilia) made in the very distant past but knew (or thought) that the problems had been resolved and had no reason to believe that during the time of Tommy's 3abn employment that anything was amiss?  As far as I can tell that is an accurate assumption.  The employment time is all Danny would be responsible for.  I would sure hate to hold the head of any organization accountable for any mistakes or sins that their employees had made through their lifetimes.  Ha, there wouldn't be any companies left.

But you are forgetting that Tommy's employment with 3abn was supposed to be terminated back in the early 90's because of his behaviour. Another   Did you just happen to forget that? Can't accept such a lame excuse for thinking that pedophilia just doesn't matter.

No, not forgetting. You can't forget something that never happened. I understand that was just another rumor. I believe Dr. Thompson made it clear some time ago that particular accusation was false and Tommy was never fired back in the early 90's.  Did you somehow overlook that?

3. You are a broken record on private inurment also.  Yet I have read from some of the posters say that attorney's and auditors have been through the records and handled the transactions at the time, and have found everything above board.  Yet, you seem to think you have some insight that they do not.  If the IRS clears 3abn will you also claim insight that they don't have?

I reckon that any person who has donated to 3abn has the right to accurate and timely accountability. Is that such a strange expectation?

A timely accountability means a record and receipt given to those who have donated.  It doesn't mean to open a ministries books to 2 men that are already spreading rumors and untruths.  I read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men under the same circumstances.

4. You are constantly referring now to the "stupid" lawsuit and what a terrible thing it is that 3abn filed one against you.  This is what I get from the forums, emails you have made public and comments from both sides.

For whatever reason, you became involved in questioning some things you had heard about 3abn.  Personal things, financial things... So you and Joy, complete strangers try or do contact Danny with your very personal questions while all the time, already repeating stories and accusations that you had been told.  Danny then, began to get phone calls that you guys were trouble and couldn't be trusted and were working with Linda to try and hurt 3abn. ( I read that somewhere.)  So Danny decided 1. all you were doing was repeating tales, 2. who were you to be cross examining him or 3abn in the first place.  You and Joy began to make phone calls and send emails to people you had been told had problems with 3abn/Danny/the board and began to collect their stories.  You repeated publicly all the stories you were told. With no evidence, I might add.  Yet, all the while, you were proclaiming your desire to "save" a ministry.  To do that, IYO, most of administration would have to be wiped out.  Soon your accusations spread to anyone that has had anything to do with 3abn.  Their personal lives, their families, to you everyone was and is fair game.  I am still looking for the justification of trashing those that support 3abn, Shelton family members, family members of the board of directors, to try and "save" 3abn.  The trashing of so many other people's reputations has nothing to do with the 3abn ministry and your claim to "save it." What it does have to do with is developing hate and bitterness as you have progressed on your "unholy" mission.  You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it.  If your "sources" told you that John Doe was involved in thievery 10 years ago, expose it. Expose them, whether they are guilty or not. If someone told it to you, then obviously you feel it your obligation to make it public.  Doesn't matter how much or how little exposure to 3abn John Doe had or how many years ago he "allegedly" stole something, broadcast it. Make it public.  Even though, you can't prove it and are doing nothing but passing along gossip around the water cooler.

Remember that Danny/3abn didn't want this all sorted out quietly with ASI or the GC. No. It was they who instigated the 'stupid' lawsuit. It is they who decided to 'sue their Christian brethren'.

No I don't remember. I remember that Danny/3abn were quite willing to allow ASI to mediate but low and behold ASI put out a public statement that Mrs. Shelton's side were not willing to follow all the rules and guidelines.  Surely you have read that statement as that is one of the many things that Mr. Pickle and Joy have published.  To read that statement and then declare that Danny/3abn didn't want to go through ASI is incomprehensible to me.
 

That isn't even mentioning the fact that you created a website called "save" 3abn so that many times when people were searching the net for the "real" 3abn ministry they accidentally fell into the black pit that you had created for public consumption.

So as time went on and your allegations and accusations became more and more serious and you continued to state these allegations as facts to anyone who would listen, 3abn finally decided to take action and file a lawsuit for defamation, copyright, and whatever else they filed for.  And...you were, shocked, offended, horrified and clueless as to why they would take action???

Somehow you expect the general Adventist public to believe your actions are trying to "save" 3abn?  That you are following biblical principal? And that big, bad scary 3abn is trying to nail 2 poor little men who were only trying to help them?

You have to be kidding.

No kidding Mate. Nothing could be more fair-dinkum than this was the way to go to expose to the 'stockholders in the pews' just the raketeering that was going on. I wonder how many dear, little, old ladies donated all their life savings to support 3abn and give DS a lifestyle of ease, while others went without? The website provoked sufficient people for them to realise that there was something very much wrong, and people needed to investigate for themselves, just what was happening at the so-called 'face of Adventism headquarters', which later stated that they were nondenominational. Would the people have known that 3abn would state that they were not affiliated with any Church or organisation, if this had not been brought to light? I think not.

Now see?  Here you are, I presume, a complete stranger to 3abn/Danny/members of the board, throwing around words like "rackateering". People like you who are gullible enough to swallow every rumor, innuendo, second and third hand stories that have been thrown out, are exactly the reason that Mr. Pickle and Joy are in litigation.  Their information has made you throw out allegations of "rackateering".  You also just stated that as if it were a fact. If you look at the tax statements and the salary figures that the President has made over the last 23 years, I believe it is obvious that no President of 3abn has lived a "lifestyle of ease".  In fact, it was several years before the President made much of anything.  Danny, Jim G, or anyone else that runs 3abn have not been compensated enough for running an organization of that size.  I cannot imagine the responsibility of continually having to raise funds to support 175 workers worldwide, pay for endless satellite time, deal with an unrealistic travel schedule, deal with huge contracts for cable and UHF stations, and a million other details that I have no knowledge or comprehension of but, is part of that job.  I wouldn't do it for all the money in the world, much less for the salaries these guys have worked for.

Your comments make me think that you will be "in a pickle" if the IRS clears 3abn.

[Artiste]

I cannot imagine the responsibility of continually having to raise funds to support 175 workers worldwide, pay for endless satellite time, deal with an unrealistic travel schedule, deal with huge contracts for cable and UHF stations, and a million other details that I have no knowledge or comprehension of but, is part of that job.

Amazing, Sam, you seem to know quite a bit about the "details that you have no knowledge or comprehension of"!

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Responses in green:

So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.

Just a few questions to clarify.  Please provide only direct answers to the specific questions.

We all know if you are given a clearance by the IRS....YOU ARE CLEARED.  Meaning the IRS is known for finding things when their really isn't anything to find. So, if they clear you, you can be sure you are squeaky clean.  My question?

What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing?  That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..

Answer: Such a finding is extremely unlikely given the weight of the evidence, however, there is a difference between Criminal Penalty and a consent decree that would allow 3ABN by negotiation, and most likely a very hefty fine, to make appropriate changes and move on a reformed entity. I have stated before that a consent decree, if 3ABN were pro-active, was a likely possibility...after all the IRS is about collecting money.

If such a move were made than Federal Subpoena's would have to issue to request supporting documents and a summary of findings with an explanation of the disposition. Obviously, a depositon of the IRS Criminal Investigations coordinator would be critical and would likely be followed by a subpoena to testify before the jury in a civil case.

A Consent Decree and Fine would not by any shake of the imagination constitute a conclusion of "squeeky clean" or "cleared" from a civil standpoint. O.J. Simpson was able to squeek out a "not guilty" from a criminal jury and failed to evade a very large civil judgment in a civil trial.

IMO if that happens that would mean a large number of stories you have repeated, as well as, your own take on what constitutes private inurment, mishandling of funds and on and on would be totally incorrect. Without merit.  Down the tube.  In  other words, your opinions and your sources opinions aren't worth a dime compared to the IRS.  If your financial allegations are proven false then think how many other accusations you have made that could be in error also.  Several come to mind.

1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce.  I have found that to be totally false.  Because the "board" mentioned spiritual adultery does that "rule out" they had no knowledge of "actual" adultery?  I think not.  I believe the board acted respectfully by not airing the sordid details.  If and I say If, Danny referred to spriritual adultery does that also mean he doesn't have evidence of actual adultery and again, was being respectful by not going into detail?   To say that Danny ADMITTED to not having biblical grounds for divorce is so far from the truth, it is actually a lie.  I have noticed Mr. Pickle that you say what you need to where you need to, to fit the situation. For instance.  I have read numerous times where you have accused Danny of trashing his ex wife on the air and trying to ruin her reputation by saying she committed adultery.  Then, as in your more recent post, you say he ADMITS only spiritual adultery.  I'm confused.  If he ADMITS it was only spiritual adultery then how could he, at other times, trash her by accusing her of "actual" adultery?  If Danny and the board have evidence then certainly Danny had biblical grounds for remarriage, and he nor the board owe Linda or anyone else an apology for their actions.

Answer: Their are several e-mails from Danny Lee Shelton that will demonstrate his own admission that he knew Linda nor he had biblical grounds ofr divorce or remarriage. I have even seen defenders, including Danny, assert he never claimed there was "spiritual adultery" yet we have a spcific e-mail that specifically asserts "spiritual adultery. WE DO NOT LIE!!!

And since when did Danny Lee Shelton not want to exonerate and demonstrate his full deck. If the evidence was conclusive, there woud have been a website and the evidence would be on discplay for all the world to see, particularly with the pressure they are under.

The fact is the board has no such ecclesiatical authority to determine if Danny Lee Shelton had biblical grounds for remarriage. In fact, the Board has never even held a hearing with the accused party, Linda Sue Shelton, present to defend herself or to rebut the evidence and come to such a conclusion.

In the United States it is an accepted rule of law that one has the right to face ones accusers and to rebut the evidence. That was not done before Miller's small committee nor was it done before the Board of Directors. And whenever there has been a demand, even by the accused, Linda Sue Shelton, to role out the evidence, it just never appears. But, the slithery miscreants do not have any problem takling to third parties, including General Conference Staff, the many people in Walla Walla and a dozen other places, BEHIND LINDA's BACK. In other words, ASSASINATION IS THE WAY OF CHRISTIANITY IN THE 3ABN BOARD. 
Hardly an exemplary conduct for 3ABN, Danny Lee Shelton or it's Board of rubber stampers and character assasins.

2. Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject.  I know this will be hard for you but, moving past that, your allegation against Danny is that he "covered up" molestation.  I have a few opinions myself on the subject.
First from what I have read and heard, your accusation of pedophilia is way out of line.  But, to get to the main point, there are other possible scenerio's besides a "cover up."  Did it ever occur to you that maybe Danny repeated to Walt Thompson the information that he had heard and believed?  Or, that Danny may have had knowledge of some mistakes (not pedophilia) made in the very distant past but knew (or thought) that the problems had been resolved and had no reason to believe that during the time of Tommy's 3abn employment that anything was amiss?  As far as I can tell that is an accurate assumption.  The employment time is all Danny would be responsible for.  I would sure hate to hold the head of any organization accountable for any mistakes or sins that their employees had made through their lifetimes.  Ha, there wouldn't be any companies left.

Answer: Again, SAM, the weight of the evidence is OVERWHELMING and Danny has been a player in cover-up and ignoring the problem while the brother was a 3ABN employee. Now, that is serious stuff and if you do not believe so, consider the mess the Catholic Church faces from so many years back. In fact, much of it within the same time period. 

If there were any evidence that there had been true confession, repentance and reform was demonstrated, you might be in the ballpark...but, you strike out yet again.

Not only is the confession, repentance and reform absolutely missing, but he lands back at 3ABN after having been sent packing, following even more incidents in his second parsonage. And then the real irony is that Linda is caste aside without proof and without a hearing and Danny Lee Shelton replaces her with a none SDA pastor and severely damaged career repeatedly charged with homosexual behavious and allegations of pedophilia, right back from whence he was was sent packing. Nespotism clearly must be alive and well at 3ABN. 

I am so convinced this is true we are currently working on ways to bring Tommy Lee Shelton back into the case so he can have his day in court.


3. You are a broken record on private inurment also.  Yet I have read from some of the posters say that attorney's and auditors have been through the records and handled the transactions at the time, and have found everything above board.  Yet, you seem to think you have some insight that they do not.  If the IRS clears 3abn will you also claim insight that they don't have?

Objection, repetitive, see answer to your out of order first question, otherwise I would point out that those same auditors that purportedly gave 3ABN a clean bill of health have refused to produce documents requested that would presumably prove your grossly inaccurate assumption to be true. BUT, WE ARE GOING TO MOTION THE COURT TO COMPEL THE PRODUCTION and then we will just see what
auditors with conflicts of interest really had to say and what they failed to say.

4. You are constantly referring now to the "stupid" lawsuit and what a terrible thing it is that 3abn filed one against you.  This is what I get from the forums, emails you have made public and comments from both sides.

For whatever reason, you became involved in questioning some things you had heard about 3abn.  Personal things, financial things... So you and Joy, complete strangers try or do contact Danny with your very personal questions while all the time, already repeating stories and accusations that you had been told.  Danny then, began to get phone calls that you guys were trouble and couldn't be trusted and were working with Linda to try and hurt 3abn. ( I read that somewhere.)  So Danny decided 1. all you were doing was repeating tales, 2. who were you to be cross examining him or 3abn in the first place.  You and Joy began to make phone calls and send emails to people you had been told had problems with 3abn/Danny/the board and began to collect their stories.  You repeated publicaly all the stories you were told. With no evidence, I might add.  Yet, all the while, you were proclaiming your desire to "save" a ministry.  To do that, IYO, most of administration would have to be wiped out.  Soon your accusations spread to anyone that has had anything to do with 3abn.  Their personal lives, their families, to you everyone was and is fair game.  I am still looking for the justification of trashing those that support 3abn, Shelton family members, family members of the board of directors, to try and "save" 3abn.  The trashing of so many other people's reputations has nothing to do with the 3abn ministry and your claim to "save it." What it does have to do with is developing hate and bitterness as you have progressed on your "unholy" mission.  You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it.  If your "sources" told you that John Doe was involved in thievery 10 years ago, expose it. Expose them, whether they are guilty or not. If someone told it to you, then obviously you feel it your obligation to make it public.  Doesn't matter how much or how little exposure to 3abn John Doe had or how many years ago he "allegedly" stole something, broadcast it. Make it public.  Even though, you can't prove it and are doing nothing but passing along gossip around the water cooler.

 That isn't even mentioning the fact that you created a website called "save" 3abn so that many times when people were searching the net for the "real" 3abn ministry they accidentally fell into the black pit that you had created for public consumption.

So as time went on and your allegations and accusations became more and more serious and you continued to state these allegations as facts to anyone who would listen, 3abn finally decided to take action and file a lawsuit for defamation, copyright, and whatever else they filed for.  And...you were, shocked, offended, horrified and clueless as to why they would take action???

Somehow you expect the general Adventist public to believe your actions are trying to "save" 3abn?  That you are following biblical principal? And that big, bad scary 3abn is trying to nail 2 poor little men who were only trying to help them?

You have to be kidding.

Answer: Your synopsis is so seriously flawed in so many aspects it is hardly worth an answer. We have given the history and it is not unlike so many that go before, whether it be Davenport, Pawtucket Health Institute, Boston Regional, etc. The names and faces are differenct but the general issues remain the same.

YOUR PROBLEM CONTINUES TO BE THAT YOU CANNOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN HISTORY AND GOSSIP...and I beg to differ, but the evidence has been so frequently given it leaves you FACTUALLY CHALLENGED.

Look, you know as well as we do that if there had not been smoke long before we showed up and there was any real evidence to support the allegations of Danny Lee Shelton, the "stockholders in the pews" would not have responded, but apparently they did and apparently for good reason long before a website and long before my first e-mail to the directors. Your problem is administrative arrogance and the refusal to open your eyes to the reality. You need the salve of Laodicea.
Then wake up and smell the roses. In the meantime, keep the flame alive in Sesser so we can continue to respond to your inquiry. Great way to role out the truth.

I would also encourage you to attend the trial. The evidence should be quite revealing and I doubt you are on the winning team. Besides, 3ABN just doesn't seem to have any luck in the judiciary.

Keep up the great effort and I look forward to the opprotunity to respond to your next outrage.

Gailon Arthur Joy

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Quote

Hi Sam/Dan/Whoever

Are you forgetting Linda's requests; no DEMANDS that Danny/3abn/Board etc publicly furnish any/all the evidence that anyone has that she committed - be that 'spiritual adultery' (whatever that means) or any other kind of adultery they can make up. Not once, has anyone come forward and provided the evidence that Linda herself has called for. That seems rather strange. 

"So you are saying that because forum members or Mr. Pickle and Joy haven't seen it, it doesn't exist?  To me, that seems rather strange." SAM

SO, SAM, have you seen any of this mysterious evidence? If so, tell us what you saw.

Gailon Arthur Joy