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[Bob Pickle]

Ellen White told us that if we don't deal with issues, they just get worse.

Reddogs, if Garwin is supportive of the lawsuit rather than opposing it, then for the GC to deal with the mess carries particular financial and political risks.

That is another reason why I think it is crucial for Garwin, Denzil, and Donna to break their silence and come out solidly in opposition to the cover up of allegations of pedophilia, and to ASI discrimination and retaliatory lawsuits against those concerned about allegations of pedophilia. Imagine the PR nightmare if folks get the idea, right or wrong, that our top church officials were intimidated into silence regarding vile sin by a family that is supposed to be conservative.

Adventist organizations and individuals that fund schools and orphanages must be above reproach, and cannot be perceived as defending the cover up of allegations of pedophilia, in my opinion. It makes a mockery of Seventh-day Adventism when we can preach so strong about the 4th commandment and yet retaliate against those who are concerned about some of the most vile violations of the 7th commandment.

[Lil Star]

Excuse me, but DUH!!!!!!!

Only 12 pages

Some people it takes hours and hours and hours to learn something new. It's like that old saying, you can't teach a dog new tricks.    Or....... Can you? 

[Mary Sue Smith]

We should not hastily credit evil reports. These are often the result of envy or misunderstanding, or they may proceed from exaggeration or a partial disclosure of facts. Jealousy and suspicion, once allowed a place, will sow themselves broadcast, like thistle-down....

A glance, a word, even an intonation of the voice, may be vital with falsehood, sinking like a barbed arrow into some heart, inflicting an incurable wound. Thus a doubt, a reproach, may be cast upon one by whom God would accomplish a good work, and his influence is blighted, his usefulness destroyed.

Among some species of animals, if one of their number is wounded, and falls, he is at once set upon and torn in pieces by his fellows. The same cruel spirit is indulged by men and women who bear the name of christians. They manifest a Pharisaical zeal to stone others less guilty than themselves. There are some, who point to others' faults and failures to divert attention from their own, or to gain credit for great zeal for God and the church.

The tongue that delights in mischief, the babbling tongue that says, Report, and I will report it, is declared by the apostle James to be set on fire of hell. It scatters fire-brands on every side.  What cares the vender of gossip that he defames the innocent? He will not stay his evil work, though he destroy hope and courage in those who are already sinking under their burdens. He cares only to indulge his scandal-loving propensity. Even professed Christians close their eyes to all that is pure, honest, noble, and lovely, and treasure up whatever is objectionable and disagreeable, and publish it to the world.....

You have yourselves thrown upon the doors for Satan to come in.  You have given him an honored place at your investigation, or inquisition meetings...Jealous, revengeful tongues have colored acts and motives, to suit their own ideas. They have made black appear white and white black.

5T 57-60

To all those who are reading on this site. Please prayerfully consider what the Lord hath said.

[Bob Pickle]

Hey, be easy on reddogs. It not infrequently happens that those who find these things hard to believe, after careful reflection begin to see the seriousness of it all, and wish for a speedy resolution.

Junebug, what you have quoted is very true. Would you care to explain how you think it fits the present discussion?

For example, when I stated that ASI discriminated in regards to membership against someone concerned about child molestation allegations, I do not believe that is an exaggeration. When I stated that McNeilus money has helped fund the retaliatory lawsuit against those concerned about allegations of pedophilia, I do not believe that is an exaggeration.

The lawsuit is over a year old now, the discrimination by ASI is nearing a year old, the exposure of Danny's cover up of the child molestation allegations is nearing a year and a half old. How long are we to keep silent about these serious, serious matters?

[Artiste]

So one way or another they are going to get hit with a emberrasing exposure of the issue, might as well sidestep ASI  and let the GC come in and take care of the 3ABN issues before it gets to the government level, and we see Adventist being led by handcuffs on national evening news.

If we bite the bullet and take care of it now, it causes much less harm and publicity which can only cause further pain and suffering for all involved, but the GC executive committee needs to be given the documentation directly and take care of this or it will only get worse. But I do not everyone inflaming the issue with any emotional or unsubtatiated rumors is needed or should be done and should be set aside as we are all Christians...

Red

The GC has been both invited and urged in various ways to help with this situation.

They were were supplied with the facts several years ago, before most "stockholders in the pews" were aware of any problems.

[bonnie]

We should not hastily credit evil reports. These are often the result of envy or misunderstanding, or they may proceed from exaggeration or a partial disclosure of facts. Jealousy and suspicion, once allowed a place, will sow themselves broadcast, like thistle-down....

A glance, a word, even an intonation of the voice, may be vital with falsehood, sinking like a barbed arrow into some heart, inflicting an incurable wound. Thus a doubt, a reproach, may be cast upon one by whom God would accomplish a good work, and his influence is blighted, his usefulness destroyed.

Among some species of animals, if one of their number is wounded, and falls, he is at once set upon and torn in pieces by his fellows. The same cruel spirit is indulged by men and women who bear the name of christians. They manifest a Pharisaical zeal to stone others less guilty than themselves. There are some, who point to others' faults and failures to divert attention from their own, or to gain credit for great zeal for God and the church.

The tongue that delights in mischief, the babbling tongue that says, Report, and I will report it, is declared by the apostle James to be set on fire of hell. It scatters fire-brands on every side.  What cares the vender of gossip that he defames the innocent? He will not stay his evil work, though he destroy hope and courage in those who are already sinking under their burdens. He cares only to indulge his scandal-loving propensity. Even professed Christians close their eyes to all that is pure, honest, noble, and lovely, and treasure up whatever is objectionable and disagreeable, and publish it to the world.....

You have yourselves thrown upon the doors for Satan to come in.  You have given him an honored place at your investigation, or inquisition meetings...Jealous, revengeful tongues have colored acts and motives, to suit their own ideas. They have made black appear white and white black.

5T 57-60

To all those who are reading on this site. Please prayerfully consider what the Lord hath said.

Those who post rather ambiguous partial statements dealing with an issue would do better and maybe have a clearer picture of the whole picture of instruction and counsel, biblically and by EW by reading and using all in their assesment of the sins of others
The following is a good example of finger pointing and accusations against some, without really being called that.

After all, who can argue with scripture and EW, even if only a small portion of "the instruction and comments "dealing with an issue are used.

This looks very much as if those here are being told, they delight in mischief,gossip and defaming the innocent. Who by the way, have you declared to be the innocent, and what knowledge do you have?
Who is indulging in scandel loving propensity?
This could however be point to certain parties, describe what appears to be where this began, without so mucf as a blink or concern from those now so concerned

The tongue that delights in mischief, the babbling tongue that says, Report, and I will report it, is declared by the apostle James to be set on fire of hell. It scatters fire-brands on every side.  What cares the vender of gossip that he defames the innocent? He will not stay his evil work, though he destroy hope and courage in those who are already sinking under their burdens. He cares only to indulge his scandal-loving propensity. Even professed Christians close their eyes to all that is pure, honest, noble, and lovely, and treasure up whatever is objectionable and disagreeable, and publish it to the world.....

[Artiste]

If we bite the bullet and take care of it now, it causes much less harm and publicity which can only cause further pain and suffering for all involved, but the GC executive committee needs to be given the documentation directly and take care of this or it will only get worse. But I do not everyone inflaming the issue with any emotional or unsubtatiated rumors is needed or should be done and should be set aside as we are all Christians...

Red

Reddogs, on what basis do you characterize what is being discussed on this 3ABN forum as rumors?

Have you considered the possibility that all this has been documented?

I believe that it is easy to sit back, take a judgemental but uneducated view of a complex situation, and congratulate yourself that you are promoting a "Christian" viewpoint.

Meanwhile human beings that God created are left suffering from the policies and actions over the years of 3ABN and wondering why not many care enough to take their side.

[bonnie]

Hey, be easy on reddogs. It not infrequently happens that those who find these things hard to believe, after careful reflection begin to see the seriousness of it all, and wish for a speedy resolution.

You are quite right. Except before others are accused of blasphemy,doing the work of satan etc,it would serve all well, if that "reflection" took place first.

[Bob Pickle]

Of course it would be better, by if we are too hard on the wavering, we might drive them away at the very time they are considering being supportive.

[reddogs]

Hey, be easy on reddogs. It not infrequently happens that those who find these things hard to believe, after careful reflection begin to see the seriousness of it all, and wish for a speedy resolution.

Junebug, what you have quoted is very true. Would you care to explain how you think it fits the present discussion?

For example, when I stated that ASI discriminated in regards to membership against someone concerned about child molestation allegations, I do not believe that is an exaggeration. When I stated that McNeilus money has helped fund the retaliatory lawsuit against those concerned about allegations of pedophilia, I do not believe that is an exaggeration.

The lawsuit is over a year old now, the discrimination by ASI is nearing a year old, the exposure of Danny's cover up of the child molestation allegations is nearing a year and a half old. How long are we to keep silent about these serious, serious matters?

Bob,

Dont worry about me, I'll wade through a swamp full of alligators to help a brother or sister, a few bites here and there dont worry me....

But the 3ABN is a issue that needs to be dealt with calmly and using facts, the devil knows our weaknesses and plays to them especially on a emotional issue like this. We must not allow us to be drawn in and used to attack with emotions and out of feelings rather than facts. As you can see if things are explained factually as you Bob have done, it is easy to understand, but if rumors and hearsay are used, it leads to nowhere and only causes more harm and agitation. If we consider ourselves as Christian, then we must conduct ourselves accordingly, and follow what Christ commands....

Your Brother in Christ
Red

[bonnie]

Of course it would be better, by if we are too hard on the wavering, we might drive them away at the very time they are considering being supportive.

I have no quarrel with that premise at all. It is the guns blazing in accusations from the get go. The very accusations they are speaking so stridently against.

[bonnie]

.

Bob,

Dont worry about me, I'll wade through a swamp full of alligators to help a brother or sister, a few bites here and there dont worry me....

But the 3ABN is a issue that needs to be dealt with calmly and using facts, the devil knows our weaknesses and plays to them especially on a emotional issue like this. We must not allow us to be drawn in and used to attack with emotions and out of feelings rather than facts. As you can see if things are explained factually as you Bob have done, it is easy to understand, but if rumors and hearsay are used, it leads to nowhere and only causes more harm and agitation. If we consider ourselves as Christian, then we must conduct ourselves accordingly, and follow what Christ commands....

Your Brother in Christ
Red

reddogs,

Questions ,asking for an explaination, before you determine someone is guilty of hearsy and gossip, is the christian thing to do. From the beginnig of this topic that was not done.
Accusations were made against others,in direct contrast to the biblical advice you were quoting.

We must not allow us to be drawn in and used to attack with emotions and out of feelings rather than facts. This is what you should have had before throwing terms like blasphemy around.


It is always helpful to have those that express enough of an interest to find out what the facts are and share a concern.
What makes it difficult is when the accusations come first

[Bob Pickle]

reddogs, when I first took a look at this stuff in the summer of 2006 because of the concerns of a friend, it was interesting trying to identify allegations or details that could potentially be verified.

What I found particularly helpful was to identify statements that incriminated the individual themselves. Thus, if Danny in July 2004 almost a month after the divorce did not know whether or not Linda had committed fornication with the doctor, as he stated in an email, then by his own admission he did not divorce her on biblical grounds.

Probably some of this has come across as rumor and hearsay when it really hasn't been, due to the dynamics of the situation.

[reddogs]

.

Bob,

Dont worry about me, I'll wade through a swamp full of alligators to help a brother or sister, a few bites here and there dont worry me....

But the 3ABN is a issue that needs to be dealt with calmly and using facts, the devil knows our weaknesses and plays to them especially on a emotional issue like this. We must not allow us to be drawn in and used to attack with emotions and out of feelings rather than facts. As you can see if things are explained factually as you Bob have done, it is easy to understand, but if rumors and hearsay are used, it leads to nowhere and only causes more harm and agitation. If we consider ourselves as Christian, then we must conduct ourselves accordingly, and follow what Christ commands....

Your Brother in Christ
Red

reddogs,

Questions ,asking for an explaination, before you determine someone is guilty of hearsy and gossip, is the christian thing to do. From the beginnig of this topic that was not done.
Accusations were made against others,in direct contrast to the biblical advice you were quoting.

We must not allow us to be drawn in and used to attack with emotions and out of feelings rather than facts. This is what you should have had before throwing terms like blasphemy around.


It is always helpful to have those that express enough of an interest to find out what the facts are and share a concern.
What makes it difficult is when the accusations come first

I am not quite sure where you got the blasphemy part from as here is my original post...

Should Christians gossip and pass on hear-say?


Gossip and hear-say are on the same level as God-haters and the faithless to say nothing of the other things that it is compared to that Paul goes over.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:28-32

2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.

1 Timothy 5:13
Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.

Proverbs 26:20
Without wood a fire goes out; without gossip a quarrel dies down.

So what is the opposite of these things that we should be doing, well Paul says it at the begining of Romans 1:

1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. 7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
11I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. Romans 1:1-12

I think that is something to think about, to mutually encourage each other is what we should be doing, not looking at each others weak points and seeing how to tear each other down....

[reddogs]

reddogs, when I first took a look at this stuff in the summer of 2006 because of the concerns of a friend, it was interesting trying to identify allegations or details that could potentially be verified.

What I found particularly helpful was to identify statements that incriminated the individual themselves. Thus, if Danny in July 2004 almost a month after the divorce did not know whether or not Linda had committed fornication with the doctor, as he stated in an email, then by his own admission he did not divorce her on biblical grounds.

Probably some of this has come across as rumor and hearsay when it really hasn't been, due to the dynamics of the situation.

Well as a outside observer none of this looks good from any viewpoint, and the faster it can be taken care of the better.....