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[Bob Pickle]

This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results.

Agreed. Yet in this situation we did that and there were no positive results.

I have personally spoken to Walt Thompson that I thought it was wrong for them to keep us in the dark for 10 weeks about the board's decision in September 2006 to not allow ASI to look into the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations, when the church leader that got that process going understood that those allegations would be looked into. That is just one example of how those who have been in authority have not responded appropriately when concerns were brought to them.

It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, ...

Agreed. Absolutely. It is utterly senseless that this is dragging on for years. And that it could not be dealt with quietly.

... and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..

Maybe, maybe not. There are people out there who may end up with more respect for Seventh-day Adventists when they see that, while we bear long with the sinner, in the end we don't tolerate stuff like this.

When a strip club moved in north of here, into a town of 266, I did not keep quiet. There were quite a few people that really respected that. Of course, there were some that wished I hadn't said a word.

From an evangelistic standpoint, the people that are wistfully looking to heaven for light, I would think those are people that are looking for a church that has standards and principles, and that lives them. When we fail to address serious issues, we just may end up losing an evangelistic opportunity.

Those who claim to have personally been affected by Tommy Shelton have by and large appreciated that there have been folks who have stuck their necks out and dealt with the matter. One of them, as I recall, wrote, "Thank you SDA's!"

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..

God Bless
Red

Reddog, 3ABN is a closely held not for profit that, until 2007, had a Danny Lee Shelton picked board which  is the same as the entire membership... yup just 12 members handpicked were getting the support of nearly 100,000 Seventh-day Adventists, and Danny had his hands in the wallet.

Now, the only option when those twelve members reject the very clear message of error and refuse to meet with us was as simple as the nose on your face, we had to take the issue to the "stockholders in the pews", the source of support and allow them to make the ultimate decision. Any better ideas???

ANd don't give me the premise that we simply pray and the Lord will take care of it, because that is simply not biblical. God uses human instrumentality to accomplish His work on this earth and in fact it is a sin of ommission not to act when clear error is witnessed.

So, once again, get to it and get into the frey.

Gailon Arthur Joy

[Snoopy]

Great, Red!!  Why don't you contact 3ABN and make the suggestion?  Here's the number:     618-627-4651        Perhaps you can reach someone "in authority" and convince them to take action!!

This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..

God Bless
Red

[Habanero]

Hey Red, I agree with you. And as to the picture it paints of Christianity and Adventism, I know many people who are and have been associated with that organization. There are at least five people who I know personally who have been there for extended periods of time who left the church as a direct result of their time and experience, and some who are now agnostic because they feel that they have seen the true face of Christianity: manipulation of minds and hearts to accomplish the goals of individuals and groups. When the information that drove those people to that is made a little more public it will be a shame on Christianity and on Adventism in particular.

This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..

God Bless
Red

[reddogs]

Great, Red!!  Why don't you contact 3ABN and make the suggestion?  Here's the number:     618-627-4651        Perhaps you can reach someone "in authority" and convince them to take action!!

This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..

God Bless
Red

I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...

[Bob Pickle]

I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...

I personally have no problem with that idea, with the understanding that the GC Exec. Comm. has no legal control over 3ABN and cannot make any of its decisions. But they do have a bully pulpit.

However, I'm told that when church leadership tried to say something about some of the independent ministries, they ended up with a big backlash from angry conservatives. This time around they've decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.

Yet ASI had no control either. I was talking with a retired church leader in late 2006, and when I pointed out to him that whatever ASI decided regarding this mess couldn't be enforced due to 3ABN's governance structure, he realized the problem and said he didn't know what to do.

[Artiste]

Great, Red!!  Why don't you contact 3ABN and make the suggestion?  Here's the number:     618-627-4651        Perhaps you can reach someone "in authority" and convince them to take action!!

This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..

God Bless
Red

I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...

Ha-ha-ha reddogs, this would be even funnier if your naivete wasn't so clearly evident.

However, since you seem sincere, may I suggest that you do some background reading of the material that is still available on BlackSDA.  It might temper your criticisms of the way things are being handled now.

[Artiste]

However, I'm told that when church leadership tried to say something about some of the independent ministries, they ended up with a big backlash from angry conservatives. This time around they've decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.

Bob, what does this say about the Seventh-day Adventist Church leadership if they cannot use their "bully pupit" to denounce wrong and warn church members at large of the evils that have not been dealt with at 3ABN?  3ABN continues solicit funds from SDA church membership.

The church leadership caved in to the "backlash of angry conservatives", you say.

We have been listening to the laudable exhortatons from both you and Gailon and others to take a stand against wrong.

Why can't the Seventh-day Adventist Church leadership be held to the same standards?  

[reddogs]

I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...

I personally have no problem with that idea, with the understanding that the GC Exec. Comm. has no legal control over 3ABN and cannot make any of its decisions. But they do have a bully pulpit.

However, I'm told that when church leadership tried to say something about some of the independent ministries, they ended up with a big backlash from angry conservatives. This time around they've decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.

Yet ASI had no control either. I was talking with a retired church leader in late 2006, and when I pointed out to him that whatever ASI decided regarding this mess couldn't be enforced due to 3ABN's governance structure, he realized the problem and said he didn't know what to do.

Then the more urgent, as 3ABN from what you tell me, has been set up with no real oversight and in my view the GC Exec. Comm. has to weight in and bring some resolution or force the 3ABN board to handle this issue or put preasure on them to step down. 

3ABN is not what saves, and if it has to be reworked, the slate wiped clean, and people replaced, then lets do it. Christ should be the focus not a person, a program, or a issue, as it will just serve to distract and divide us.

[scratsmom]

I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...

I personally have no problem with that idea, with the understanding that the GC Exec. Comm. has no legal control over 3ABN and cannot make any of its decisions. But they do have a bully pulpit.

However, I'm told that when church leadership tried to say something about some of the independent ministries, they ended up with a big backlash from angry conservatives. This time around they've decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.

Yet ASI had no control either. I was talking with a retired church leader in late 2006, and when I pointed out to him that whatever ASI decided regarding this mess couldn't be enforced due to 3ABN's governance structure, he realized the problem and said he didn't know what to do.

Then the more urgent, as 3ABN from what you tell me, has been set up with no real oversight and in my view the GC Exec. Comm. has to weight in and bring some resolution or force the 3ABN board to handle this issue or put preasure on them to step down. 

3ABN is not what saves, and if it has to be reworked, the slate wiped clean, and people replaced, then lets do it. Christ should be the focus not a person, a program, or a issue, as it will just serve to distract and divide us.

Great idea, reddogs! Let the GC quietly clean up this "no oversight" mess---

OH WAIT!... 3ABN was not "set up" by the GC! It was started by a family, and has been purposefully kept separate from any accountability to the GC. The GC Exec committee does not pay salaries at 3ABN has never had the ability to "force" them to do anything, legally, and I am pretty sure that "stepping down" has been suggested already--you can see how well that worked.

Now are you seeing the picture? The "stockholders in the pews", the donors, are the only ones who can "force" a change here, and unless they know about it, they won't vote. How do they find out? Not on 3ABN. Not at their individual churches. Not in church magazines. About the only way the "slate will be wiped clean and people replaced" is the way it is happening. You said "lets do it". Well, you can thank Bob and Gailon that it is happening.

Some seem more upset that the "lurid details" are being aired than they are that there ARE any "lurid details". Me? I respect an organization that is willing to admit there are problems because then they can be addressed.

scratsmom   

[Bob Pickle]

I agree, reddogs.

Now that conversation of late 2006 comes back a little more. My point at the time was that the 3ABN Board refused to deal with the issues, and that's why the ASI tribunal idea was being tried. But, if the 3ABN Board's refusal to deal with the issues was what led to ASI having to consider getting involved, then it could also refuse to follow ASI's recommendations. And thus the whole process would accomplish nothing.

Then couple that with Danny's telling me that he intended to use a positive decision from ASI regarding the Linda situation to say, "See, everything else is lies too," and you have a pretty bad outlook.

Why did I go public in late 2006 with Walt's information regarding what Danny had told him about the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations? Our understanding at the time was that the IRS criminal investigation was advancing rapidly. From an apologetic standpoint, it seemed to me that if the Feds had a press conference explaining the situation, it wouldn't put Adventism in a good light. It seemed to me that from an apologetic standpoint it might be better for Adventists to blow the whistle rather than the world, for the impression could then be left that Adventists in the end don't tolerate corruption.

Whether right or wrong on that, time will tell, but that's why I did what I did. Meanwhile, the IRS did move in last September, and time will also tell whether or not they will have a press conference and announce an indictment. And if they do, a reporter somewhere may contact me. My only dilemma is whether I can honestly say that we don't tolerate corruption, when ASI discriminates in the matter of membership against those who blow the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when ASI is scared to put into writing what the basis of their membership denial was, when McNeilus money has helped to fund a retaliatory lawsuit against those who blew the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when Garwin thinks that our sitting down with the 3ABN Board to share our concerns would be a waste of time, and such.

So I am in a real pickle to know what I can really, honestly say.

Now if ASI leadership and Garwin McNeilus would come out publicly and denounce pedophilia, the cover up of allegations of pedophilia, retaliatory lawsuits against those concerned about pedophilia, and discrimination against those concerned about pedophilia, I would feel much more comfortable in saying that the Adventist Church doesn't tolerate this kind of stuff. Particularly since ASI gets its tax exempt status from the NAD, and thus there is no way to separate ASI from the denomination.

Like I've said before, Garwin's dad was a friend of mine. I think it is absolutely weird that Garwin, Denzil, and Donna would not oppose a retaliatory lawsuit against people concerned about pedophilia. It is totally weird. Their silence and/or participation in this whole travesty thus far is just plain weird. The McNeilus family is supposed to be conservative. ASI is supposed to be conservative. How in the world can they be involved on the wrong side of this mess?

[bonnie]

I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...

I personally have no problem with that idea, with the understanding that the GC Exec. Comm. has no legal control over 3ABN and cannot make any of its decisions. But they do have a bully pulpit.

However, I'm told that when church leadership tried to say something about some of the independent ministries, they ended up with a big backlash from angry conservatives. This time around they've decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.

Yet ASI had no control either. I was talking with a retired church leader in late 2006, and when I pointed out to him that whatever ASI decided regarding this mess couldn't be enforced due to 3ABN's governance structure, he realized the problem and said he didn't know what to do.

Then the more urgent, as 3ABN from what you tell me, has been set up with no real oversight and in my view the GC Exec. Comm. has to weight in and bring some resolution or force the 3ABN board to handle this issue or put preasure on them to step down. 

3ABN is not what saves, and if it has to be reworked, the slate wiped clean, and people replaced, then lets do it. Christ should be the focus not a person, a program, or a issue, as it will just serve to distract and divide us.

What has suddenly become so urgent in your mind? For days you have been repeating the same refrain that is so familiar when worng doing or strong suspicion of wrong doing comes to the surface.
As a denomination we do many worthwhile acts. Oversight is not one of them. In fact we run from that word as....UNCHRISTIAN,ANGRY,REVENGE. With so many sitting in the pew willing to collude,cover and Forgive
that which is not theirs to forgive,why would you demand or expect the denomination to do anything?

The attitude that you have presented as how to deal with this, without knowing the facts, or taking time to educate yourself, is the very attitude taken by our denomination as a whole.

We are so heavenly minded, as in Christ will soon return and take care of all things, we are absolutely no earthly good.
Content to let all things slide, because of some good that is being done,if you can do better.....,protect the name of the church,forgive 7x70,oops, now you are angry,all have sinned,etc,etc,etc.

As a lifelong SDA I can think of many, many incidences that never would have had to see public light,if we weren't so afraid of oversight.

Oversight is a word we can't afford to explore to deeply. Maybe the denomination has no control here, but then I guess I would like an explaination of the conduct and approval by the Ill conference. I have forgotten all those involved, but it seems to me they are part of and under the umbrella of the denomination.

Once something reaches this level, the fix can be like playing pickup sticks, you just never know when you are pulling the wrong one


Any that pursue are classified as you have done here, page after page. Doing the work of satan etc.

[bonnie]

Whether right or wrong on that, time will tell, but that's why I did what I did. Meanwhile, the IRS did move in last September, and time will also tell whether or not they will have a press conference and announce an indictment. And if they do, a reporter somewhere may contact me. My only dilemma is whether I can honestly say that we don't tolerate corruption, when ASI discriminates in the matter of membership against those who blow the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when ASI is scared to put into writing what the basis of their membership denial was, when McNeilus money has helped to fund a retaliatory lawsuit against those who blew the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when Garwin thinks that our sitting down with the 3ABN Board to share our concerns would be a waste of time, and such.


Now if ASI leadership and Garwin McNeilus would come out publicly and denounce pedophilia, the cover up of allegations of pedophilia, retaliatory lawsuits against those concerned about pedophilia, and discrimination against those concerned about pedophilia, I would feel much more comfortable in saying that the Adventist Church doesn't tolerate this kind of stuff. Particularly since ASI gets its tax exempt status from the NAD, and thus there is no way to separate ASI from the denomination.

This is a dilemma??  Check the record of covering up the very same issues you list.

Interest cannot even be raised in prevention and education. We wait until we are in a mess, then we rush to forgive as "Christ forgave,writng quietly in the sand"

The problem being created now is to many people can connect and are no longer writing quietly

[reddogs]

I agree, reddogs.

Now that conversation of late 2006 comes back a little more. My point at the time was that the 3ABN Board refused to deal with the issues, and that's why the ASI tribunal idea was being tried. But, if the 3ABN Board's refusal to deal with the issues was what led to ASI having to consider getting involved, then it could also refuse to follow ASI's recommendations. And thus the whole process would accomplish nothing.

Then couple that with Danny's telling me that he intended to use a positive decision from ASI regarding the Linda situation to say, "See, everything else is lies too," and you have a pretty bad outlook.

Why did I go public in late 2006 with Walt's information regarding what Danny had told him about the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations? Our understanding at the time was that the IRS criminal investigation was advancing rapidly. From an apologetic standpoint, it seemed to me that if the Feds had a press conference explaining the situation, it wouldn't put Adventism in a good light. It seemed to me that from an apologetic standpoint it might be better for Adventists to blow the whistle rather than the world, for the impression could then be left that Adventists in the end don't tolerate corruption.

Whether right or wrong on that, time will tell, but that's why I did what I did. Meanwhile, the IRS did move in last September, and time will also tell whether or not they will have a press conference and announce an indictment. And if they do, a reporter somewhere may contact me. My only dilemma is whether I can honestly say that we don't tolerate corruption, when ASI discriminates in the matter of membership against those who blow the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when ASI is scared to put into writing what the basis of their membership denial was, when McNeilus money has helped to fund a retaliatory lawsuit against those who blew the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when Garwin thinks that our sitting down with the 3ABN Board to share our concerns would be a waste of time, and such.

So I am in a real pickle to know what I can really, honestly say.

Now if ASI leadership and Garwin McNeilus would come out publicly and denounce pedophilia, the cover up of allegations of pedophilia, retaliatory lawsuits against those concerned about pedophilia, and discrimination against those concerned about pedophilia, I would feel much more comfortable in saying that the Adventist Church doesn't tolerate this kind of stuff. Particularly since ASI gets its tax exempt status from the NAD, and thus there is no way to separate ASI from the denomination.

Like I've said before, Garwin's dad was a friend of mine. I think it is absolutely weird that Garwin, Denzil, and Donna would not oppose a retaliatory lawsuit against people concerned about pedophilia. It is totally weird. Their silence and/or participation in this whole travesty thus far is just plain weird. The McNeilus family is supposed to be conservative. ASI is supposed to be conservative. How in the world can they be involved on the wrong side of this mess?

Bob,

My read of what you are saying is that if we dont take care of this issue, the government agencies like the IRS or FBI will, and they will come in with the heavy hand and full blown press conferences and show 3ABN and by extension the Adventist church in a very bad light.

So one way or another they are going to get hit with a emberrasing exposure of the issue, might as well sidestep ASI  and let the GC come in and take care of the 3ABN issues before it gets to the government level, and we see Adventist being led by handcuffs on national evening news.

If we bite the bullet and take care of it now, it causes much less harm and publicity which can only cause further pain and suffering for all involved, but the GC executive committee needs to be given the documentation directly and take care of this or it will only get worse. But I do not everyone inflaming the issue with any emotional or unsubtatiated rumors is needed or should be done and should be set aside as we are all Christians...

Red

[bonnie]

My read of what you are saying is that if we dont take of this issue, the government agencies like the IRS or FBI will, and they will come in with the heavy hand and full blown press conferences and show 3ABN and by extension the Adventist church. So one way or another they are going to get hit with a emberrasing exposure of the issue, might as well let the GC come in and take care of the 3ABN issues before it gets to the government level, and we see Adventist being led by handcuffs on national evening news. If we bite the bullet and take care of it now, it causes much less harm and publicity which can only cause further pain and suffering for all involved, but the GC executive committee needs to be given the documentation and take care of this or it will only get worse.

Red

Excuse me, but DUH!!!!!!!

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