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[reddogs]

Should Christians gossip and pass on hear-say?


Gossip and hear-say are on the same level as God-haters and the faithless to say nothing of the other things that it is compared to that Paul goes over.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:28-32

2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.

1 Timothy 5:13
Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.

Proverbs 26:20
Without wood a fire goes out; without gossip a quarrel dies down.

So what is the opposite of these things that we should be doing, well Paul says it at the begining of Romans 1:

1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. 7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
11I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. Romans 1:1-12

I think that is something to think about, to mutually encourage each other is what we should be doing, not looking at each others weak points and seeing how to tear each other down....

[Habanero]

I guess you could be right. It is interesting how those who are doing great things in God's name defend the Lord's work and deal with corruption in low places by exposing sin through the spreading of stories and innuendo about people in a holy manner, but individuals who defend themselves and other people, and deal with corruption in high places engage in gossip and slander as they attack God's work. I recommend that we sing a chorus of "There is Beauty all Around," enjoy the great things being done in God's name, and avoid seeing things that might upset the Lord's work. But then of course all of that is just personal opinion that is not being stated as fact, and indeed could be completely wrong in whole or in part.

[bonnie]

reddogs,
Can you define what you mean by gossip or hearsy?
Is it an obligation to stop wrong doing,or to turn a blind eye and let it continue to harm others so as not to be seen as spreading gossip or hearsy?

[reddogs]

reddogs,
Can you define what you mean by gossip or hearsy?
Is it an obligation to stop wrong doing,or to turn a blind eye and let it continue to harm others so as not to be seen as spreading gossip or hearsy?

If it is your designation to oversee and/or are in charge of the institution or the employees/members, then you do your duty or job. Everyone else who is a close friend, their pastor, or has direct access to those doing wrong have a obligation as a Christian brother/sister to bring it up to them, then proceed through the steps as outlined in the scriptures. The rest need to leave it be, as gossip, hearsay, rumors, etc.. tend to get sensationilized and by their very nature only lead to more harm and no good will come of it..

Just so we are clear on what the issue is...
Main Entry: 1gos·sip 
Pronunciation: \?gä-s?p\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gossib, from Old English godsibb, from god god + sibb kinsman, from sibb related — more at sib
Date: before 12th century
1 adialect British : godparent b: companion, crony c: a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others
2 a: rumor or report of an intimate nature b: a chatty talk c: the subject matter of gossip

[bonnie]

Interesting

1.If it is your designation to oversee and/or are in charge of the institution or the employees/members, then you do your duty or job.

Aren't we all in charge of the employees. They exist and have a position in that capacity either "voted" in by members and/or are paid with our tithe dollar.


2. Everyone else who is a close friend, their pastor, or has direct access to those doing wrong have a obligation as a Christian brother/sister to bring it up to them, then proceed through the steps as outlined in the scriptures.

And when following scripture has been tried again and again, and the wrong doing that harms others continues, then what? Leave those that are guilty of wrong doing to committ more and more.
It can be very difficult for the one wronged and sees a need for change to accommplish that one on one. Usually the power is not with one



3.The rest need to leave it be, as gossip, hearsay, rumors, etc.. tend to get sensationilized and by their very nature only lead to more harm and no good will come of it..


This can and does happen of course. What I noticed that was left out of your statement is the responsibility for those suspected of wrong or committing the wrong doing is to be either open and upfront to quickly dispel the "gossip" and not tarnish what they claim to be about. Or admit the wrong doing, seek forgivness, make restitution where possible, and move on with a changed life.
Many times making the "rest aware" can lead to a change.



Just so we are clear on what the issue is...
Main Entry: 1gos·sip 
Pronunciation: \?gä-s?p\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gossib, from Old English godsibb, from god god + sibb kinsman, from sibb related — more at sib
Date: before 12th century
1 adialect British : godparent b: companion, crony c: a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others
2 a: rumor or report of an intimate nature b: a chatty talk c: the subject matter of gossip
[/quote]

[reddogs]

Now you are not the employer, you can have a say to the employer directly as you are members of the church or those in authority at all levels to pass on up, but to pass it amoung yourselves it gets distorted and turns into nothing but street level hearsay, and useless gossip. If that is what is being defended, then Pauls words apply, and they are strong and quite clear........

As to forcing a confession of responsibility out of a brother or sister, those who advocate that need think about it as they go over what scripture says....
Matthew 7:4
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Interesting

1.If it is your designation to oversee and/or are in charge of the institution or the employees/members, then you do your duty or job.

Aren't we all in charge of the employees. They exist and have a position in that capacity either "voted" in by members and/or are paid with our tithe dollar.


2. Everyone else who is a close friend, their pastor, or has direct access to those doing wrong have a obligation as a Christian brother/sister to bring it up to them, then proceed through the steps as outlined in the scriptures.

And when following scripture has been tried again and again, and the wrong doing that harms others continues, then what? Leave those that are guilty of wrong doing to committ more and more.
It can be very difficult for the one wronged and sees a need for change to accommplish that one on one. Usually the power is not with one



3.The rest need to leave it be, as gossip, hearsay, rumors, etc.. tend to get sensationilized and by their very nature only lead to more harm and no good will come of it..


This can and does happen of course. What I noticed that was left out of your statement is the responsibility for those suspected of wrong or committing the wrong doing is to be either open and upfront to quickly dispel the "gossip" and not tarnish what they claim to be about. Or admit the wrong doing, seek forgivness, make restitution where possible, and move on with a changed life.
Many times making the "rest aware" can lead to a change.



Just so we are clear on what the issue is...
Main Entry: 1gos·sip 
Pronunciation: \?gä-s?p\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gossib, from Old English godsibb, from god god + sibb kinsman, from sibb related — more at sib
Date: before 12th century
1 adialect British : godparent b: companion, crony c: a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others
2 a: rumor or report of an intimate nature b: a chatty talk c: the subject matter of gossip

[/quote]

[Bob Pickle]

So reddogs, is there ever a place for protesting against lying to cover up child molestation allegations, or divorcing without biblical grounds, matters that aren't hearsay or gossip, things that were done by someone who gets on my neighbor's TV and claims to them to be a Seventh-day Adventist?

And did I not go privately to Danny Shelton and Walt Thompson about the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations, and then after Walt asked me to verify the information he had given me, did I not go back to Danny Shelton again?

And now that Danny Shelton has sued in retaliation, thus dragging all this garbage into an extremely public sphere, and his refusal thus far to back down, is he not somewhat to blame for the ongoing publicity his lawsuit will receive?

Have you written Walt and Danny and similarly chastised them for spreading gossip and rumors about a number of us?

[bonnie]

1.Now you are not the employer, you can have a say to the employer directly as you are members of the church or those in authority at all levels to pass on up, but to pass it amoung yourselves it gets distorted and turns into nothing but street level hearsay, and useless gossip. If that is what is being defended, then Pauls words apply, and they are strong and quite clear........


Are you forgetting who employs the employer .What employers of the denomination do, present,claim represents all of us. Those that employ the employer

2.As to forcing a confession of responsibility out of a brother or sister, those who advocate that need think about it as they go over what scripture says....
Matthew 7:4

Please do not put words in my mouth. I said nothing about forcing a confession. We were discussing following scripture. When one side does and the other resists by demanding the other follow scripture, where does thats leave us? Excuse me,expecting responsibility and accountibility for actions is not unbiblical.


2.Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

I will assume you have a beam in your eye, or at the least a mote. Does this include the removal of that prior to chastising others for gossip


By the standards you have set out,if there is fraud, abuse,sexual/physical, lies, unless the guilty party or parties wishes to meet with you and act according to the scripture you have quoted, we need to accept the continuing, harmful conduct. Sounds a lot like business as usual

[reddogs]

So reddogs, is there ever a place for protesting against lying to cover up child molestation allegations, or divorcing without biblical grounds, matters that aren't hearsay or gossip, things that were done by someone who gets on my neighbor's TV and claims to them to be a Seventh-day Adventist?

And did I not go privately to Danny Shelton and Walt Thompson about the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations, and then after Walt asked me to verify the information he had given me, did I not go back to Danny Shelton again?

And now that Danny Shelton has sued in retaliation, thus dragging all this garbage into an extremely public sphere, and his refusal thus far to back down, is he not somewhat to blame for the ongoing publicity his lawsuit will receive?

Have you written Walt and Danny and similarly chastised them for spreading gossip and rumors about a number of us?

If that is your job or position or position to oversee 3ABN, then that is fine. That is what a person that directly connected to them or in charge needs to do. But these are not things that are thrown out for any person on the street to go over, that is not the Christ like manner that personal issues need to be dealt with, do you want all your secret sins bared before others that dont really care about you. Its not for us to drag a brother or sister out to be ridiculed and judged, we should only try to help a brother or sister that has fallen into sin as Christ made very clear when He helped the woman caught in adultery, and did not condemn but told her 'Go and sin no more'.......


We need to follow Christs example and instead of finding reasons to condemn, help a brother or sister who have fallen into the abyss of sin and find a way back to Christ......

John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

   But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

 11"No one, sir," she said.
      "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

[reddogs]

1.Now you are not the employer, you can have a say to the employer directly as you are members of the church or those in authority at all levels to pass on up, but to pass it amoung yourselves it gets distorted and turns into nothing but street level hearsay, and useless gossip. If that is what is being defended, then Pauls words apply, and they are strong and quite clear........


Are you forgetting who employs the employer .What employers of the denomination do, present,claim represents all of us. Those that employ the employer

2.As to forcing a confession of responsibility out of a brother or sister, those who advocate that need think about it as they go over what scripture says....
Matthew 7:4

Please do not put words in my mouth. I said nothing about forcing a confession. We were discussing following scripture. When one side does and the other resists by demanding the other follow scripture, where does thats leave us? Excuse me,expecting responsibility and accountibility for actions is not unbiblical.


2.Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

I will assume you have a beam in your eye, or at the least a mote. Does this include the removal of that prior to chastising others for gossip


By the standards you have set out,if there is fraud, abuse,sexual/physical, lies, unless the guilty party or parties wishes to meet with you and act according to the scripture you have quoted, we need to accept the continuing, harmful conduct. Sounds a lot like business as usual

My sister, if those that oversee are doing their job and we have charged them to make sure those they employ are sound Christians and of good moral character, and give them any evidence to the contrary, then it is their resposibility. But to take apart and destroy others with gossip by anyone who watched a show does not give those  permission to spread hearsay and heartless chatter, and it is not what Christians should strive for or do...

[bonnie]

1.My sister, if those that oversee are doing their job and we have charged them to make sure those they employ are sound Christians and of good moral character, and give them any evidence to the contrary, then it is their resposibility.


Back to the same tired old question. When THEY fail in their responsibility then what?


2. But to take apart and destroy others with gossip by anyone who watched a show does not give those  permission to spread hearsay and heartless chatter, and it is not what Christians should strive for or do...


The key words for me here are heartless chatter.
Have you perhaps discussed DS's heartless chatter with him? And told him ,as the then leader of a televangelist program, that like it or not is seen as representing the SDA denomination, that what he did was unchristian? What have you determined is hearsy and without foundation and where did you obtain that knowledge. Was he factual and stating that which was necessary to say publically?

Are we back to the mote and the beam?

Had DS used his heartless chatter and spreading hearsy towards anyone other than his former wife,it would have been surprising if he and the whole of 3ABN was not slapped with such a lawsuit it would have made their head swim. Probably the only question would have been how many zero's to add to the check.

Are you of the opinion that this whole thing is about someone watching a show?


It always puzzles me that those so quick to level the charge of "gossip" towards others seem themselves to be up on what the current gossip is.
Is it to perform a christian duty to chastise others and attribute motive?  Or is it a desire to keep abreast of the "gossip" while trying to keep clean hands

[reddogs]

1.My sister, if those that oversee are doing their job and we have charged them to make sure those they employ are sound Christians and of good moral character, and give them any evidence to the contrary, then it is their resposibility.


Back to the same tired old question. When THEY fail in their responsibility then what?


2. But to take apart and destroy others with gossip by anyone who watched a show does not give those  permission to spread hearsay and heartless chatter, and it is not what Christians should strive for or do...


The key words for me here are heartless chatter.
Have you perhaps discussed DS's heartless chatter with him? And told him ,as the then leader of a televangelist program, that like it or not is seen as representing the SDA denomination, that what he did was unchristian? What have you determined is hearsy and without foundation and where did you obtain that knowledge. Was he factual and stating that which was necessary to say publically?

Are we back to the mote and the beam?

Had DS used his heartless chatter and spreading hearsy towards anyone other than his former wife,it would have been surprising if he and the whole of 3ABN was not slapped with such a lawsuit it would have made their head swim. Probably the only question would have been how many zero's to add to the check.

Are you of the opinion that this whole thing is about someone watching a show?


It always puzzles me that those so quick to level the charge of "gossip" towards others seem themselves to be up on what the current gossip is.
Is it to perform a christian duty to chastise others and attribute motive?  Or is it a desire to keep abreast of the "gossip" while trying to keep clean hands

From the way things are getting handled now, I would say its being taken care of in a brutally public manner.......

I watch 3ABN when the oppurtunity presents itself, I am not friends, family, or in charge of any of the 3ABN employees, so thus to try to force them to face responsibility is not my place or to carelessly talk about these personal issues with others that are not their superiors or responsible for them directly would be idle gossip or rumor. Now if you are a friend, family, or in charge of them, then you are doing the right thing to correct them if they have done wrong, otherwise the words and hearsay is being used to arbitrarily comdemn and only evil is served........


Lets put it in perspective and turn it around, if you were caught up in a sin like adultery would you want everyone to come and comdemn, or be taken aside and given a chance to repent and ask for forgiveness, and return to Christ...

[bonnie]

From the way things are getting handled now, I would say its being taken care of in a brutally public manner.......

I watch 3ABN when the oppurtunity presents itself, I am not friends, family, or in charge of any of the 3ABN employees, so thus to try to force them to face responsibility is not my place or to talk about the issues with others would be idle gossip or rumor. Now if you are a friend, family, or in charge of them, then you are doing the right thing to correct them if they have done wrong, otherwise the words and hearsy is being used to arbitrarily comdemn and only evil is served........


You are still completely avoiding answering my questions while continuing to worry about the mote in the eyes of others.
The discussion concerning this issue has been referred to here and in other forums as "adventist tabloid" "rumor" "idle gossip" "speculation"
and now evil".
Pretty much sums up how I feel about the National Enquirer. I don't read that at all, just to keep abreast of what they are doing wrong. I could not tell you from week to week what they are guilty of.
Seems you keep abreast of the wrong doing of others. Why"
Isn't there something about avoiding that which you believe to be evil?

3ABN and the impact allegations,if true, can have on the denomination as a whole includes all of us.



I know this in some ways may be rather simplistic, but had DS not begun to make himself look the injured party when most were not aware,he would have avoided much of this.
When serious questions and doubts were raised, and it doesn't seem without cause, about financial matters,open and honest availability of where money went,etc would have solved most of the other issues.

Confidentiality in money management, money donated to a non-profit,has little business claiming confidentiality.

A little different scenerio, but at one time my siblings and I were responsible for the care of our elderly aunt.
Money was involved, money that was not ours to do with as we chose. My SIL took care of the bulk of the matters.
Every penny had to be accounted for,it was not ours. We could not lay claim to anything being confidential. When asked we could not hem and haw. The proof best be there and documented.
I see little difference here.
I do not care what anyone else says. The burden is on DS and 3ABN. Provide the written documentation for how you have spent the money that shows it was for the stated,intended use.

Do not make threats against another. As it seems was directed towards Mabel Dunbar, according to what was posted.
Do not publically humilate an ex-spouse, especially where the proof you are requiring is lacking.

Do not create a mess and then chastise others and condemn for wanting it straightened out as it reflects on the SDA denomination as a whole

[reddogs]

From the way things are getting handled now, I would say its being taken care of in a brutally public manner.......

I watch 3ABN when the oppurtunity presents itself, I am not friends, family, or in charge of any of the 3ABN employees, so thus to try to force them to face responsibility is not my place or to talk about the issues with others would be idle gossip or rumor. Now if you are a friend, family, or in charge of them, then you are doing the right thing to correct them if they have done wrong, otherwise the words and hearsy is being used to arbitrarily comdemn and only evil is served........


You are still completely avoiding answering my questions while continuing to worry about the mote in the eyes of others.
The discussion concerning this issue has been referred to here and in other forums as "adventist tabloid" "rumor" "idle gossip" "speculation"
and now evil".
Pretty much sums up how I feel about the National Enquirer. I don't read that at all, just to keep abreast of what they are doing wrong. I could not tell you from week to week what they are guilty of.
Seems you keep abreast of the wrong doing of others. Why"
Isn't there something about avoiding that which you believe to be evil?

3ABN and the impact allegations,if true, can have on the denomination as a whole includes all of us.



I know this in some ways may be rather simplistic, but had DS not begun to make himself look the injured party when most were not aware,he would have avoided much of this.
When serious questions and doubts were raised, and it doesn't seem without cause, about financial matters,open and honest availability of where money went,etc would have solved most of the other issues.

Confidentiality in money management, money donated to a non-profit,has little business claiming confidentiality.

A little different scenerio, but at one time my siblings and I were responsible for the care of our elderly aunt.
Money was involved, money that was not ours to do with as we chose. My SIL took care of the bulk of the matters.
Every penny had to be accounted for,it was not ours. We could not lay claim to anything being confidential. When asked we could not hem and haw. The proof best be there and documented.
I see little difference here.
I do not care what anyone else says. The burden is on DS and 3ABN. Provide the written documentation for how you have spent the money that shows it was for the stated,intended use.

Do not make threats against another. As it seems was directed towards Mabel Dunbar, according to what was posted.
Do not publically humilate an ex-spouse, especially where the proof you are requiring is lacking.

Do not create a mess and then chastise others and condemn for wanting it straightened out as it reflects on the SDA denomination as a whole

I dont see much of any questions, just putting a brother and sisters personal issues under scrutiny and useless comdemnation......

That is what this 3ABN issue reminds me of, the sensationalism of the National Enquirer, the impact is marginal as hardly anybody in the SDA churches in our area brings it up or much less even cares for its details. There seems to be some Adventist who seem to think this is the most important issue that needs to be dealt with and seem fixated with it, and let me say I think our time and effort would be better spent helping to build more churches, helping those who want to attend a Adventist Christian school and need financial help, helping those members losing their homes, their jobs and other more urgent needs that do good for our brothers and sisters, not waste time doing no good for anyone.....

[bonnie]

That is what this 3ABN issue reminds me of, the sensationalism of the National Enquirer, the impact is marginal as hardly anybody in the SDA churches in our area brings it up or cares for its details. There seems to be some Adventist who seem to think this is the most important issue that needs to be dealt with and seem fixated with it, and let me say I think our time and effort would be better spent helping to build more churches, helping those who want to attend a Adventist Christian school and need financial help, helping those members losing their homes, their jobs and other more urgent needs that do good for our brothers and sisters, not waste time doing no good for anyone.....

Still avoiding?  Why are your reading the equivalent of the National Enquirer?

On one point we do agree. Hardly anyone cares. No one really cares about the great damage done concerning many issues that impact our denomination negatively.

Helping and doing as per your suggestions is great. But when you drag the garbage behind you, all you do is infect those you are trying to help and bring in