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[bonnie]

Chrissie

I think you put to much into that story. Many people would not do anything because they just do not want to [censored] into someone elses affairs.Getting into another affairs is a difficult thing to do for most people. Some can do it with ease others of a introverted nature like myself would be find it very unconfortable to deal with someones elses pains.
I do resent the implied statement that those that find it difficult to get into anothers emotions are themselves abusers though. Not knowing the reasons for the woman crying and not asking does not make one an abuser does it?

Again, What would Jesus do? 

Abuse happens, any kind of abuse, when people allow it to happen.
There are many things that can be done, prior to getting into anothers emotions.
Most present knew the reason for the crying church member.  What definition is applicable to those that knew, allowed,and condoned by silence the emotional destruction of this woman and her child? Failing to act, when action and support were definately called for, "Because he was doing  some good things"

[RedFalcon]

First of all we are not mind readers. There is no way anyone could have known what was bothering the woman without talking to her. As I said that is not proper for a man to do that but a woman by all means. I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.

[bonnie]

First of all we are not mind readers. There is no way anyone could have known what was bothering the woman without talking to her. As I said that is not proper for a man to do that but a woman by all means. I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.

You are entirely wrong, most knew exactly what was bothering the woman. They also knew that the impact of the problem would have ramifications for the whole congregation
No one has suggested anything improper be done. No one has suggested not taking  along another party with them.

What should we be doing, teaching and putting into practise as a church before we get to this stage

[RedFalcon]

You are entirely wrong, most knew exactly what was bothering the woman. They also knew that the impact of the problem would have ramifications for the whole congregation
No one has suggested anything improper be done. No one has suggested not taking  along another party with them.

What should we be doing, teaching and putting into practise as a church before we get to this stage

Again you did not make that clear in your prior posts Bonnie. You have to be clear in your posts.  It just sounded as if a woman was there crying and no one knew why and therefore the entire church were abusers because they did not comfort her.  Go back and read your own posts Bonnie.

[bonnie]

You are entirely wrong, most knew exactly what was bothering the woman. They also knew that the impact of the problem would have ramifications for the whole congregation
No one has suggested anything improper be done. No one has suggested not taking  along another party with them.

What should we be doing, teaching and putting into practise as a church before we get to this stage

Again you did not make that clear in your prior posts Bonnie. You have to be clear in your posts.  It just sounded as if a woman was there crying and no one knew why and therefore the entire church were abusers because they did not comfort her.  Go back and read your own posts Bonnie.

I did and that of others.




No, it is not the problem of a specific  local church. It is widespread.
Wake up calls are usually dismissed rather quickly. Met with the willful arrogance of knowing the words. Arrogance leads to willful ignorance . Ignorance colors one's perception
 


I think you are somewhat missing the point. I did not mention that incident for specific solutions to this woman's problems and lack of support.Rather a much larger issue. As Ginge has pointed out in her book, the pastor was the problem and all looked the other way.  What could have and should have been done by those observing. A visit and taking out to lunch I am sure would be much appreciated, but then what??


There is no conclusion?  Then what is the point of the story?
From the first introduction it would appear that you are blaming the pator and the whole church for being abusers simply because they did not notice ot talk to a crying worman in the back of the church. From people who did not read the book that is the point it would appear you are making.



Maybe the point of the story is what can be learned by those that care or are interested in learning how to prevent or support someone.


FairHavens.....

And there's the rub. We probably have all the knowingthat we need as xtians. It is in the practise that we fail. Our unwillingness to do what we know we ought, for whatever justifications that we can reasonably cook up. We know with righteous certainty what the other person should have done but if we had to face the same situation given the same set of circumstances would we have done differently?

I think that when we begin to observe the little things that we might ignore as unimportant even though a tiny voice in our heads tell us 'that ain't right' or 'you should do this' and the Spirit begins to increase our power to do the right thing every time (yea,I know that's a tall order) we will begin to experience the change that Bonnie's original question expect to see in us.


Chrissie....

RedFalcon, I feel that you are missing the point. This is often not "just a situation in a book". This can be real life experiences. How would you deal with it? Pass it off as 'some situation like in a book', or actively try to do something to change the situation? I think we all need to ask ourselves that question.
 

[sky]

How do we exercice faith? how do we put it into practice. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (hearing the voice of God in His word)." Rom.10:17.

I believe the Bible because I have found it to be the voice of God speaking to my soul. The Bible is God's word to us, not written merely, but spoken! In other words, the Bible is God's voice speaking to us, just as surely as though we could hear it with our ears. If we realized this, with what awe would we open God's word, and with what earnestness would we search its precepts! Psalm 119:161,162. See Testimonies, Vol.6, p.393.

For example, the ten commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai are the voice of God from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise of the Spirit. It is ever speaking to us. Thus, there is not a negative in that law although it may appear thus! See 1 B.C.1105. 
 
Received as the voice of God speaking to the soul, it imparts power, it begets life, even the life of the Infinite One. It transforms the nature and re-creates the soul in the image of God. And the life which is thus received is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Psalm 119:93,50; Matt.4:4; See Education, p.126.

In the beginning God said, "Let there be light! And there was light!" out of sheer darkness! "He spoke and it was!" Ps.33:9. He spoke the word only! There was no time between the word spoken and the thing done. It is the same voice from Heaven speaking to us in redemption. After the fall, the hearts of men became spiritually dark and alienated from God. But on account of the merits of a Saviour to come and who has come, the Lord speaks to us wonderful words of life, even life everlasting. Again, He speaks the word only, saying "Let the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ shine in the darkened void of your heart." 2 Cor.4:6. The light of His presence and glory immediately shines in your heart and in my heart if we are willing to be as submissive to the voice of His word as is the inanimate creation! 

Whosoever is hungering and thirsting for the light of God's presence and glory and hears His voice and believes, immediately becomes light in the Lord. "You were once darkness but NOW you are light in the Lord." Eph.5:8. Such will sing the praises of "Him who called them out of darkness into His marvelous light." 1 Peter 2:9.

And "As they have received Him, so walk they in Him," "By every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Matt.4:4.

"I will praise Your word." Psalm 56:4,10.
 
To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen!

sky

[Lil Star]

First of all we are not mind readers. There is no way anyone could have known what was bothering the woman without talking to her. As I said that is not proper for a man to do that but a woman by all means. I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.

Hmmmm, almost sounds as if we have done this before on another forum. Anyways, I'm sorry but I just came in on this. I am surprised by this poster. When I attended a church, when a person, man or woman was crying, anyone, man or woman, would walk up and ask what the matter was. It was if a man took the lady into a room, closed the door that men were to take another man into the room.

I will continue reading and post as I come across a post I need to.

[Chrissie]

First of all we are not mind readers. There is no way anyone could have known what was bothering the woman without talking to her. As I said that is not proper for a man to do that but a woman by all means. I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.

Hmmmm, almost sounds as if we have done this before on another forum. Anyways, I'm sorry but I just came in on this. I am surprised by this poster. When I attended a church, when a person, man or woman was crying, anyone, man or woman, would walk up and ask what the matter was. It was if a man took the lady into a room, closed the door that men were to take another man into the room.

I will continue reading and post as I come across a post I need to.

Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive.  Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.

That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situation. Aren't we all our brother's (or sister's) keeper? I believe so.

[Lil Star]

Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive.  Caution Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.

That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situation. Aren't we all our brother's (or sister's) keeper? I believe so.

Yes, I believe we ARE our brothers/sisters keepers. It makes me upset that people would not care what is wrong with a person if they are crying. I can't say that I have been there exactly, but I have been there in other ways. It certainly makes a person feel very and I do mean VERY unwelcome in that atmosphere. I hate to keep referring to my pastor I had as a child, but he was just the best paster of all time in my book! Anyways, if he had not brought himself down to the congregations level, then I do not believe the church would have been as successful as it was 'back in the day.'  I will forever cherish those days as he was concerned about EVERYONE, not just one or two or three that were his favorites. But he cared about everyone. I know that if someone had been crying, it would not have mattered if he was in the middle of something, he would have gone to find out what the matter was. To me that is being a true christian. Maybe I have it all wrong, but having a shoulder to cry on is something very important to the person who is crying. I just wish there were people within the (any) church that would put their arm around a crying person and just even told them something like, 'it will be alright, lets talk about whatever is bothering you', or even 'let God take your cares away', or even the least invasive 'are you going to be okay?'  Even those go a long way. It makes a person feel like someone even if they didn't know you cared about you. If even for a minute or two while you talked to them. Every little minute counts in the life of a person. I mean, how do you know that you didn't just save a life? How do you know that if you did not say anything to them, that they would not go out and kill themself? You never will.

[Lil Star]

I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.

What a sad thing to learn as a deacon or elder or pastor. 

[Ozzie]

Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive.  Caution Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.

That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situation. Aren't we all our brother's (or sister's) keeper? I believe so.

Yes, I believe we ARE our brothers/sisters keepers. It makes me upset that people would not care what is wrong with a person if they are crying. I can't say that I have been there exactly, but I have been there in other ways. It certainly makes a person feel very and I do mean VERY unwelcome in that atmosphere.

I agree that we are ALL responsible as Christians, to do what one possibly can to console or assist a distressed person. As far as I'm concerned, those remarks posted by Red Falcon, are just a cop out - an excuse (not a reason), for doing nothing and therefore allowing and encouraging abuse.

[quoteI hate to keep referring to my pastor I had as a child, but he was just the best paster of all time in my book! Anyways, if he had not brought himself down to the congregations level, then I do not believe the church would have been as successful as it was 'back in the day.'  I will forever cherish those days as he was concerned about EVERYONE, not just one or two or three that were his favorites. But he cared about everyone. I know that if someone had been crying, it would not have mattered if he was in the middle of something, he would have gone to find out what the matter was. To me that is being a true christian. Maybe I have it all wrong, but having a shoulder to cry on is something very important to the person who is crying. I just wish there were people within the (any) church that would put their arm around a crying person and just even told them something like, 'it will be alright, lets talk about whatever is bothering you', or even 'let God take your cares away', or even the least invasive 'are you going to be okay?'  Even those go a long way. It makes a person feel like someone even if they didn't know you cared about you. If even for a minute or two while you talked to them. Every little minute counts in the life of a person. I mean, how do you know that you didn't just save a life? How do you know that if you did not say anything to them, that they would not go out and kill themself? You never will.
[/quote]

Lil, you are just so 'spot on'. You were indeed fortunate, to have such a wonderful Pastor in your earlier days. Oh, that there were more Pastors and other Church leaders like that now.

It is so true that just one kind word or action could well prevent a person from taking their own life. And how much does it really take, to take a few moments out of one's own personal (self-centred) schedule, to show some compassion for a distraught person - be that male or female. As I've spent more than 30 years working in these situations, no one will convince me otherwise.

Ignore abuse and it's akin to condoning abuse. Ignore a distressed person, and you could be the one that took the last drop of hope from that person; sufficient for them to think themself absolutely worthless in God's sight and also in the sight of the pious congregation who choose to ignore the 'child of God' who mostly needs to know that 'someone cares'.

If anyone is offended by what I've stated, that's TOUGH. I make no apology for being so blunt, as this is reality - not some fairy-story. It's time to wake up and ask ourselves "What would Jesus do"?

[bonnie]

[quote author=Lil Star
Hmmmm, almost sounds as if we have done this before on another forum. Anyways, I'm sorry but I just came in on this. I am surprised by this poster. When I attended a church, when a person, man or woman was crying, anyone, man or woman, would walk up and ask what the matter was. It was if a man took the lady into a room, closed the door that men were to take another man into the room.

I will continue reading and post as I come across a post I need to.
[/quote]


Yes, Lil Star, this is the same old familiar story. Taken right out of the same playbook that has been used for years.  There are some that use the collective "we" as in "We are not mind readers" to put forth their own idea and make it seem as a concensus.

In this case I believe the "we" is "one" that is again focusing on something that was not the intent and erecting a problem or problems  to obscure and complicate an example as to what some of our problems are as a church.
It is not complicated.
Most that chose to, I believe understood

[RedFalcon]

Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive.  [Caution] Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.

That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situatio

Ok. Maybe you misunderstood me Chrissy.  We are advised to not go a person of the opposite sex house or  place where she would be alone with you without another person with you.

Now to talk to the woman in a public place like church would be wise to have someone with you to avoid those gossip mongers that every church has. It is only a precaution.

In this day and age of lawsuits of Sexual misconduct even an accusation of sexual misconduct can ruin a persons reputation. We must take precautions. That is all I was saying.

[bonnie]

Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive.  [Caution] Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.

That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situatio

Ok. Maybe you misunderstood me Chrissy.  We are advised to not go a person of the opposite sex house or  place where she would be alone with you without another person with you.

Now to talk to the woman in a public place like church would be wise to have someone with you to avoid those gossip mongers that every church has. It is only a precaution.

In this day and age of lawsuits of Sexual misconduct even an accusation of sexual misconduct can ruin a persons reputation. We must take precautions. That is all I was saying.

It did not seem like this is what you were saying. I am glad that even tho you said you misunderstood, you realize the need to help and support those that may need it, while using simple preventative steps from causing complications.

Most lawsuits of Sexual Misconduct that are filed are found to be accurate. A couple of years ago it was Risk Management that claimed 8 out of 10 were found to be telling the truth.
Care and caution is always prudent, but need not get in the way of doing "What jesus Would Do"

[bonnie]

Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive.  [Caution] Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.

That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situatio

Ok. Maybe you misunderstood me Chrissy.  We are advised to not go a person of the opposite sex house or  place where she would be alone with you without another person with you.

Now to talk to the woman in a public place like church would be wise to have someone with you to avoid those gossip mongers that every church has. It is only a precaution.

In this day and age of lawsuits of Sexual misconduct even an accusation of sexual misconduct can ruin a persons reputation. We must take precautions. That is all I was saying.

Daryl put it quite simply, simple enough for the topic to be understood in the very beginning. 7th post.

 
 
Daryl Fawcett
Administrator
Veteran Member
     Re: How Do You Put Faith Into Practise?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2008, 03:34:25 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This doesn't seem to be a problem with any specific local church, but seems to be widespread, therefore, a wake-up call is needed.



Abuse is not a single issue, involving sexual abuse or misconduct.
One member ignored,  showing obvious signs of distress, does not always indicate sexual abuse. It does indicate a lack of concern, compassion, willingness to "do unto others" that will definately show up in allowing sexual abuse.

There is not one giant leap from a caring supportive church, to one that turns their back on a victim of this type of abuse. It is a learned behavior and one we get quite comfrotable with

It indicates a lack of awareness or caring to fail to be proactive as a church to be ready and able to step into a need and help. In the appropriate manner.

PLease note, this is example only, not that you are to run out and find this hungry party.

One member of a church noticed an obvious need by a family. Family to embarrassed to say anything. Simple observation of watching a child take food from the potluck table, not eating it but putting in his knapsack. Hearing something the child  said to his mother, he knew he was right and there was a real need. Because of a personality conflict between the man and this family, he did not feel help would be well received or appropriate for him to be seen as the one helping. He discreetly approached another member, explained and offered the money for her to purchase a very large amount of much needed groceries. To be done so that the receiving family was comfortable they were not the talk of the church in their crisis. The situation resolved itself without anyone else knowing.
This man stepped out of his comfort zone and did find a way to help.


He did not repeat scripture or find reasons for not helping. To allow something like this when you realize a need and can lend a hand is abuse.
To  allow needless want and suffering because it is out of our comfort zone, sexual/physical/emotional abuse will be just one more form we as a church are comfortable with and see no reason for hands on training to prevent. No reason to have a little mission endeavor and steps to take in our churches.


edited to correct a sentence