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[Ozzie]

Maybe, the problem lies in the numbers of people, where 'new people' just get lost? My family has felt very much like this in the large SDA Churches - felt that we could never break into the 'cliques', yet in smaller churches, we have always found warmth and friendsip.

I have felt this way in so many churches I have attended. Except for one. It was Rockwood church in Oregon where I lived at the time. I do not remember why we stopped going to church as I was a young child. However, I will always remember the pastor who made everyone and I do mean everyone feel as though they were the only one there. At least that is how I felt and it is hard for me to fit into the 'cliques' in any atmosphere. I was blessed by this pastor and he was actually the one who baptized me when I was a young child. I just wish I had stayed in the faith and also that I had followed his footsteps in how he was as a person in general. I have now grown up, still remember him. Finally got into touch with him before I left the other forum thanks to a person from that forum. I did find some friends but very few. I thought it was more but as of late, I have found out different.  Hope this will be a friendship forum for me.

Sorry, now I'm off my soapbox.

(hint maybe we could get a soapbox for peeps like me?)

And... a soapbox for me too please?

Lil, what lovely memories of the Pastor who baptised you. Our family has similar memories. We were baptised in a country town, with a Church membership of about 60. EVERY PERSON was important there and everyone worked as a team. Years down the track, when many had moved away, people still kept in touch. If one had a problem (ie severe illness), the 'grapevine' soon came to life, and all knew about it and were praying about it. We haven't found quite that atmosphere anywhere since we left, but I had occasion to phone on of the leaders there this past week (who was a child whom we used to 'baby' sit about 35 years ago), and ask them to check on a certain person (not SDA), who needed support out there. The response was immediate and as sincere as it was all those years ago when we lived there.

I hope that you find the love and friendship here that you are seeking too Lil. You have my email address, I think? And 'Ginger' sends best wishes and requests for cuddles and pampering too! 

[bonnie]

This true life example took place in a very large SDA congregation. Membership of 500. Not one gesture was made.
Were there 500 goats in this congregation?  Where was the one sheep that understood his words?

Maybe, the problem lies in the numbers of people, where 'new people' just get lost? My family has felt very much like this in the large SDA Churches - felt that we could never break into the 'cliques', yet in smaller churches, we have always found warmth and friendsip.

Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been

[charis]

I may be wrong, but isn't the pastor of a church supposed to set mood of the church as an entity?  I realize he/she cannot shepherd all members (sheep being the dumb creatures that they are), but I think that's where the buck stops....squarely in front of the pastor.  ACCKK - don't hit me!  j/k

hmm.  Faith without works is dead.

Here's a soapbox for Lil Star and Ozzie and perhaps this as well 

[Ozzie]

Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been

Sounds much like the wife of another 'control freak', who says all the right things to his congregation and didn't have a kind word or any time for his poor wife.

Could be like another young married woman who had three kids in 3 1/2 years and suffered from depression. Her self-righteous husband (Head Church Elder) kept telling her that depression is a sin and "if she was right with God, she wouldn't be feeling depressed". Had nothing to do with the fact that she was left to struggle with the kids all by herself, even at a social event, while he went off being Mr Good Guy, sermonising to any who would listen, or did it? I believe that was the case and I didn't listen to his preaching either.

I prefer to 'see' a sermon rather than 'hear' it. 

[Ozzie]

I may be wrong, but isn't the pastor of a church supposed to set mood of the church as an entity?  I realize he/she cannot shepherd all members (sheep being the dumb creatures that they are), but I think that's where the buck stops....squarely in front of the pastor.  ACCKK - don't hit me!  j/k

hmm.  Faith without works is dead.

Here's a soapbox for Lil Star and Ozzie and perhaps this as well 

Love these smilies. Still trying to work out how to put them into posts though! I'm rather dumb when it comes to things like this! 

[bonnie]

I may be wrong, but isn't the pastor of a church supposed to set mood of the church as an entity?  I realize he/she cannot shepherd all members (sheep being the dumb creatures that they are), but I think that's where the buck stops....squarely in front of the pastor.  ACCKK - don't hit me!  j/k

hmm.  Faith without works is dead.

I believe that he is and that this holds true for any that step into or willingly place themselves in a leadership role of any kind

[bonnie]

Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been

Sounds much like the wife of another 'control freak', who says all the right things to his congregation and didn't have a kind word or any time for his poor wife.

Could be like another young married woman who had three kids in 3 1/2 years and suffered from depression. Her self-righteous husband (Head Church Elder) kept telling her that depression is a sin and "if she was right with God, she wouldn't be feeling depressed". Had nothing to do with the fact that she was left to struggle with the kids all by herself, even at a social event, while he went off being Mr Good Guy, sermonising to any who would listen, or did it? I believe that was the case and I didn't listen to his preaching either.

I prefer to 'see' a sermon rather than 'hear' it. 

As responsible as an abusive person is for his /her own actions,who is it that actually allows and thereby promotes abuse ? Abuse on a much larger scale. The one abusing spouse and family? The ones circling the "wagon"? The ones quietly keeping their distance?  The ones that reconcile their presence with the notion of remaining for the good things that are being done?

[Chrissie]

Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been

Sounds much like the wife of another 'control freak', who says all the right things to his congregation and didn't have a kind word or any time for his poor wife.

Could be like another young married woman who had three kids in 3 1/2 years and suffered from depression. Her self-righteous husband (Head Church Elder) kept telling her that depression is a sin and "if she was right with God, she wouldn't be feeling depressed". Had nothing to do with the fact that she was left to struggle with the kids all by herself, even at a social event, while he went off being Mr Good Guy, sermonising to any who would listen, or did it? I believe that was the case and I didn't listen to his preaching either.

I prefer to 'see' a sermon rather than 'hear' it. 

As responsible as an abusive person is for his /her own actions,who is it that actually allows and thereby promotes abuse ? Abuse on a much larger scale. The one abusing spouse and family? The ones circling the "wagon"? The ones quietly keeping their distance?  The ones that reconcile their presence with the notion of remaining for the good things that are being done?

They've got to keep things 'looking good for the Church' Bonnie. Just sacrifice this one 'poor woman', so her husband and the church members keep looking like the 'good Christian image'. Incredible what some people will do to cover up abuse. 

[Ozzie]

Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been

Sounds much like the wife of another 'control freak', who says all the right things to his congregation and didn't have a kind word or any time for his poor wife.

Could be like another young married woman who had three kids in 3 1/2 years and suffered from depression. Her self-righteous husband (Head Church Elder) kept telling her that depression is a sin and "if she was right with God, she wouldn't be feeling depressed". Had nothing to do with the fact that she was left to struggle with the kids all by herself, even at a social event, while he went off being Mr Good Guy, sermonising to any who would listen, or did it? I believe that was the case and I didn't listen to his preaching either.

I prefer to 'see' a sermon rather than 'hear' it. 

As responsible as an abusive person is for his /her own actions,who is it that actually allows and thereby promotes abuse ? Abuse on a much larger scale. The one abusing spouse and family? The ones circling the "wagon"? The ones quietly keeping their distance?  The ones that reconcile their presence with the notion of remaining for the good things that are being done?

Does not the Conference President or Ministerial Secretary get to hear about these kind of situations? Or, are people afraid to stand up and be counted.

The relevant Conference personell were contacted, when there has been similar circumstances in Churches where I have worshipped! It meant that I was 'censored' by the members in one Church, but we did have a lot of Conference support. I guess many people could not say that they had that level of support.

And... as I'm a 'slow learner', I've needed to speak with the Conference President regarding a similar situation in another Church I attended. There was a satisfactory resolution to that particular situation. 

[bonnie]

As responsible as an abusive person is for his /her own actions,who is it that actually allows and thereby promotes abuse ? Abuse on a much larger scale. The one abusing spouse and family? The ones circling the "wagon"? The ones quietly keeping their distance?  The ones that reconcile their presence with the notion of remaining for the good things that are being done?

Does not the Conference President or Ministerial Secretary get to hear about these kind of situations? Or, are people afraid to stand up and be counted.

The relevant Conference personell were contacted, when there has been similar circumstances in Churches where I have worshipped! It meant that I was 'censored' by the members in one Church, but we did have a lot of Conference support. I guess many people could not say that they had that level of support.

And... as I'm a 'slow learner', I've needed to speak with the Conference President regarding a similar situation in another Church I attended. There was a satisfactory resolution to that particular situation. 

What happens if a conference president is part of the group circling the wagon, or slinking guietly away ,Or PREACHING the examples of Christ?

=====

Edited to correct quote formatting problem.

[bonnie]

One place I worked posted a statement in our coat room, bathrooms and such. Can't remember the exact words now,but it is something that every single person should ponder.

The management of any org./ business/club that operates with honesty, integrity, fairness and consideration,will have a staff or members that reflect same. A leadership of integrity can not long operate according to the standards they profess without those standards being reflected by those with less responsibility.
By the same standards a staff with integrity, fairness,honesty, and consideration can not co-exist efficiently with a leadership that provides less. In time, one will change and be guilty of that which they rail against.


Another place I worked sent in a behavior specialist to problem solve some things that seemed to be beyond management.
There was blatant workplace bullying. He had rather a simple concept and one that was very efficient in solving the problem. A general meeting and then one on one.


"It is not enough to claim you don't like something". A bully exists or unpleasent circumstances continue, because those that don't like it fail to say NO.

Each one involved was given a simple remedy. When the very first sign presents itself, Say No, I am not going allow you to do this. The leader of the bullying pack is only as strong as those surrounding him are willing to let him be.
Without them, the taunting,cruelty,abuse cease. It needs an audience and praise to let it thrive.  Once the power to do so is lost ,so is the leader

[RedFalcon]

What exactly does that mean for those sitting in the pews? There was a woman that sat in the back pew of a church, holding her young daughter and quietly crying, week after week. Listening to sermons of what would Jesus do, announcements of getting in the community and sharing your faith. She could recite by rout I am sure,the answers of Christ on how true faith is put into practise. As she remained uncounted and not worthy of hands on as to "What Jesus would do" is that answer enough.


Bonnie

I think the people in the pews should invite the woman to sabbath lunch or out to lunch or visit her at her home. I see a lot of what ifs discussed and not enough action. I do not see the point of getting the conference involved in a situation of something the pastor failed to do or did not see what was going on.

[bonnie]

What exactly does that mean for those sitting in the pews? There was a woman that sat in the back pew of a church, holding her young daughter and quietly crying, week after week. Listening to sermons of what would Jesus do, announcements of getting in the community and sharing your faith. She could recite by rout I am sure,the answers of Christ on how true faith is put into practise. As she remained uncounted and not worthy of hands on as to "What Jesus would do" is that answer enough.


Bonnie

I think the people in the pews should invite the woman to sabbath lunch or out to lunch or visit her at her home. I see a lot of what ifs discussed and not enough action. I do not see the point of getting the conference involved in a situation of something the pastor failed to do or did not see what was going on.

I think you are somewhat missing the point. I did not mention that incident for specific solutions to this woman's problems and lack of support.
Rather a much larger issue. As Ginge has pointed out in her book, the pastor was the problem and all looked the other way.  What could have and should have been done by those observing. A visit and taking out to lunch I am sure would be much appreciated, but then what??


The looking the other way,remaining silent does not and should not only include abuses or failures of this type.





Adding for clarification to those not having read.......



3 counselor-authors will be presenting a book at this conference on abuse in the SDA church (and all denominationl churches). There are books in the non-SDA christian community but very few in our own church. The article mentioned above hits Domestic Violence right between the eyes (no pun intended and I am not laughting) We are talking about a very silent/denial subject of Christian family abuse. This abuse goes on, from the pastor(oh, yes it does) in the pulpit, the leaders in the church on down to the pew sitters. All kinds of abuse, emotional, physical, verbal, spiritual and all come under "battering". The abuser and the one abused are all hurting and the church family should be protecting the victims and working on saving the abuser. What 'good' advice is frequently told the victims in the church?--"The Bible says not to divorce", "Don't spread the church's dirty laundry", "What did YOU do to make him hit you"? "You need to go back and be a good submissive wife". Then there is also the husband that is abused and has no where to turn.

Name of the book? "We Suffered in Silence" How a Pastor's family lived in Shame while hiding Dark Spots on the Clerical Collar.

[RedFalcon]

I missed the point we were talking about a situation in a book. Books are good at presenting one side ot the issue. Since I did not read the book or even heard of it I cannot comment on it.

[bonnie]

I missed the point we were talking about a situation in a book. Books are good at presenting one side ot the issue. Since I did not read the book or even heard of it I cannot comment on it.

Is there ever two sides to abuse? Abuse must include more than one person,but for the one committing the abuse is there ever another side that somehow can explain away or sanitize the abuser's actions.
What other side of abuse , that which is committed against the vulnerable has a good argument for the actions