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[Bob Pickle]

It would be good if Ty published some corrections to that article.

• ¶ 17 of RH 4-4-1882 shows that the entire article is taken from an earlier testimony, and that material is in 4T 390, dated 1880. Thus, the quote really precedes the 1881 GC Session, rather than follows it.
  
  
• A more serious issue is the use of such quotes to say that Ellen White was calling for women to serve as pastors of established churches, when she instead stated that the general rule was for conference ministers to be out raising up new churches (Ev 382.2), with the laity keeping the established churches going (Ev 382.1). Ordaining women to hover over existing churches is just a further departure from the counsel God gave us.
  
  
• Ty quotes James White saying that women may preach, but that skirts the main issue entirely, since our Adventist pioneers maintained that women could preach but could not hold positions of authority in the church over men, such as "pastors or ruling elders," as J.H. Waggoner stated in ST 12-19-1878. To illustrate, while James White was editor, the following also appeared in the RH:
  
  
  • "We think the second clause of 1 Tim. 2:12, explains the first: 'nor to usurp authority over the man.' One definition of the word teach is to direct, or appoint" (RH 3-30-1876).
    
    
  • "But the passage in question - 'I suffer not a woman to teach' - must be understood in a limited sense; for it is most assuredly the duty of mothers to teach their children. And the apostle in Titus 2:4, makes it the duty of aged women to teach the young women to be sober, and love their husbands and children. Hence we conclude that the teaching referred to bears a strong relation to usurping authority over the man, mentioned in the same verse" (RH 4-22-1862).
    
    
  So, like J.H. Waggoner, James White was all for women preaching while at the same time he was against women serving in positions of authority that would violate Paul's counsel.
  
  
• Regarding the 1881 GC Session resolution, it should be remembered that Uriah Smith was one of the three members of the committee on resolutions that proposed that resolution, and this is how he expressed his views in 1875:
  
  
  • "The leadership and authority is vested in the man. 'Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.' Gen. 3:16. This order is not to be reversed, and the woman take the position which has been assigned to the man; and every action on her part which shows that she is usurping this authority, is disorderly, and not to be allowed. Hence Paul says plainly to Timothy, 1 Tim. 2:12, 'But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.' There is no doubt but it was the very same point, the usurping of authority over the man, that the same apostle had in view in 1 Cor. 14:34." (ST 8-26-1875)
  
  So either Smith changed his views between 1875 and 1881, or he saw nothing contradictory between the above views and the 1881 resolution, or he was outvoted by the other two members of the committee. But his views as expressed above are clear.
  
  
• Back to 4T 390. What did Ellen White mean by "pastoral labor" in that statement? She meant doing personal labor while visiting in people's homes, not preaching from pulpits. In fact, she was quite plain that some ministers failed to do pastoral labor even though they were preaching. See Ev 440; GW15 337; 4T 465; 9MR 343-344.
  
  
• This is why 4T 390 says that literature work prepares one for pastoral labor, because it educates one in how to come close to the people in their homes and call for decisions. And the reason why men and women should learn how to do pastoral labor is because these older established members need to care for the new members "who have conscientiously withdrawn from other churches for the truth's sake, and thus cut themselves off from the pastoral labor to which they have been accustomed" (Ev 351).
  
  
• And why are new members "cut ... off from the pastoral labor" they are used to? Because our ministers are out raising up new churches rather than hovering over established churches.

[Snoopy]

Why clarify what Ellen White said?  She was just a woman.

I refuse to get sucked in to this again.  This spiritual bullying in the name of the Bible is not of the God I serve.

Thank you, Child of the King, for your perspectives.

[childoftheking]

I do not believe that I have been saying that the power struggle is always strictly divided along gender lines. I believe I used the words some of the women and some of the old guys (forgive me using slang when referring thus to "elders"). But I believe Daryl referred to some of the tares possibly being in leadership psitions. I hear you Daryl. And I do not believe that everyone opposed to wo is male or that the motives I mentioned are the motives of all. I do not believe that all the males in positions of authority want to hang on to status.  I definitely know that the women I have talked with do not covet ordination for themselves. But some would not like it to be forbidden for other women depending on the circumstances. Some female workers may have been widowed or deserted and have families to support. They may not be able to devote their time without receiving a paycheck for instance and some are probably already doing the work without pay or ordination.

That does not mean that the power struggle is not a subconscious motive among those who do not even recognize it in themselves. It is. I know the disciples did not always know their own hearts until Jesus pointed out the problems with their attitudes. Note Peter wielding a sword at Jesus' arrest. Often zeal in a seemingly righteous cause has not always achieved what Christ intended at all. It is the pugnacious attitude that I am so tired of. If others have made misstatatements either deliberately or not, Bob, please in the spirit of Christ forgive! Do not assign bad motives to them or think they are on the wrong side. just because you can find flaws.

[Bob Pickle]

Why clarify what Ellen White said?

Because sometimes words change their meanings. The article in question made a point of Ellen White using the phrase "pastoral labor," and that phrase means something different today than how Ellen White herself used it.

[Bob Pickle]

If others have made misstatatements either deliberately or not, Bob, please in the spirit of Christ forgive! Do not assign bad motives to them or think they are on the wrong side. just because you can find flaws.

Dave Gemmell wrote to me on March 11, in part as follows: "I am well aware that the word ‘pastor’ as we use it today is somewhat different than in the 19th century.  I did not have the space to get into the nuances of the definition of pastor in that short article. Perhaps another time."

Thus, I think he is saying that he knew that there wasn't one female pastor for every 5000 members at some point between the 1870's and the Great Depression. One female minister and/or Bible worker and/or literature evangelist, maybe, but not one female pastor.

Certainly we can forgive such misrepresentations. However, if we are going to preserve Christian unity, and if we want a yes vote to be respected, then that yes vote has to be obtained through a fair presentation of truth. That is my concern.

Regarding Ty's article, I have seen nothing that would suggest that Ty was aware that "pastoral labor" meant something different than what we think of today. But I do think that he should issue some sort of correction to his article in the interest of Christian unity and fairness.

[Snoopy]

Why clarify what Ellen White said?

Because sometimes words change their meanings. The article in question made a point of Ellen White using the phrase "pastoral labor," and that phrase means something different today than how Ellen White herself used it.

Bob, you just eliminated the integral, second part of my question/statement and thus changed my meaning!  You have a documented history of doing that!!

Why clarify what Ellen White said?  She was just a woman.

[Snoopy]

Why clarify what Ellen White said?

Because sometimes words change their meanings. The article in question made a point of Ellen White using the phrase "pastoral labor," and that phrase means something different today than how Ellen White herself used it.

Bob, you just eliminated the integral, second part of my question/statement and thus changed my meaning!  You have a documented history of doing that!!  I think your posts are a prime example of the point the OP was trying to make.  But, carry on.  It is like banging one's head against a wall.  Now I remember why I quit posting here!! 

Why clarify what Ellen White said?  She was just a woman.

[Bob Pickle]

Snoopy,

I'm not necessarily going to pick up on your meaning, and there are certain types of comments that I will try to overlook, which also goes along with what the OP was trying to say.

In the Bible, women could serve as prophets in both the OT and the NT. As such the divine messages Jesus delivered via the Holy Spirit could certainly be cited, and clarified if the hearers or readers needed that.

But I'm thinking you're driving at something else, and I'm unsure what it is.

[Snoopy]

Snoopy,

I'm not necessarily going to pick up on your meaning, and there are certain types of comments that I will try to overlook, which also goes along with what the OP was trying to say.

In the Bible, women could serve as prophets in both the OT and the NT. As such the divine messages Jesus delivered via the Holy Spirit could certainly be cited, and clarified if the hearers or readers needed that.

But I'm thinking you're driving at something else, and I'm unsure what it is.

My meaning was clear.  If you did not get it, you are not as intelligent as I once thought you were.

You overlook those comments which do not support your own viewpoint, precisely what the OP was trying to say.

You know exactly what I am saying.  Do not try to pretend you do not.  That would be disingenuous on your part.  As the Biblical scholar you present yourself to be, do not try to play games with me.  We have too much history together.  I kept copies of all of the case references you asked me for.  And I would not hesitate to testify against you if asked.

[Bob Pickle]

You overlook those comments which do not support your own viewpoint, precisely what the OP was trying to say.

If it seems sarcastic, I may overlook it rather than respond to it. Especially if I'm trying not to upset someone.

No, I don't know for sure what you meant. "Why clarify what Ellen White said? Ellen White was just a woman." Why clarify? Because words may mean something different today than what they meant in her day. Just a woman? Well, in the Bible women could serve as prophets, and what they said needed to be respected because their messages were God's message, given by Christ through the Holy Spirit.

But I don't think I'm getting your meaning. I honestly don't think that you were raising the question of why I believe Ellen White had the gift of prophecy if she was just a woman, because that idea wouldn't really fit the first sentence. That's a question that gets raised outside, not within, Adventism, and is answered in any basic Bible study on the gift of prophecy. Thus I'm left wondering what you really did mean.

After all, I am a man, and men sometimes don't catch on to the implied meanings that women know are there.

And I would not hesitate to testify against you if asked.

The topic COTK started here is "1888." How familiar are you with that topic? They had a disagreement as to the law in Galatians and the identity of one of the 10 horns at the 1888 Minneapolis GC Session, and things got ugly. COTK is calling for us not to repeat the past at this GC Session by getting ugly over a theological disagreement.

Overlooking sarcastic comments in order to avoid getting into some sort of squabble, that would go along with the OP. Insults and threats do not.

[Snoopy]

I have a complete understanding of what COTK is saying.

Apologies if you were insulted.  I know I have been quite insulted by some of your statements as well.

[christian]

I have been out of the church for some time now, and the results of my departure have been eye opening. For once I have been able to look back and reflect on the abuse that I took and ask the question, why? I have come to the conclusion that my problem was that I confused the church with Jesus, in that I was making them one and the same.
    I listen to one prominent minister discuss the issue of women's ordination and end with the remark that whatever the church at large decided that he would be faithful to the church. I have come to the conclusion after reading the pro's and con's on women's ordination that the bible and spirit of prophecy can be used to justify any action the church takes because the church has become God. Like Israel of old the people became confused by the leaders as to what constituted God and what the churches roll actually was. The real problem as I see it is that the church is no longer an entity design to promote the coming of Jesus but is now design to be self perpetuating. I realize that if the church was actually going about doing the work of the Lord that the question, in my opinion of women's ordination, would not be an issue at all. Women's ordination is an outgrowth of the church because the church is a business and those in positions of leadership by in large hold positions of power and a good living. Every single step from accreditation of our colleges by the world, to Adventist Hospitals that do not promote the health message have lead to the current condition and crisis that the church stands at currently. And the reason is that the people in the pews and pulpit have been fooled into believing that the church is not only a representation of God but is in fact God on earth and to leave her will in essence be to leave Jesus and God no matter how corrupt she becomes. It is clear that the issue of women's ordination is a result not of spiritual enlightenment but simply a reaction to the changing times of nominal religion as a whole. I have come to the strong conclusion that they will also be forced to except the gay agenda and will back it up with spirit of prophecy and bible text. I know there are those that will think me mad but remember it was the church, made God by its leaders, that killed Jesus. I don't believe that the people on both sides of this discussion are sane or capable since most see the church as God and that separation would mean they no longer have Jesus or heaven. The example of the parents that would not confess the deity of Jesus when he open the eyes of their blind son, who was born blind will be repeated by many in the Adventist Church.
     Do you think it an accident the church trademarked its name? The church is waiting and preparing to play the part of persecutor and murderer of the savior as in times past. History will repeat itself but in a more marked way.

[Bob Pickle]

christian,

I wonder if in some way you still identify as a Seventh-day Adventist, since you referred to "our colleges."

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." That doesn't mean the church is God on earth.

[christian]

christian,

I wonder if in some way you still identify as a Seventh-day Adventist, since you referred to "our colleges."

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." That doesn't mean the church is God on earth.

And the rest of that statement says what? The lord will sift the wheat from the tare the real from the fake. These statements are not talking about the corporate church either that is why the bible says I have other sheep of my fold them too must I call. No I do not identify as a Seventh-day Adventist and that is the trap or brainwashing that has been so drilled into the minds of Adventist people. The fact that many think being an Adventist somehow makes them closer to God is a trap of satan. Adventist call the protestant churches Babylon  because they don't follow all the commandments, yet in the same breath from the pulpit it is preached that you cannot keep the commandments. Actually, there is an ongoing debate which is crazy as to whether you can keep the commandment. Yet at the same time they say you must keep the Sabbath particularly in order to be saved. Yet if you break one you are guilty of all and the pastor will tell you in a minute that no one is keeping all of Gods law, sounds confusing doesn't it? The Adventist Church did something that Ellen G. White never intended, to trademark the sabbath and the second coming. The Adventist people are becoming like the followers Jim Jones, they are willingly drinking the cool aid. Where was the outrage and people in the pews withholding their tithe for the work of God?

[Bob Pickle]

Adventist call the protestant churches Babylon  because they don't follow all the commandments, yet in the same breath from the pulpit it is preached that you cannot keep the commandments.

As far as preaching that you can't keep the commandments, even with he help of God, that doesn't get preached here.

The reason most Protestant churches are considered part of Babylon is because (a) they are teaching the same false doctrines, the same wine of Babylon, that Rome is, (b) they are considered her "daughters," even by Rome herself, which calls herself the "mother church," and (c) the Protestant churches rejected the biblical message that Christ's coming is near, because they preferred post-millennialism.


"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." I take it that you believe that Ellen White was not referring to the Seventh-day Adventist Church when she wrote that. What evidence do you have to support that conclusion?

An earlier portion of the same Letter 55, 1886 said, "Let the churches who claim to believe the truth, who are advocating the law of God, keep that law and depart from all iniquity. Let the individual members of the church resist the temptations to practice evils and indulge in sin. Let the church commence the work of purification before God by repentance, humiliation, deep heart searching, for we are in the antitypical day of atonement--solemn hour fraught with eternal results" (2SM 378; 12MR 320-321). Whatever we say that Ellen White meant by "church" in that later sentence must jive with what she meant by "church" in this earlier paragraph.