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[Battle Creek]

Taking part in these discussions has been a personal help to me. They show me how some of the most devoted Seventh-day Adventist are reading Scripture and the writings of Ellen White with the attitude of a pharisee. What we need to see is Jesus Christ and His glory. It would not hurt any of us to re-read Steps to Christ again and again until we have rediscovered Him as a personal Savior.

[Bob Pickle]

We can read Steps to Christ, for sure, but that does not change the basic issue. You had suggested that those who resist women's ordination are somehow going contrary to the Spirit of Prophecy. In response, I stated that I thought that those who resist it are on average more accepting of the counsels of the Spirit of Prophecy than those who promote it.

You mention face colors, cuff links, and tie holders. The same sort of survey could be done regarding those things as well, and it wouldn't surprise me if you discovered some sort of correlation there too.

[Battle Creek]

Selective inspiration? Is that the way to go?

[Battle Creek]

I noticed that Battle Creek never responded to Kevin Paulson's direct quote.

Here is what Kevin Paulson posted himself in Spectrum:

Kevin Paulson cfowler • 6 days ago

I would reassign women who were in senior pastoral positions to positions consistent with Biblical gender role distinctions. In a multi-staff church, I strongly believe there is a place for women on the pastoral team, as they are best able to deal with women's and family issues and can take many other responsibilities as well. Headship roles in such a situation would only include the senior pastor's job and that of the administrative associate, if there is such a position in such a setting. All other roles, from what I find in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy, can be filled by qualified women.

[Bob Pickle]

Selective inspiration? Is that the way to go?

I don't think so.

I noticed that Battle Creek never responded to Kevin Paulson's direct quote.

Here is what Kevin Paulson posted himself in Spectrum:

Kevin Paulson cfowler • 6 days ago

I would reassign women who were in senior pastoral positions to positions consistent with Biblical gender role distinctions. In a multi-staff church, I strongly believe there is a place for women on the pastoral team, as they are best able to deal with women's and family issues and can take many other responsibilities as well. Headship roles in such a situation would only include the senior pastor's job and that of the administrative associate, if there is such a position in such a setting. All other roles, from what I find in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy, can be filled by qualified women.

This sounds like what I was hearing some say a number of years ago. Any evidence that this is a new position for Kevin?

[Battle Creek]

Back to the subject. When I met Cindy Tutch she spoke very highly of Bob Pickle and how the two of you had cooperated in the Ellen G White Estate. She was a member of the TOSC committe and here is her account of the events there:

Reflections on the TOSC
.

by Cindy Tutsch, June 8, 2014
 
In the hotel elevator this morning:
 
Him:  You look nice this morning!
 
Me:  Thank you!  I'm going to church.
 
Him:  Church?  It's Saturday!
 
Me:  Yes.  I'm a Seventh-day Adventist.
 
Him:  Are you in town on business?
 
Me: I served this week on a committee my church convened to study the issue of ordination.  I voted yes to the ordination of women, because I serve a God who created humanity equal.
 
Him (nodding vigorously):  So do I; so do I!
 
Elevator door opens.  Man wishes me well.
                                                                             
So, there it is. My choice to support Group #2 is not about civil rights, feminism, liberalism, higher-critical biblical interpretation, ascendancy of women, taking men’s place, competing with men for jobs, prestige, or any of the fear-driven assumptions others have made about those who signed on to Group #2.
 
Instead, my choice is based on the character and purposes of the God I serve, and on allowing the Holy Spirit to anoint whom He will.
 
Though I appreciate the efforts of Group #3 to recommend regional adaptations of the ordination of women, the proposal is built on a premise that women are “second best,” “not God’s ideal,” “permitted as a last resort.”  In other words, God likes me less!  I cannot, therefore, support the proposal of Group #3* because it casts an ugly smear on God’s character and creation.
 
Actually, such gender bias is not a new perversion of God’s ideal.  Anciently, every Jewish man prayed daily, “Thank God I am not a Gentile, a slave, or a woman.”  But in Galatians 3:27, Paul goes beyond the question of who may be granted salvation to address ethnicity, slavery, and gender, pointing God’s people back to Creation perfection in each of these categories.
 
Therefore, building on the belief and practice of the Adventist pioneers, Adventists continue to reject the false doctrine of exclusive male leadership [headship] in the church, and promote the restoration of Eden’s ideal for all relationships.
 
Were we to come together on this issue that has troubled and distracted us far too long, we could focus on the “weightier” matters of mission and message, and have energy to promote our historic positions on Creation, sexuality, and inspiration.  With the vote of 2/3 of the TOSC allowing for regional adaptations, leadership could now move us forward toward resolution through accommodation of the needs in the local field.  Instead, efforts to minimize the significance of the vote signals that some may be planning to continue expending time, money, and effort to perpetually combat this issue, rather than working toward unity in diversity.** 
 
Group #3 states, “We do not see this pattern [of male leadership] as a moral absolute or universal divine command, or of sacramental or salvific significance.”  With these words in mind, please read carefully the Going Forward document of Group #2.  In this proposal, no entity is coerced, no union forced to act outside of its collective constituents’ conviction.
 
Could you sign on?   
 
The Way Forward—Group #2
 
Aware of our high calling as Seventh-day Adventists, we eagerly anticipate the soon coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  We passionately believe that “God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms” (GC 596). The Scriptural affirmation that God shows no partiality (Gen 1, 2; Gal 3:26-28; Col 3:11-17; 1 Peter 2:8-10; Acts 10:34) and the urgency of our mission (Mt 28:18-20; Mt 24:14; Rev 14:6-12) drive us to include all believers, both men and women, in using the gifts God has given them, and appropriately affirm them in their ministry.  God created men and women in the image of God (Gen 1:26-28), and although this ideal was disrupted by sin, Christ restored the ideal, and in the New Testament we see both men and women ministering. God works continuously to complete this restoration. We see the restoration of this ideal in: (1) Paul’s affirmation of the restoration of equality (Gal 3; Eph 2:14-22; cf Rev 5:10); (2) participation of women in the ministry of the early church (Lk 8:1-3; Rm 16:1, 2, 7; Acts 18:2, 26); and, (3) the Spirit’s working in the ministry of women in the church today.
 
The recently adopted consensus statement on ordination declares, “ordination is an act of commissioning that acknowledges God’s call, sets the individual apart, and appoints the person to serve the church in a special capacity.” Furthermore, it is an invocation of “God’s blessing upon those chosen to the work of ministry.” This understanding of ordination is consistent whether we ordain a deacon or a deaconess, an elder or a pastor.
 
Throughout Adventist history we have often faced theological and ecclesiastical issues that have caused differences among us. Despite vigorous debate at times, we have remained united as one body under Christ pursuing our unique God-given mission. “We cannot then take a position that the unity of the church consists in viewing every text of Scripture in the very same light. .  .  . Nothing can perfect unity in the church but the spirit of Christ-like forbearance” (Ellen G White, “Love, the Need of the Church,” 11MR 266).
 
Fundamental Belief #14 on “Unity in the Body of Christ” states that, “Distinctions of race, culture, learning, nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another. We are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation.” On the basis of this Fundamental Belief, the General Conference has established policies regulating responsibilities within the Church including employment practices recognizing women in leadership roles (see GC Working Policy BA-60). These policies reflect our convictions on the doctrine of spiritual gifts: that the Holy Spirit calls both men and women to service and that all spiritual gifts are gender inclusive (1 Cor 12:11; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:17-21). The Church has taken action to allow for the ordination of deaconesses and female elders and the commissioning of female pastors. Although these church policies and practices are implemented differently throughout the world, the church has remained a unified, worldwide organization pressing together in mission and message.
 
Following the Bible and the counsel of Ellen White, the Church acknowledges the need to adapt its practices to the needs of the people it seeks to reach. Regional diversity in the practice of women’s ordination will ensure that no entity will be compelled to do so against the will of its constituency. As in other matters, faithfulness to Scripture and mutual respect for one another are essential for the unity of the Church.
Therefore, because we accept the Bible’s call to give witness to God’s impartiality and believe that disunity and fragmentation will be the inevitable result of enforcing only one perspective in all regions, we propose that:

    Each entity responsible for calling pastors be authorized to choose either to have only men as ordained pastors; or to have both men and women as ordained pastors.  [This choice will be protected by guarantees in the relevant documents of each union, division and the General Conference, so that no entity can be directed against its will to adopt a position other than the one to which the collective conscience of its constituency points.]
    The union, at which organizational level decisions for ordination have historically been made in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, be enabled by its Division to make the decision as to whether to approve the ordination of both men and women to gospel ministry.

We hereby rededicate our lives to God and pledge allegiance to His Word as we fulfil the Great Commission the Lord has entrusted to His Church.  Maranatha.  Come Lord Jesus.
 
 
*You may view all three of the proposals for going forward at adventistarchives.org
 
**”Unity in diversity” is a phrase Ellen White uses over 30 times.

[Bob Pickle]

Anciently, every Jewish man prayed daily, “Thank God I am not a Gentile, a slave, or a woman.”

Anyone have a reference that would support this statement? Is it supposed to be in the Talmud or where? Or is it apocryphal?

Therefore, building on the belief and practice of the Adventist pioneers, Adventists continue to reject the false doctrine of exclusive male leadership [headship] in the church, and promote the restoration of Eden’s ideal for all relationships.

Yet as we have seen here, our pioneers did feel that ordination of women as gospel ministers was inappropriate given certain key Bible texts.

Regional diversity in the practice of women’s ordination will ensure that no entity will be compelled to do so against the will of its constituency. ...

Each entity responsible for calling pastors be authorized to choose either to have only men as ordained pastors; or to have both men and women as ordained pastors.  [This choice will be protected by guarantees in the relevant documents of each union, division and the General Conference, so that no entity can be directed against its will to adopt a position other than the one to which the collective conscience of its constituency points.]

Do the above words indicate that no local church will be forced to accept the ordination of women to the gospel ministry against the will of its constituency? I don't think it quite makes such a guarantee, but it should.

[tinka]

If this is the correct view of whats going on in the committee I see from this the presence of the "great fumbler of words" into the total lack of common sense, truth and utter play of distortion of God's creation to "unisex" understanding or equality of human gender. Unisex is never ever what God Created in mind or body. Therefore his creation was unique in man doing what he is meant to do and woman meant to do what she can do. The only thing equal is God's Love for both and accomplishing together what the other cannot do as help mate to each other.  The rest is malarkey, confusion and might add how easy the devil can come up with all this mindset, diversion and distortion of Scripture to fit into the devils web. Roll on into the fate of compromising in great strides of distruction while the standard bearers morn and pray for the lost deceived souls caught in this web. Some women who think they hear the "call" is no more then following a cow bellowing over the hill somewhere from their planted drive of gender equality.  This is one instance or example of traveling in your own misgiving pathway that you are left to travel. A true woman Bible Worker does not need credentials to accent her desire to work for God unless a paycheck is involved for doing so.  If church wants to give compensation for Pastors wife or woman doing special work in church for help for her educated professional services so be it if that's their choice to do. Other wise her reward is waiting under God's Employment plan of her ministry in what field she chooses.  Of course since man was supposed to be head of house and supporter of family God's plan was tithe. The Emerging church is emerging! "Eve" has not learned her lesson yet! Now she wants credentials for her gender equality!

 Me,?? I enjoyed being the woman I was meant to be by the husband that was meant to be. He no way could do my part as a mother nor could I do his as a father. But together all "became" equal and quite a beautiful plan of simplicity in what God's equality meant. God knew what he was doing in choosing and trusting very humble sincere way of EGW. who thought credentials to her was slap in face to God. Still this "woman's ordination" can't grasp this picture in any common sense or form of understanding other then her great desire of "unisex equality. That tells me one thing, NO good man or lack of something in her life that she wanders into another realm!! But in this generation who would understand this now? 

[Battle Creek]

Anciently, every Jewish man prayed daily, “Thank God I am not a Gentile, a slave, or a woman.”

Anyone have a reference that would support this statement? Is it supposed to be in the Talmud or where? Or is it apocryphal?

As we were going through the Sabbath School lesson in church this morning a retired school principal told us he has a Jewish friend who says his morning prayer as he is getting dressed. He has a prayer for each piece of garment he puts on, and then at the close of his prayer he also thanks God he was not born in the body of a woman.

The old traditions still linger.

Therefore, building on the belief and practice of the Adventist pioneers, Adventists continue to reject the false doctrine of exclusive male leadership [headship] in the church, and promote the restoration of Eden’s ideal for all relationships.

Yet as we have seen here, our pioneers did feel that ordination of women as gospel ministers was inappropriate given certain key Bible texts.

I have noticed that you have made the study of our pioneers a specialty of yours.

In the new Encyclopedia where you are the author of a section, there is quite a bit information about the difference between the opinions of several of the pioneers and Ellen G. White.

In agreement with my acceptance of the Spirit of Prophecy I have chosen to side with Ellen White. What is your choice?

Regional diversity in the practice of women’s ordination will ensure that no entity will be compelled to do so against the will of its constituency. ...

Each entity responsible for calling pastors be authorized to choose either to have only men as ordained pastors; or to have both men and women as ordained pastors.  [This choice will be protected by guarantees in the relevant documents of each union, division and the General Conference, so that no entity can be directed against its will to adopt a position other than the one to which the collective conscience of its constituency points.]

Do the above words indicate that no local church will be forced to accept the ordination of women to the gospel ministry against the will of its constituency? I don't think it quite makes such a guarantee, but it should.

No disagreement. Even I have experienced that a local church did not accept me as their pastor when the conference assigned me to serve that church. The local church had decided they wanted to manage without a pastor and do evangelism on their own. So much better for them.

[Battle Creek]

I could have added that this happened after I had officially retired from the ministry, so I was not looking for work. The conference then asked me to serve as a pastor of two other churches.

[Bob Pickle]

As we were going through the Sabbath School lesson in church this morning a retired school principal told us he has a Jewish friend who says his morning prayer as he is getting dressed. He has a prayer for each piece of garment he puts on, and then at the close of his prayer he also thanks God he was not born in the body of a woman.

She said that was the prayer that was said in ancient times. I would like to see some sort of reference substantiating that. What someone is praying today does not prove what they said in ancient times.

In agreement with my acceptance of the Spirit of Prophecy I have chosen to side with Ellen White. What is your choice?

But since Ellen White never said that we should ordain women to serve as gospel ministers (as that term is understood), there is no choice to be made on this question.

[Battle Creek]

As we were going through the Sabbath School lesson in church this morning a retired school principal told us he has a Jewish friend who says his morning prayer as he is getting dressed. He has a prayer for each piece of garment he puts on, and then at the close of his prayer he also thanks God he was not born in the body of a woman.

She said that was the prayer that was said in ancient times. I would like to see some sort of reference substantiating that. What someone is praying today does not prove what they said in ancient times.

Dr. Eliezer Segal is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Calgary. A native of Montreal, he holds a PhD in Talmud from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He is the author of Holidays, History, and Halakhah, and many of his writings can be found on his personal website.

The "has not created me a woman" blessing is part of a subgroup that expresses similar gratitude for not having been created a gentile (i.e., a heathen) or a slave. Differing liturgical traditions are at variance over whether these three blessings are to appear near the beginning of the sequence or at its conclusion.

This inconsistency attests to an important fact: The three "who has not made me" blessings were not originally part of the same set as the others. They originate in a separate Talmudic passage, ascribed to the second-century sage Rabbi Judah bar Ilai. Earlier versions of the tradition read "ignoramus" instead of "slave."

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Liturgy_and_Prayers/Siddur_Prayer_Book/Preliminary_Readings/Who_Has_Not_Made_Me_a_Woman.shtml?p=1

In agreement with my acceptance of the Spirit of Prophecy I have chosen to side with Ellen White. What is your choice?

But since Ellen White never said that we should ordain women to serve as gospel ministers (as that term is understood), there is no choice to be made on this question.

There we just read the words of Ellen White with a different attitude. As I have several times shown before, I see it clearly that this is what Ellen White claims, and it seems to me it is crystal clear as long as one has not developed a negative attitude based on old Roman Catholic and Jewish traditions as thanking God for not being born a woman.

[Battle Creek]

First it was Socrates (470-399 BC) who immortalized the Athenian disdain toward women. He was the first to refer to women as the weaker sex. He taught that:  "Being born a woman is a divine punishment, since a woman is halfway between a man and an animal" (Bristow) (Plato, Timaeus, Baltimore: Penguin, 1965)

Dr. Bengt Hägglund, professor of history of Christian theology at the University of Lund, has shown how the teachings of the Christian church during the first centuries were shaped because the leaders of the church attempted to "improve" their teachings by adopting what was considered "better" in the teachings of the pagans etc. and finally adopted by the Roman Catholic church.

This shaped the view of the early Christians as they adopted the pagan view of women.

[Bob Pickle]

In agreement with my acceptance of the Spirit of Prophecy I have chosen to side with Ellen White. What is your choice?

But since Ellen White never said that we should ordain women to serve as gospel ministers (as that term is understood), there is no choice to be made on this question.

There we just read the words of Ellen White with a different attitude. As I have several times shown before, I see it clearly that this is what Ellen White claims, and it seems to me it is crystal clear as long as one has not developed a negative attitude based on old Roman Catholic and Jewish traditions as thanking God for not being born a woman.

But I've never seen you quote here anything from Ellen White that calls for us to ordain women as gospel ministers. If you've found such a statement, by all means quote it here.

First it was Socrates (470-399 BC) who immortalized the Athenian disdain toward women. He was the first to refer to women as the weaker sex. He taught that:  "Being born a woman is a divine punishment, since a woman is halfway between a man and an animal" (Bristow) (Plato, Timaeus, Baltimore: Penguin, 1965)

Dr. Bengt Hägglund, professor of history of Christian theology at the University of Lund, has shown how the teachings of the Christian church during the first centuries were shaped because the leaders of the church attempted to "improve" their teachings by adopting what was considered "better" in the teachings of the pagans etc. and finally adopted by the Roman Catholic church.

This shaped the view of the early Christians as they adopted the pagan view of women.

It makes your position look weak when you resort to pejorative comments about the other position, rather than showing from the Bible and/or Spirit of Prophecy that God wants women to serve in all positions of leadership, despite the curse of gen. 3, despite no women serving as Levitical priests, despite no women serving as some of the 12, and despite Paul's prohibition against such positions.

In short, it makes your position look very weak when the best you can come up with in support of your position is to accuse the other position of being pagan or Catholic.

[Battle Creek]

Ellen’s brother was not the last to object to her preaching. After speaking in a tiny Northern California town in 1880, she shared in a letter to her husband, James, some backstage information: “Elder Haskell talked in the afternoon and his labors were well received. I had in the evening, it was stated, the largest congregation that had ever assembled at Arbuckle. The house was full. Many came from five to ten and twelve miles. The Lord gave me special power in speaking. The congregation listened as if spell-bound. Not one left the house although I talked above one hour. Before I commenced talking, Elder Haskell had a bit [piece] of paper that was handed [him] in quoting [a] certain text prohibiting women speaking in public. He took up the matter in a brief manner and very clearly expressed the meaning of the apostles words. I understand it was a Cambelite [sic] who wrote the objection and it had been well circulated [among the audience] before it reached the desk; but Elder Haskell made it all plain before the people" (Letter 17a, April 1, 1880; Manuscript Releases, vol. 10, p. 70)

Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit in darkness.—The Review and Herald, July 9, 1895.{PaM 224.3}

It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}