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[Battle Creek]

Kirkpatrick's response to this document can be found at http://ordinationtruth.com/2014/05/06/kirkpatrick-response-to-chudleigh-on-headship-theology/

http://ordinationtruth.com/featured/homosexuality-or-christianity/ should also be a concern.

Yes, I have read this and come to realize that Kirkpatrick is replacing Ellen White these days to the unawares.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I noticed that Battle Creek never responded to Kevin Paulson's direct quote.

Pastor Kevin Paulson gave me permission to post the following as written by him:

This is a truncated description of my understanding, which isn't
surprising coming from the source you cite.

     What I believe, on the basis of Scripture, is that headship roles
in ministry are reserved for men, on the basis of the original created
order (I Tim. 2:12-13).  As the Seventh-day Adventist Church is
structured, this would mean that such offices as that of local church
elder, senior pastor, administrative associate pastor, Conference
president, Conference executive secretary, and Conference ministerial
direction, would be reserved for males only.

     This doesn't mean women would have no role in working with men.
The above limitation would not apply to departmental positions at both
the local church and Conference level, nor would it apply to associate
pastors involved in matters other than administration.  Schoolteachers
and principals, for example, are all under the administrative guidance
of pastors and Conference leaders, so those roles wouldn't be
restricted to men either.

     Without question, it will take some time and forethought for
church leaders to articulate and apply the Biblical headship principle
to all areas of denominational life.  But it can and must be applied
if we are to remain faithful to the Biblical order of authority in the
home as well as the church.

[Battle Creek]

I noticed that Battle Creek never responded to Kevin Paulson's direct quote.

I did not see that it changed anything.

[Bob Pickle]

Thank you for this information. That explains why Ellen White wrote a warning against following Waggoner at the beginning of the 20th century.

I do not recall any warning by Ellen White against following J H Waggoner.

It also explains why in the good old days when our Bible teachers still believed that Ellen White was the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy, never mentioned this now revived heresy of male headship. You belong to a younger generation that did not learn to trust Ellen White the way our generation experienced it. This new generation claims to follow Ellen White, but it seems to me like it only happens where her writings do not contradict their preconceived prejudices or the new prophets and televangelists who are replacing Ellen White.

I certainly don't recall any warning of Ellen White about rejecting women's ordination, and therefore I don't think it fair to suggest that those who oppose women's ordination are somehow going against the Spirit of Prophecy. Furthermore, if you were to survey the two camps, I suspect you would find that those who oppose women's ordination generally have a greater regard for the Spirit of Prophecy than those who do not. There of course would be exceptions, but I suspect that's what you would generally find.

[tinka]

Bob,
If you have access to White estate click in search "course of Waggoner" and find EGW comments and letters. I have been following along for all this time and saw all this coming long time ago and watched who was falling to these concepts. You cannot change these adversary's of EGW.

You know where I am at in the conference that seems to be leading the way of this progression or sure enough helping it along. I'm sure you read the seeds of this by Wohlberg.

I just want to state that unless these people have read cover to cover and context by context by the specific field she's talking about that are for "women's ordination" will they never ever convince me -because it proves to me one thing on their part. They can only pick and choose what they think convinces them of their own opinions in one nook or cranny or the right sounding word to them. 

Back then, same as today only worse the people will have their own way and make their own rules in everything they desire it to be. Yes, she stated frequently that women had a part in the Lords ministry in all fields of work, they even tried their best to lead out their own way by giving EGW credentials. She did not want or use what they insisted she have. You know her answer to that. NO where does she state Ordination of Man and the same for women. teachers yes, healthcare yes laborers yes, ordained preachers-no. God has appointed and used women for His use in all ages, but he does the choosing.  I heard D. Nelson come off and make his theory for this. and the other (3abn) star make his. I'm sure neither had the time to read every book cover to cover every context in all aspects of which she writes in for them to stand in their own theories although I do appreciate their heavy study at times.  If they did- they would have not figured out a way to move in the direction that the majority is now taking. The majority is moving in direction they most like to feel comfortable believing because of ministering in any field means Legal documents for pay. and.... that's their religion! Documents won't get you into the gates no more then the Amish driving horse and buggy.  For what reason is this other then the Adversaries way of division. Reading totally all will not confuse you which men of the pulpit in our world of SDA are of truth. The rest..deceived! It will be interesting for you to read about Waggoner and his wife and how he really was. But he was able to give good sermons and study as his education and ability was newspaper reporting. EGW is the pure factor to go by and had to endure mostly opposition same as here. Can you believe that when Jesus ordained EGW to be His messenger the people thought it important that "they" should ordain her? She was under the direction of the Holy Spirit. Just how arrogant can people get? She said it was like slapping God in the face to accept. As far as I'm concerned women are their own callers for preaching for paychecks. I believe the Ohio conference president's wife Buffy has Ordained Minister credentials and a pretty gold ring displayed.  Correct me please if I'm wrong. Progression is in - it appears! and we are the minority.

 The day I see a woman over powering a man for baptism, I am out of there. Can one imagine, Now a laughing matter to see.

[Battle Creek]

Thank you for this information. That explains why Ellen White wrote a warning against following Waggoner at the beginning of the 20th century.

I do not recall any warning by Ellen White against following J H Waggoner.

It also explains why in the good old days when our Bible teachers still believed that Ellen White was the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy, never mentioned this now revived heresy of male headship. You belong to a younger generation that did not learn to trust Ellen White the way our generation experienced it. This new generation claims to follow Ellen White, but it seems to me like it only happens where her writings do not contradict their preconceived prejudices or the new prophets and televangelists who are replacing Ellen White.

I certainly don't recall any warning of Ellen White about rejecting women's ordination, and therefore I don't think it fair to suggest that those who oppose women's ordination are somehow going against the Spirit of Prophecy. Furthermore, if you were to survey the two camps, I suspect you would find that those who oppose women's ordination generally have a greater regard for the Spirit of Prophecy than those who do not. There of course would be exceptions, but I suspect that's what you would generally find.

I only found it recently as I was looking for something else, but I failed to write down the reference. I was amazed, because I had never seen it before.

What tells you that those who are for the ordination of women have any less belief in the Spirit of Prophecy - except in statements by the "new" prophets who seem to replace Ellen White as the Spirit of Prophecy?

[Battle Creek]

I should have added that what you say about the acceptance of Ellen White is the opposite of what I have observed. Most of the people I know who support the ordination of women in the ministry accept fully Ellen White as the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Among those I know who oppose the ordination of women a majority accepts only her writings selectively, rejecting whatever does not harmonize with their preconceived views. I fear these are spearheading the final apostasy leading a great number of church members to reject our precious faith in Jesus Christ as our Redeemer.

[Bob Pickle]

What tells you that those who are for the ordination of women have any less belief in the Spirit of Prophecy - except in statements by the "new" prophets who seem to replace Ellen White as the Spirit of Prophecy?

That's my gut feeling. Do a survey and see if I am correct.

I should have added that what you say about the acceptance of Ellen White is the opposite of what I have observed. Most of the people I know who support the ordination of women in the ministry accept fully Ellen White as the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Does acceptance include seeking to put into practice counsels found therein?

[Bob Pickle]

Tinka,

Great to hear from you. Yes, I have run across counsel Ellen White sent to J. H. Waggoner, and even mentioned a particular incident in my book since it illustrated that at times Ellen White didn't come down hard enough, that incident being a clear cut example of such and one that she herself mentioned.

[Battle Creek]

Does acceptance include seeking to put into practice counsels found therein?

Definitely! Taking into consideration all that she has to say on that subject and not just someone else's personal interpretation of her words.

[Bob Pickle]

Does acceptance include seeking to put into practice counsels found therein?

Definitely! Taking into consideration all that she has to say on that subject and not just someone else's personal interpretation of her words.

One European country I have visited does not seem to take very seriously Ellen White's counsel regarding jewelry, but I suspect they don't have that much problem with women's ordination.

[tinka]

I should have added that what you say about the acceptance of Ellen White is the opposite of what I have observed. ( First mistake- never observe what someone else is doing. Most of the people and as she states- many of Adventists will fall.)) I know who support the ordination of women in the ministry accept fully Ellen White as the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. OF course they do and again they use it like some use scripture to seek sort out to prove their own beliefs this is nothing new that EGW encountered the whole time. So who will be at the finish line    the majority pleasing the people or the life lived by foundational instruction diligently read page by page and not persuaded by observing others. I would never take that chance. Stephen Bohr, Doug Bachelor, Carter, the Howard Brothers are right and the other stars are wrong. No fear here!  It's like the people claiming you should never ever eat an egg. Yes she states it ... but the context is shes stating to a whole family of obesity that they should never ever eat another egg. Did she mean that for everyone? NO but gave reason eggs were good in many incidents.
   
 
Among those I know who oppose the ordination of women a majority accepts only her writings selectively, rejecting whatever does not harmonize with their preconceived views. No these are the ones that read consistently as the contexts reveal in sequence. I fear these are spearheading the final apostasy leading a great number of church members to reject our precious faith in Jesus Christ as our Redeemer. You should fear for the progression of SDA joining the world to appease the people and not the Holy Spirit. If in doubt about the progression and definitely who spearheads it.  Look at all that is displayed against SOP.  Worship screaming high emotion jumping dancing, dress, jewelry, music, entertainment, woman's paychecks, must I go on. and now I see rituals starting. dance and traditions of supposedly our roots to get back to. It finally appears if you watch long enough it leads to worship the Sabbath day and not the God of the Sabbath Guess I won't go there,  took me a while to see this new strange stuff. Sure does lead you away from the simplicity in first foundational instructions of worship. Seems all cultures want their own worship these days instead of unity and worship that is unacceptable - that instruction for worship long out the door! very few churches left that want to be acceptable to God and not people 

[Battle Creek]

Does acceptance include seeking to put into practice counsels found therein?

Definitely! Taking into consideration all that she has to say on that subject and not just someone else's personal interpretation of her words.

One European country I have visited does not seem to take very seriously Ellen White's counsel regarding jewelry, but I suspect they don't have that much problem with women's ordination.

I was shocked when I came from Europe and observed all the face colors and decorations I saw on women in church in the United States of America. It made me think no Americans would ever get to heaven. I had never seen anything like that in Europe, including the one European country you have visited.

Who judges what? 

[Battle Creek]

I should have added that the women wore no metal in their decorations except their very expensive watches. Same with men and decorative tie holders and cuff links, indicating it was a very rich nation.

The jewelry you saw would be like toys for children in comparison.

[Battle Creek]

. Do a survey and see if I am correct.

That seems to be an evil thing to do, according to your freind.