Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dedication]

Are you also in harmony with the church's teaching of more than a century (the same one you came into the church under) that women are not to be ordained to the gospel ministry?

In 1881 the resolution was presented in a Seventh-day Adventist General conference session, that qualified women with perfect propriety, be set apart by ordination to the work of the christian ministry.

Anti-WO people make a big deal over the fact that a vote was never taken.

However, the fact no vote was ever taken also means there was NO formal vote taken against women's ordination.   It was simply filed away in some "we won't deal with it now" file by the GC committee to which it was presented.

While in the mean time (from 1879 to EGW's death) some 30 women were given ministerial licences.

[SDAminister]

It is interesting that the opposition to ordaining women is possibly the most common "doctrine" endorsed by as widely different religions as Islam, Buddhism, Orthodox Jews, Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Southern Baptists and 75% of Seventh-day Adventists. Could this become the common denominator which finally will lead all religions into one?

Hillary Clinton could be termed as the most powerful woman in the world today. She has stated: "Why extremists always focus on women remains a mystery to me. But they all seem to. It does not matter what country they're in or what religion they claim. They all want to control women."

The most extremist of all are the feminist organizations. They hate marriage; wifehood; motherhood; sex; families, and any profession that ONLY women are qualified to do. And they do encourage women to murder their own children.
There is no place for a woman demeaning enough but that a feminist won't lead them there.

It is not difficult to find an extreme, SDAminister, is it? You seem to know this branch much better than I do.

Just a few hours ago I received a phone call asking me to have the general lesson study in Sabbath School tomorrow. This means I have to delve still deeper into the lesson dealing with the Antichrist. I find this lesson fully in harmony with my faith and what our church has taught for more than a century.
.....

Are you also in harmony with the church's teaching of more than a century (the same one you came into the church under) that women are not to be ordained to the gospel ministry?

I made a statement that is true. Then you, Mr. SDAminister, spread the field into a loaded question.

Your question is based on a presumption. Therefore you need to verify that your presumption is right.

Let me simplify. Why did you join a church that does not teach the ordination of women in the same manner as men?

[SDAminister]

Are you also in harmony with the church's teaching of more than a century (the same one you came into the church under) that women are not to be ordained to the gospel ministry?

In 1881 the resolution was presented in a Seventh-day Adventist General conference session, that qualified women with perfect propriety, be set apart by ordination to the work of the christian ministry.

Anti-WO people make a big deal over the fact that a vote was never taken.

However, the fact no vote was ever taken also means there was NO formal vote taken against women's ordination.   It was simply filed away in some "we won't deal with it now" file by the GC committee to which it was presented.

While in the mean time (from 1879 to EGW's death) some 30 women were given ministerial licences.

Where is this "file" that you refer to?

And, being given a ministerial license is not the same as being ordained as a minister of the gospel. You know this. There are women today in our church who have received ministerial licenses, but they aren't ordained. If getting such a license was all it took, then why are they fighting for ordination?

Again, you guys keep moving the goalpost with each and every time you're shown to be wrong.

[Battle Creek]

It is interesting that the opposition to ordaining women is possibly the most common "doctrine" endorsed by as widely different religions as Islam, Buddhism, Orthodox Jews, Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Southern Baptists and 75% of Seventh-day Adventists. Could this become the common denominator which finally will lead all religions into one?

Hillary Clinton could be termed as the most powerful woman in the world today. She has stated: "Why extremists always focus on women remains a mystery to me. But they all seem to. It does not matter what country they're in or what religion they claim. They all want to control women."

The most extremist of all are the feminist organizations. They hate marriage; wifehood; motherhood; sex; families, and any profession that ONLY women are qualified to do. And they do encourage women to murder their own children.
There is no place for a woman demeaning enough but that a feminist won't lead them there.

It is not difficult to find an extreme, SDAminister, is it? You seem to know this branch much better than I do.

Just a few hours ago I received a phone call asking me to have the general lesson study in Sabbath School tomorrow. This means I have to delve still deeper into the lesson dealing with the Antichrist. I find this lesson fully in harmony with my faith and what our church has taught for more than a century.
.....

Are you also in harmony with the church's teaching of more than a century (the same one you came into the church under) that women are not to be ordained to the gospel ministry?

I made a statement that is true. Then you, Mr. SDAminister, spread the field into a loaded question.

Your question is based on a presumption. Therefore you need to verify that your presumption is right.

Let me simplify. Why did you join a church that does not teach the ordination of women in the same manner as men?

You cannot jump the fence this way by refusing to answer my point. You must verify that your presumption is right, because I do not believe it is. Show me where in the 28 fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church you find support for your presumption.

[SDAminister]

It is interesting that the opposition to ordaining women is possibly the most common "doctrine" endorsed by as widely different religions as Islam, Buddhism, Orthodox Jews, Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Southern Baptists and 75% of Seventh-day Adventists. Could this become the common denominator which finally will lead all religions into one?

Hillary Clinton could be termed as the most powerful woman in the world today. She has stated: "Why extremists always focus on women remains a mystery to me. But they all seem to. It does not matter what country they're in or what religion they claim. They all want to control women."

The most extremist of all are the feminist organizations. They hate marriage; wifehood; motherhood; sex; families, and any profession that ONLY women are qualified to do. And they do encourage women to murder their own children.
There is no place for a woman demeaning enough but that a feminist won't lead them there.

It is not difficult to find an extreme, SDAminister, is it? You seem to know this branch much better than I do.

Just a few hours ago I received a phone call asking me to have the general lesson study in Sabbath School tomorrow. This means I have to delve still deeper into the lesson dealing with the Antichrist. I find this lesson fully in harmony with my faith and what our church has taught for more than a century.
.....

Are you also in harmony with the church's teaching of more than a century (the same one you came into the church under) that women are not to be ordained to the gospel ministry?

I made a statement that is true. Then you, Mr. SDAminister, spread the field into a loaded question.

Your question is based on a presumption. Therefore you need to verify that your presumption is right.

Let me simplify. Why did you join a church that does not teach the ordination of women in the same manner as men?

You cannot jump the fence this way by refusing to answer my point. You must verify that your presumption is right, because I do not believe it is.

What are you defining is a presumption?

[Battle Creek]

Are you also in harmony with the church's teaching of more than a century (the same one you came into the church under) that women are not to be ordained to the gospel ministry?

I made a statement that is true. Then you, Mr. SDAminister, spread the field into a loaded question.

Your question is based on a presumption. Therefore you need to verify that your presumption is right.
[/quote]

Let me simplify. Why did you join a church that does not teach the ordination of women in the same manner as men?
[/quote]

You cannot jump the fence this way by refusing to answer my point. You must verify that your presumption is right, because I do not believe it is.
[/quote]

What are you defining is a presumption?
[/quote] The statement you made that I have emphasized above is a presumption.

[Battle Creek]

I am a third generation Seventh-day Adventist. None of us have ever joined a church which officially believes that women could not be ordained to the gospel ministry, nor do I belong to any such church today. Where in the fundamental beliefs of our church do you find such a statement?

[AVoiceInTheWilderness]

I am a third generation Seventh-day Adventist. None of us have ever joined a church which officially believes that women could not be ordained to the gospel ministry, nor do I belong to any such church today. Where in the fundamental beliefs of our church do you find such a statement?

Clearly, you have yet to truly understand the Sanctuary doctrine which is the foundation of the faith of Seventh-Day Adventists.

No true Adventist would speak the words which are coming out of your mouth.

[Battle Creek]

I am a third generation Seventh-day Adventist. None of us have ever joined a church which officially believes that women could not be ordained to the gospel ministry, nor do I belong to any such church today. Where in the fundamental beliefs of our church do you find such a statement?

Clearly, you have yet to truly understand the Sanctuary doctrine which is the foundation of the faith of Seventh-Day Adventists.

No true Adventist would speak the words which are coming out of your mouth.

It is interesting comparing your statement with a report from a recent conference for SDA pastors where members of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists were among the speakers. The part of the report given here below is a strong indication that the Sanctuary doctrine shows clearly why women can be ordained as gospel ministers:

One way for you to get acquainted with the matter is by reading pastor John Lorencin’s booklet on women’s ordination—it is available in English with the title Priestly Ministry in the Old and the New Testament: Should Women be Ordained? (2012) Pastor Lorencin was the Yugoslavian Union President until 1994 and used to be very much opposed to women’s ordination. He admits that he took a traditional view and under the influence of his cultural context where there were three main religions: Orthodox Christian, Roman Catholic Christian, and Islam. He had not formed his opinion on the basis of the Bible, so when he retired he decided to study ordination in the Bible. In his book, as a pastoral Bible reader, in simple language, he goes through the whole Bible. He finds that in the New Testament, Christ has taken over the sacrificial priestly office from the Old Testament, so it is no more. Instead, Christ has fulfilled the sacrificial system and become our high priest in heaven where he now offers his benefits for us to God. As our high priest, he is also the head of the body of Christ, the church, which consists of the priesthood of all believers, which makes no distinction between male and female. He also points out that there is no word for ‘ordination’ in the Bible. It is used in the King James Version from 1611, but it is there based on old Roman Catholic translations from the 14th and 15th centuries. In fact, pastor Lorencin warns against letting the pastoral ordination be influenced by the Roman Catholic, unbiblical practice, which is rooted in the pagan Roman system of being promoted (Latin ordinatio) to a higher ‘order’ (Latin ordo) in the state offices. Any sense of the rite of ordination conveying a special status or character that is not already there through the gift of the Holy Spirit is unbiblical. Ordination is therefore a work of the Spirit and only recognised and confirmed by the church. Many of the points raised here have also been pointed out in the Seventh-day Adventist Encyclopedia, in the article on ‘ordination’ (1996).

TEDnews

Yes, the Sanctuary doctrine was the key to unlock our understanding of 1844. It is thus incorporated in the official doctrines of the SDA church:

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

The Sanctuary doctrine is a key which unlocks our understanding of the Gospel ministry to include both men and women, since Jesus Christ now is both our High Priest and Sacrifice, and therefore we need no Aronic priesthood to kill the lamb for us. We have direct access to him, and need not go through a priest.

[AVoiceInTheWilderness]

I am a third generation Seventh-day Adventist. None of us have ever joined a church which officially believes that women could not be ordained to the gospel ministry, nor do I belong to any such church today. Where in the fundamental beliefs of our church do you find such a statement?

Clearly, you have yet to truly understand the Sanctuary doctrine which is the foundation of the faith of Seventh-Day Adventists.

No true Adventist would speak the words which are coming out of your mouth.

It is interesting comparing your statement with a report from a recent conference for SDA pastors where members of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists were among the speakers. The part of the report given here below is a strong indication that the Sanctuary doctrine shows clearly why women can be ordained as gospel ministers:

If this is your belief and your assessment, then you and I are talking about two different doctrines on the Sanctuary.

I'm speaking of the doctrine concerning the Earthly & Heavenly Sanctuary which our Pioneers believed and taught. Which doctrine do you speak of? For none holding fast to our God given understanding of it would conclude as you and the men you follow have.

[Gregory]

There are women today in our church who have received ministerial licenses, . . . ..

Do you understand?

A ministerial license is given to someone who is on the track to ordination.  Yes, there may be some women who have such today. Those Conferences who have issued such are said to be in rebellion by those who oppose WO.

Most females are granted a Commissioned Minister License which does not lead to ordination.  It leads to a Commissioned Minister Credential.

[Battle Creek]

I am a third generation Seventh-day Adventist. None of us have ever joined a church which officially believes that women could not be ordained to the gospel ministry, nor do I belong to any such church today. Where in the fundamental beliefs of our church do you find such a statement?

Clearly, you have yet to truly understand the Sanctuary doctrine which is the foundation of the faith of Seventh-Day Adventists.

No true Adventist would speak the words which are coming out of your mouth.

It is interesting comparing your statement with a report from a recent conference for SDA pastors where members of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists were among the speakers. The part of the report given here below is a strong indication that the Sanctuary doctrine shows clearly why women can be ordained as gospel ministers:

If this is your belief and your assessment, then you and I are talking about two different doctrines on the Sanctuary.

I'm speaking of the doctrine concerning the Earthly & Heavenly Sanctuary which our Pioneers believed and taught. Which doctrine do you speak of? For none holding fast to our God given understanding of it would conclude as you and the men you follow have.

Do you need a new pair of reading glasses? Or are you afraid of reading? Are you afraid it would force you to pray for the courage it takes to be honest? I will admit it is a lot easier to follow the crowd - the great majority of world religions who are against the ordination of women, rather than forsake your pride and follow in the footsteps of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus has never told us to follow the majority. Who teaches you to do that?

[Dedication]

If this is your belief and your assessment, then you and I are talking about two different doctrines on the Sanctuary.
I'm speaking of the doctrine concerning the Earthly & Heavenly Sanctuary which our Pioneers believed and taught. Which doctrine do you speak of? For none holding fast to our God given understanding of it would conclude as you and the men you follow have.

What Battle Creek quoted is  what we as Seventh-day Adventists believe concerning the sanctuary.
The earthly sanctuary was a type of Christ's ministry (His death, resurrection and priestly ministry in heaven).
By His death Christ  caused the earthly sacrificial system with it's officiating priests, to cease.   Christ is our High Priest in heaven.   The earthly sanctuary priesthood has ceased.  We look to Christ as our priest, in the heavenly sanctuary.

A problem I see (and I've stated it several times now) is that people seem to think ministers are the same as  priests.  They are NOT. 

 Christ is our high Priest.  He is the head of the body, and we are all members of the body (both male and female).   We are to "submit one to another"  and not act like the heathen who lord it over others.  That whole idea of a heirachy of priests, comes from the Catholic system and their priestly heirarchy does stem back to paganism where the object was to bind all mankind in blind and absolute submission to a hierarchy of priests and through them make people entirely dependent on the sovereigns who more often than not claimed divinity.

 What is a minister  and what is a ministers role in the church?
The word "minister" is closely related to "servant".
A minister is to "serve"


Matt. 23:9   And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 
 23:10   Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 
 23:11   But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 
 23:12   And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 

Luke 22:24   And there was also a strife among them (the disciples), which of them should be accounted the greatest. 
 22:25   And he (Jesus) said to them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 
 22:26   But you are not to be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that does serve.

 
 

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

We are told that the Latter Rain will not fall unless this is done!

And this is another heresy...at no point are we told this is a foundation for the outpouring of the Latter Rain and Last Cry message.

I will suggest that until all these heretical liberal progressives are either revived back into the Faith or left behind as in purged from the pews by the Spirit of the Lord, leaving those that truly meet the very clear and simple standard required of the REMNANT...They keep the Commandments of the LORD and have the Testimony (or Character and Spirit) of Jesus. They have purged sin from their lives and have an immutable connection with the Lord, God. AND THEY ARE FEARLESS FOR THE LORD AND THE REMNANT MESSAGE!!! THESE ARE THOSE THAT RECEIVE THE LATTER RAIN and NONE OTHERS!!!

And thus the simple cry from the wilderness to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED in the SPIRIT.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

For years, we've been told by the pro-evolution, anti-SDA education, anti-Ellen White, pro-ecumenical, pro-evangelical factions within the SDA church that program X or program Y or program Z was the panacea for every ill in the church.
You know those programs: Cell-churches, Natural Church Development, Alpha Courses, Purpose-Driven plans, Willow Creek training etc etc etc!

When each of these is brought in we're told "This is it! This is all we need to finish the work and take the gospel to the whole world!"
But did anyone notice what was missing from those programs? Well, I DID!!! ---Women's Ordination


I don't recall seeing that THOSE programs that THEY brought in had as a finishing of the gospel work an absolute requirement for the ordaining of women.
And yet now we have cackling from all quarters of the pro-WO crowd that the work cannot go forward without it! We are told that the Latter Rain will not fall unless this is done!

So my question: Why did the pro-WO lie to us all these years about these programs? Why was it never NCD plus WO will be the formula to finish the work? Why was it never Seeker-sensitive services plus WO to finish the work? Why was it never "Let's go paint our poor neighbor's house on Sabbath plus enact WO"?

Why NOW is it a must when it never was before?

SDAminister

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

HERE, HERE, Dedication...we must raise the call ever more frequently to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

There is only one program that will work.

All the the others are just gimicks.

The only program that will work is when people seek the Lord in humble confession of sins, and earnest desire to serve Him.  Until God's people get serious about a total commitment to God and Savior, the latter rain will not fall, the light of the gospel will be hide under a lot of rubbish.

Personal, --whether women get ordained or not is not going to make that much difference, if there is no true commitment to Christ it's all nothing more than a bunch of policy and face changes in a lukewarm church, with people arguing over who has authority for whatever.

BUT if people get serious about a relationship with the Lord, and get down on their knees giving their lives over to HIM, willing to do His will -- then we will see the work move forward under the power of the Holy Spirit.