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[Artiste]

And I'm not speaking for myself right here...?

(Apparently women are only allowed to speak for themselves when they agree with PUC, CUC, and european men on WO.)

Not at all! We here-at least in the PUC-believe women should speak for themselves, have their own say, and be who and what they want to be. And I doubt anyone here would presume to speak for you. You speak for yourself.

Why thank you!

[Dedication]

I know one lady personally who was ordained as a local elder, was the Head Elder of one of our local churches, who told me recently that she no longer recognizes her ordination since believing that it is not biblical.   Perhaps I can ask her how she came to that conclusion.

It's not hard if one continually reads the AntiWO presentations.

However, I'm finding more and more holes in the AntiWO presentations.
Especially when one goes back to the original scripture before the "all male" interpretations squashed women's involvement.

For example the Biblical reference to Phebe:

Quoting from the KJV
Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea:
16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she has need of you: for she has been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Now do a little study on Paul's use of the word "diakonos".

In Paul's writings (in the KJV) the word is translated:

"diakonos" translated as:
minister 17 times
Rom. 13:4; 15:8; 1Cor 3:5; 2Cor 3:6; 6:4; 11:23; Gal. 2:17; 3:7; 6:21; Col 1:7,23,25; 4:7; 1 Thes 3:2; 1Tim. 4:6

deacon 3 times
Phil 1:1; 1Tim 3:8,12

and servant 2 times (and both in connection with Phebe)
Rom 16:1,27

Why did the translators switch from "minister" (or even deacon) to lower Phebe's status to "servant"?


But scripture is plain Phebe was a "diakonos" and she was a woman!

So all the arguments that the following text is proof positive that women can't be included because they aren't a husband of one wife is obviously false.

Let the deacons (diakonos) be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 1 Tim 3:12

[Dedication]

Another "hole" in the antiWO presentations is with 1 Tim. 3

Yes, it sounds so "final" in a lot of the bibles, till one realizes in the original it's different!

In verse 3:11 the word   "gyne" is the word for "women"  or "woman", though it is translated as "wife" in scripture quite a few times as well.  But notice the "their" is added  -- the possessive is missing in the original.   It's just talking about "women" not "their wives".
3:11   Even so [must their] wives "gyne" [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.  

If we do a literal translation it would read like this:  (from YLT)

3:8 Ministrants (diakonos)  in like manner to be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not given to filthy lucre,
3:9 having the secret of the faith in a pure conscience,
3:10 and let these also first be proved, then let them minister, being unblameable.
3:11 Women in like manner to be grave, not false accusers, vigilant, faithful in all things.
3:12 Ministrants (diakonos), let them be of one wife husbands;leading  the children well, and their own houses,
3:13 for those who did minister well a good step to themselves do acquire, and much boldness in faith that [is] in Christ Jesus.

Remember Phebe was a "diakonos" or Ministrant.
Since verse 11 does not have the possessive, it is not talking about the diakonos' wife, but a woman gyne diakonos.

[Artiste]

Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path.  Isaiah 3:12

The Pacific Union Conference is trying to move women into conference and union leadership position as soon as possible.

"Your guides lead you astray...?"

[Dedication]

Isaiah 3 is talking about all the mighty men of war being gone and only children and women left.
Read the verse in context.
It's not talking about depriving women of leadership rolls.


Isaiah 3...  behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah...The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, The captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator. ...When a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, [saying], Thou hast clothing, be thou our ruler, and [let] this ruin [be] under thy hand: ... my people, children [are] their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause [thee] to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. 

[Artiste]

Isaiah 3 is talking about all the mighty men of war being gone and only children and women left.

Read the verse in context.
It's not talking about depriving women of leadership rolls.

I don't think so...

[Dedication]

Were there actual women ruling in Isaiah's time?
No -- during Isaiah's time it was --
 Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz,  Hezekiah, kings of Judah.   There were no women rulers. 
It was the next king that REALLY lead Judah down the wrong path (and killed Isaiah) and he was a man.
Manasseh 697-642
Amon 642-640
Josiah 640-609
Jehoahaz 609-608
Jehoiakim/Eliakim 608-597
Jehoiachin 597
Zedekiah
All men  -- all men after Isaiah except for Josiah,  were they which lead and caused [Judea] to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. 
It was they that caused all the mighty men to perish and left Judah in desolation.  Just like Isaiah prophecied, the royal princes were taken off to babylon, many of the mighty men taken away or killed, and the city left without strong rulership.   Zedekiah was a weak kneed indecisive ruler, who begged Jeremiah the prophet SECRETLY for help but openly went the wrong way, till Jerusalem was destroyed.
 
 

[AVoiceInTheWilderness]

It is threads like these which clearly reveal who is truly in power on this forum.

And it is not those whom one might think.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Vox Clamantis In Deserto - a voice in the wilderness. Great pseudonym. I will be listening to the  voice and must assume you will live up to your name-sake.

I notice there are missing "voices" from this love-fest thread. The civility is astounding. My guess is this a welcome change. Relax, I will not alter this tranquility.

In any event, Voice, welcome aboard and I will be listening!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[AVoiceInTheWilderness]

Vox Clamantis In Deserto - a voice in the wilderness. Great pseudonym. I will be listening to the  voice and must assume you will live up to your name-sake.

I notice there are missing "voices" from this love-fest thread. The civility is astounding. My guess is this a welcome change. Relax, I will not alter this tranquility.

In any event, Voice, welcome aboard and I will be listening!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

Greetings friend!

I hope you had a blessed Sabbath.

Unfortunately, you are correct. The voices are missing. The few which can be heard are being drowned out by the remnant shouting 'Give us Barabbas'.

We need Elijah to come on the scene. 

[Dedication]

"Elijah" is not going to come down from heaven to straighten everyone out.
The coming of Elijah was fulfilled in the prophet John the Baptist prior to Jesus first coming, and by Ellen White prior to His second coming.   However, few listen to EGW any more.

When in my youth God opened the Scriptures to my mind, giving me light upon the truths of his word, I went forth to proclaim to others the precious news of salvation. My brother wrote to me, and said, "I beg of you do not disgrace the family. I will do anything for you if you will not go out as a preacher." "Disgrace the family!" I replied, "can it disgrace the family for me to preach Christ and him crucified! If you would give me all the gold your house could hold, I would not cease giving my testimony for God. I have respect unto the recompense of the reward. I will not keep silent, for when God imparts his light to me, he means that I shall diffuse it to others, according to my ability."  {ST, June 24, 1889 par. 9}

 

[AVoiceInTheWilderness]

"Elijah" is not going to come down from heaven to straighten everyone out.
The coming of Elijah was fulfilled in the prophet John the Baptist prior to Jesus first coming, and by Ellen White prior to His second coming.   However, few listen to EGW any more.

Friend, it appears you need to do a thorough study on the 144,000.

The final Elijah has not yet come.

[Artiste]

I agree that the final Elijah has not come.

[Murcielago]

Perhaps a thread on Elijah's second advent could be started elsewhere.