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[Johann]

Though it may be true that the Muslims and the papal church served the same god.  There is speculation that the papal church nurtured Mohammad into his position as spiritual leader of the Arabs in their hopes to destroy the Syrian Christian churches that were not lining up with papal policies.   But then the "project" took on a life of it's own and  "backfired". 
 

Somewhere in a box in the garage I still have this book The Keys Of The Kingdom, if I remember the title. You may have read it, written by a Jesuit outlining the plans of the pope for world dominion. He analyses what approaches the pope plans to use on various churches and religions to get them all together. What struck me was that the pope will have much less problems with the Muslims than with Seventh-day Adventists. There seemed to be more similarities between the Roman Catholic Church and the Muslims than with SDA. Therefore it would be easier for the pope to come to an agreement with the Muslims.

It also struck me that the greatest problems of the pope with SDA did not seem to be neither the Sabbath nor that SDA regard him as Antichrist, but the fact that SDA give each person the freedom of choice if they want to be saved or not.  This points to the Catholic doctrine that politicians and the military/police will eventually force the whole earth into one camp where no one escapes salvation. That, according to Catholic doctrine, is the Second Coming of Christ, not in the flesh, but in his church on earth.

[Gregory]

I attended the 2010 GEneral Conference in Atlanta.  I purchased a couple of books written by a SDA who has an evangellistic ministry focused on Islamics in Islamic countries.  In those books he presents the basic concepts of Christianity based upon the Quran.  HIs thesis was that embeded in the Quran are basic Christian teachings.

I do not have thos bookd immediately available to me at this time.  So, I cannot give you either his name or the title of the books.   But, I will suggest that we need to be very careful as to how we describe Islam if our knowledge dependsentirely upon what others have saidabout it and we have not read anything written by Islamics.   This would be the same as someone gaining their knowledge of the SDA Church by reading Canright and not reading SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE . . .

The Quran is not an easy book to understand.  In my reading of it, I would often find that after reading the commentary I had not fully understood the text that I had just read. 

[Johann]

I attended the 2010 GEneral Conference in Atlanta.  I purchased a couple of books written by a SDA who has an evangellistic ministry focused on Islamics in Islamic countries.  In those books he presents the basic concepts of Christianity based upon the Quran.  HIs thesis was that embeded in the Quran are basic Christian teachings.

I do not have thos bookd immediately available to me at this time.  So, I cannot give you either his name or the title of the books.   But, I will suggest that we need to be very careful as to how we describe Islam if our knowledge dependsentirely upon what others have saidabout it and we have not read anything written by Islamics.   This would be the same as someone gaining their knowledge of the SDA Church by reading Canright and not reading SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE . . .

The Quran is not an easy book to understand.  In my reading of it, I would often find that after reading the commentary I had not fully understood the text that I had just read. 

Since you do not recall the name of the author not the titles, I cannot verify this, but I have a notion I have read reviews of those books, both pro and con. There are specialists among us who regard those ideas as very dangerous because they give a wrong impression of our own religion. But the ideas were, for a while, accepted by certain GC officials. I have no verification, but I just wonder if these books might be one of the reasons some have "preached" that Allah is also our God?

This is just a question, not a statement of opinion, but a question I feel needs to be examined in order to form an opinion. One of the reasons  why it is healthy to have a forum where we can formulate questions, and even express our different opinions.

[Gregory]

The Protestant, Christian world is divided into three (3) groups as to how to work with Islamics.  These three approaches differ considerably.  On some aspects there is condomation of an approach that is used by others.

The approach that is most widely condemed is an approach that maintains much of the Islamic ritual.

The ministry author and his books, did not get into that aspect.  IOW he was not discussing Islamic ritual.  In what he had at the General Conference, he did not get into issues of life and practice.

His books were focused on the idea that embeded, perhaps deeply, in the Quran were deeply Christian teachings.  Arabic was his native language, as I recall.  He probably knew the Quran from beginning to end.  In his books would take a fundamentally Christian teaching and build a verse by verse case for showing that the Christin teaching was enbeded in the Quran.

Of course, there was much that he could not prove.

His idea was that once Islamics became convinced that the Quran taught this basic Christian teaching he would be able to lead them into greter understanding and acceptance of Christianity and accpetance of Christ as a Savior.

[Johann]

No matter which method is used it is extremely difficult to lead Muslims to Christ. I have, however, baptized some Muslims in Africa, but they were mostly young students attending our schools, and they lived in areas that were not dominated by Muslims.

I have also read the Quran in an English translation. I got the impression where I was that the real Muslims will only read it in the original language, and they claimed that it is not as valid in any other language. Muslim schools for boys were taught Arabic. I do not recall any Muslim school for girls then and there. The attitude seemed to be, Why waste money on schools for girls? Since they are inferior to the boys they can learn all they need to know from their mothers.

[Gregory]

Islamics claim that the Quran is that actual "word of God" as  given in Arabic.  Therefore, to read the "word of God" one must read Arabic.

As most living people do not read Arabic and to increase knowledge about Islam, the Quran is translated into other languages.  Official translations are prepared by Islamic scholars to attempt to be as accurate as posssible.  Those who wish to learn about Islam should be careful to read approved translations.  E.G.  In the United States, the most common English translation is prepared by an  Islamic group of scholars in Saudi Arabia.  I can not speak for other languages.

But, these translations are not considered to be the "word of Allah" as that exists only in Arabic.

[Johann]

It is interesting in this connection that some Christians only accept a translation, the KJV, as the word of God. Is that because that translation makes it easier for them to hold on to the Catholic tradition of ordination?

[Daryl Fawcett]

If this turns into a discussion on ordination, it may need to be moved.

[Artiste]

I thought we weren't going to be turning other topics into WO discussions anymore.

[Daryl Fawcett]

It is actually against the rules to take the thread completely off topic, therefore, let us not post anything further in response to the last sentence in Johann's post and get back on topic.

[Artiste]

OK.

[Dedication]

Though it may be true that the Muslims and the papal church served the same god.  There is speculation that the papal church nurtured Mohammad into his position as spiritual leader of the Arabs in their hopes to destroy the Syrian Christian churches that were not lining up with papal policies.   But then the "project" took on a life of it's own and  "backfired". 
 

Somewhere in a box in the garage I still have this book The Keys Of The Kingdom, if I remember the title. You may have read it, written by a Jesuit outlining the plans of the pope for world dominion. He analyses what approaches the pope plans to use on various churches and religions to get them all together. What struck me was that the pope will have much less problems with the Muslims than with Seventh-day Adventists. There seemed to be more similarities between the Roman Catholic Church and the Muslims than with SDA. Therefore it would be easier for the pope to come to an agreement with the Muslims.

It also struck me that the greatest problems of the pope with SDA did not seem to be neither the Sabbath nor that SDA regard him as Antichrist, but the fact that SDA give each person the freedom of choice if they want to be saved or not.  This points to the Catholic doctrine that politicians and the military/police will eventually force the whole earth into one camp where no one escapes salvation. That, according to Catholic doctrine, is the Second Coming of Christ, not in the flesh, but in his church on earth.

I believe you are refering to "The Keys of This Blood" by Malachi Martin.

Indeed he wrote of the papal view of islam in the Globalist battle:

"In reckoning the future of Islam, Pope John Paul takes into account that as a genuinely religious faith, it preserves certain fundamental truths that the Holy Spirit reveals to all people of good will; and that, in God's providence, Islam can be a threshold from which its adherents can be prepared to accept the only historical revelation made by God in this world.   There will come a day, John Paul believes, when the heart of Islam--already attuned to the figures of Christ and of Christ's Mother, Mary -- will receive the illumination it needs."  Page 285


Of Seventh-day Adventists he writes:

"Among the Christian Minimalists, the opposition is virulent and has a long history.  Despite the mutual differences, for instance, between the Advent Christian Church, the Church of God of Abrahamic Faith, and the Seventh-Day Adventists, thery are at one in the opposition to Rome as the "Red Whore of the Mediterranean"  Given their separate and separatist perspectives on the world, in one sense they are uneasy allies at best....their origins unite them in a particular point of view concerning Pope John Paul.  They all arose within the context of rebellion against the authority and privileged teaching power of the Roman Church.   pag 286

I have another book:
"Queen of Rome and Queen of Islam, Queen of All"
by Jim Tetlow, Roger Oakland, Brad Myers

and they show how the Muslims are already in tune with Christ and "Christ's Mother".

In the Koran (and those who have read it from cover to cover can verify) Jesus is almost exclusively referred to as "Jesus son of Mary".  Never as "Son of God".
Yet the Koran holds both Jesus and Mary in high esteem.  Jesus as a "prophet"  and Mary" the greatest of all women."

The book documents how muslims have been flocking to see Apparitions claiming to be "Mary".
It's thesis is that spiritualism (through signs and wonders connected with the Apparition claiming to be Mary) will unite the religions.  The "mother/child" goddess seems to transend all religions, thus striking a note of unity that can be merged with "signs and wonders" to bring the world into unity  .

The late Archbishop Fulton Sheen is quoted as saying:

"It is our firm belief that the fears some entertain concerning the Moslems are not to be realized, but that Islam instead, will eventually be converted to Christianity -- and in a way that even some of our missionaries never suspect.   it is our belief that this will happen not through the direct teaching of Christianity but through a summoning of the moslems to a veneration of the mother of God. [The World's First Love--Mary, Mother of God, p. 204 as quoted on page 35 in "Queen of Rome and Queen of islam, Queen of All"]

[Gregory]

In the Koran (and those who have read it from cover to cover can verify) Jesus is almost exclusively referred to as "Jesus son of Mary".  Never as "Son of God".
Yet the Koran holds both Jesus and Mary in high esteem.  Jesus as a "prophet"  and Mary" the greatest of all women."

Correct.

[Gregory]

It should be clear beyond doubt that Johann does reference THE KEYS OF THE BLOOD.  The context tells us that.

However, as a point of interest, THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM is the title of at least six (6) books, a Holywood movie, a music CD, and much more.   

[Johann]

It should be clear beyond doubt that Johann does reference THE KEYS OF THE BLOOD.  The context tells us that.

However, as a point of interest, THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM is the title of at least six (6) books, a Holywood movie, a music CD, and much more.   

You are correct. About ten years ago I gave most of my library to the union ministerial secretary in case some of the younger ministers would like to have some. Most of those I wanted to keep went into boxes and have remained there since. One of these days I have to give them to our local library. Used books these days are hardly worth a dime a piece, probably because most information is available on the Internet.