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[Daryl Fawcett]

Pacific Union Conference Approves Fourteen Women for Ordination as stated in the following link:

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2012/09/07/pacific-union-conference-approves-fourteen-women-ordination

[Johann]

If I understand it right, at least most of these women will not be ordained now. They have already been ordained as commissioned ministers. Now they just receive a new card stating they are "ordained" ministers.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I understand their new card won't be recognized by the GC, which means it doesn't really have much clout.

If I understand it right, at least most of these women will not be ordained now. They have already been ordained as commissioned ministers. Now they just receive a new card stating they are "ordained" ministers.

[Bob Pickle]

I still want to know who lied regarding PUC not going forward because their bylaws weren't changed.

I also want to know why PUC is violating their bylaws.

And why the rush to ordain women on October 6, which is probably prior to Autumn Council? Here the GC Exec. Comm. is going to meet to discuss what is going on, and PUC is just rushing on ahead. It's sickening.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I still want to know who lied regarding PUC not going forward because their bylaws weren't changed.

I also want to know why PUC is violating their bylaws.

And why the rush to ordain women on October 6, which is probably prior to Autumn Council? Here the GC Exec. Comm. is going to meet to discuss what is going on, and PUC is just rushing on ahead. It's sickening.

I agree and am also surprised that they would push ahead and knowingly approve something contrary to their own bylaws as well as the policy of the GC.

They are not only in rebellion with the GC, but are also in rebellion with their own constituency who's delegates voted down (65% of the required 66%) the proposed bylaws amendment.

[Johann]

I understand their new card won't be recognized by the GC, which means it doesn't really have much clout.

If I understand it right, at least most of these women will not be ordained now. They have already been ordained as commissioned ministers. Now they just receive a new card stating they are "ordained" ministers.

There could be similarities. The ordination card of Doug Batchelor does not grant him access to a number of SDA churches where his ministry is not recognized today.

I am not defending the actions of the PUC in this case, just reporting.

[Murcielago]

I still want to know who lied regarding PUC not going forward because their bylaws weren't changed.

I also want to know why PUC is violating their bylaws.

And why the rush to ordain women on October 6, which is probably prior to Autumn Council? Here the GC Exec. Comm. is going to meet to discuss what is going on, and PUC is just rushing on ahead. It's sickening.

I agree and am also surprised that they would push ahead and knowingly approve something contrary to their own bylaws as well as the policy of the GC.

They are not only in rebellion with the GC, but are also in rebellion with their own constituency who's delegates voted down (65% of the required 66%) the proposed bylaws amendment.

Yet 79% voted to approve ordination of women. Again, I am interested in hearing about the Freudian side to this issue. Bob, Daryl, SDA Minister, there is a valid question on whether there is truly a Freudian issue here, and what those who may have Freudian issues with women have to say about the supposition that they do, and that their opposition to women may be based on a fear or loathing of women. Would any of you be able, or willing to answer this question?

I am also still interested in knowing your source for the outright lie you mentioned in your false statement that Loma Linda University Church Wants to split away from the denomination. Would you care to provide the source of that falsehood?

[Johann]

I had to share this story:

Lara Beaven
Many years ago I was a daily newspaper reporter in a semi-rural part of Ohio that had many churches, including several pastored by women, something that struck one of my editors as fascinating given the area's traditional/conservative nature. I was assigned to profile a couple of them. It was one of my favorite assignments. The pastor of the non-denominational church was quick to explain/refute the headship arguments against women pastors and the United Methodist minister shared the following story. One week the pastor invited a guest preacher to her pulpit. If I remember correctly, it was someone akin to an Adventist conference president. After the service, the woman pastor and the guest preacher were greeting parishioners. A little girl of about six came up to the female pastor and said with amazement, "I didn't know men could be preachers too!"

[SDAminister]

I had to share this story:

Lara Beaven
Many years ago I was a daily newspaper reporter in a semi-rural part of Ohio that had many churches, including several pastored by women, something that struck one of my editors as fascinating given the area's traditional/conservative nature. I was assigned to profile a couple of them. It was one of my favorite assignments. The pastor of the non-denominational church was quick to explain/refute the headship arguments against women pastors and the United Methodist minister shared the following story. One week the pastor invited a guest preacher to her pulpit. If I remember correctly, it was someone akin to an Adventist conference president. After the service, the woman pastor and the guest preacher were greeting parishioners. A little girl of about six came up to the female pastor and said with amazement, "I didn't know men could be preachers too!"

Johann,
Interesting that the story is about United Methodists, a denomination racing to irrelevance. With an indistinct message and an unbiblical push for "women's rights", it's no wonder they're losing thousands and thousands of members each year. Who would want to emulate that?
 http://m.christianpost.com/news/united-methodist-church-continues-to-decline-in-america-but-gains-in-africa--79384/

[Bob Pickle]

I am also still interested in knowing your source for the outright lie you mentioned in your false statement that Loma Linda University Church Wants to split away from the denomination. Would you care to provide the source of that falsehood?

It isn't an outright lie.

Spectrum is the source. Spectrum reported that the LLU Church is moving ahead now and will be ordaining women as gospel ministers on October 6. To me, that's trying to split off from the church.

Numbers 16:2  And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly <05712>, famous in the congregation, men of renown:

Numbers 16:3  And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation <05712> are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?

Numbers 16:5  And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company <05712>, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Numbers 16:6  This do; Take you censers, Korah, and all his company <05712>;

Numbers 16:9  Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation <05712> of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation <05712> to minister unto them?

Numbers 16:11  For which cause both thou and all thy company <05712> are gathered together against the LORD: and what is Aaron, that ye murmur against him?

Numbers 16:16  And Moses said unto Korah, Be thou and all thy company <05712> before the LORD, thou, and they, and Aaron, to morrow:

Numbers 16:19  And Korah gathered all the congregation <05712> against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the congregation <05712>.

Numbers 16:21  Separate yourselves from among this congregation <05712>, that I may consume them in a moment.

Numbers 16:22  And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation <05712>?

Numbers 16:24  Speak unto the congregation <05712>, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

Numbers 16:26  And he spake unto the congregation <05712>, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.

Numbers 16:40  To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company <05712>: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.

Interestingly, the LXX uses the Greek word sunagoge, "synagogue," for the Hebrew word 05712 in these verses.

One might argue that Korah was not trying to split off of Israel, was not trying to start a new church or organization, but that he was just trying to change the leadership of the existing organization. But Moses' choice of words suggests that he indeed was trying to establish his own "synagogue" in competition with the "synagogue" that God had established.

Similarly, Spectrum reports that the LLU Church is gearing up to thumb its nose at gospel order and the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes. To me that says that the LLU Church wants to be an independent ministry.

[Gregory]

I am also still interested in knowing your source for the outright lie you mentioned in your false statement that Loma Linda University Church Wants to split away from the denomination. Would you care to provide the source of that falsehood?

Murcielago,  You need to understand Bob.  He makes a lot of statements that go beyond what can be documented.  I do not know that I would call him a liar as I consider a liar to be someone who intends to decieve.  As I beleive that he believes that what he states is truth, I do not think the word "liar" fits.  But there does seem to be patterns in what he says.

He makes statements that sound to reasonable peopole to be stating X.  When challenged (questioned) he retreats, suggests that he has been misunderstood and that there are other things tha he might have said.  At times the end result is that no one really knows what Bob said. One example of this type of a statement is the statements that he has made about a major payment to the IRS.  The current situation is that at this point in time no one really knows whether Bob has stated that the payment was a million dollars, or some other amount.  No one really knows if Bob stated that 3-ABN made the payment, or if some other person made the payment for 3-ABN, or if some other person made the payment for something that they did, for which the IRS charged them.

Bob also strings together isolated statements/events and puts them together in a manner that he builds a so-called "strawman" that he can then destroy.  Just look at his response to your challenge to his comment about the Loma Linda church.  He cites verses from the Biblical book of Numbers and comments on the Greek in the LXX.  From there, apparently based upon his use of the Greek in the LXX he comments on the choice of words that Moses used.  One major error is that Moses probably did not know Greek.  The Biblical books that Moses wrote were written in Hebrew. 

Bob has clearly done this with me,  in his comments to the effect that I advocate rebellion.    I have not spent a lot of time challenging him on his misrepresentation of my position because I do not believe that it is worth my time to debate with someone who misrepresents to the extent that he does, even though he probably believes what he is saying.

I wll also note here that Bob has done the same in comments that he has made about Danny Shelton and 3-ABN.  This is just something that Bob does.  Yes, ~Cindy   ,  you can quote me on your web site if you wish.  Yes, there is some truth in what Bob has said.  Yes,  Bob has pointed out some questionable (wrong, inappropriate) that have been done by Danny and 3-ABN.  I do not argue that.  But, reasonable people who are fair and objective cannot agree that 3-ABN and  Danny Shelton have done everything that Bob seems to have claimed.  Of course, it may be that Bob has claimed nothing badabout 3-ABN & Danny and everyone is mistaken as to what he has actually claimed about them.  As I have said, it can be hard to know what Bob has actually said.

So, Murcielago do not pay much attention to what Bob has said about the Loma Linda University Church.  It is not worth your time.  Reasonable people will take Bob's statement with a grain of salt  People who are not rasonable will not agree with your response to Bob. Just let Bob continue to tell the story as he sees it.

NOTE:  On a personal note to ~Cindy:  Recently a proposed post of mine was not allowed to be posted on 3atalk due to the fact that it was considered "off topic."   Actually, my proposed post was dead center to the topic.  However, since the person who rejected it did not understand that it was very much on topic, it just might have been that no one else would have understood it as being on topic.  So, if no one else would have understood it, perhaps it should have been rejected.

Why am I posting a personal message in a public post?  I have talked about Bob in this post.  Actually all of us can be misunderstood, to include me.  I was not clear in that proposed post.


 

[Bob Pickle]

At times the end result is that no one really knows what Bob said. One example of this type of a statement is the statements that he has made about a major payment to the IRS.  The current situation is that at this point in time no one really knows whether Bob has stated that the payment was a million dollars, or some other amount.  No one really knows if Bob stated that 3-ABN made the payment, or if some other person made the payment for 3-ABN, or if some other person made the payment for something that they did, for which the IRS charged them.

I am fairly certain that all I have ever said is that the IRS was paid over $1 million. To the best of my recollection, I have purposely never stated the exact amount our sources stated, and I have never said who paid the IRS because I do not know. Thus, when someone changes the amount from over $1 million to $1 million, and states that I said that 3ABN paid the IRS, it is not out of line for me to correct the misperceptions.

Just look at his response to your challenge to his comment about the Loma Linda church.  He cites verses from the Biblical book of Numbers and comments on the Greek in the LXX.  From there, apparently based upon his use of the Greek in the LXX he comments on the choice of words that Moses used.  One major error is that Moses probably did not know Greek.  The Biblical books that Moses wrote were written in Hebrew.

One major error that you, Gregory Matthews, have made in this statement is that the Hebrew word used for God's "congregation" and the "company" of Korah is the same, which I made clear in my statement above. I referred to "synagogue" because of the two words, the Greek word is more readily recognizable to the average reader than the Hebrew word.

I have not spent a lot of time challenging him on his misrepresentation of my position because I do not believe that it is worth my time to debate with someone who misrepresents to the extent that he does, even though he probably believes what he is saying.

What misrepresentation? If you oppose rebellion, just say that you oppose any union or conference or church moving forward with the ordination of women prior to a GC Session vote authorizing the same. Thus far I do not recall you making any such statement, but I do recall you making the statement that the unions presently have a right to ordain anyone, and that would be despite the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes.

But, reasonable people who are fair and objective cannot agree that 3-ABN and  Danny Shelton have done everything that Bob seems to have claimed.

Like?

[Bob Pickle]

So, Murcielago do not pay much attention to what Bob has said about the Loma Linda University Church.

Here we have a major Adventist church moving independently from GC Sessions, which is the highest authority on earth under God within the church, and you say to pay no attention to comments about that independent movement constituting a split?

[Bob Pickle]

I still want to know who lied regarding PUC not going forward because their bylaws weren't changed.

I also want to know why PUC is violating their bylaws.

And why the rush to ordain women on October 6, which is probably prior to Autumn Council? Here the GC Exec. Comm. is going to meet to discuss what is going on, and PUC is just rushing on ahead. It's sickening.

Any answers?

[Gregory]

Bob said:

One major error that you, Gregory Matthews, have made in this statement is that the Hebrew word used for God's "congregation" and the "company" of Korah is the same, which I made clear in my statement above. I referred to "synagogue" because of the two words, the Greek word is more readily recognizable to the average reader than the Hebrew word.

Bob, I did not expect you  to come back with such a perfect example of what I was saying.  I never stated that the Hebrew words were the same.  I do not believe that they are.  But, I did not check and I did not want to pound on you for another error, especially when I did not want to take the time to check it out.

Any way, thanks for such a good example of how you can misrepresent what people say.  I could not have come up with a better example.

AS you seem to be uncertain as to what I said, here is some of what I said.

1) I suggested that you probably do not know Greek.  If I am wrong and you are actually fluent in Greek, tell us so.

2) I said that Moses probably did not know Greek.  Comonsense.  The Greek of the Bible dates from the time of Christ.  Moses did not live in that period of time.  If you want to tell us that there was a form of Greek that existed in the time of Moses of which Moses would have been knowledgeable, please tell us why this is not evident in the writings of Moses.

3)  I referenced the Greek of the LXX.  Bob, you know that the LXX was written in Greek.  You surely cannot be telling me that I am wrong on that.  By the way, it was you who referenced the LXX.