Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Gregory]

I note that Johann is now a "guest!" 

[Daryl Fawcett]

I always understood a myth to be something like fiction.

[Gregory]

I always understood a myth to be something like fiction.

That is the common understanding.

In sociology the word "myth" does not imply either truth of fiction.  Rather it references something that is of value to that culture which may be either true or false.  Then there are those who believe that they contain both fiction and truth. So, yes, that myth can be fiction.  But, it can also be true.  Or, it can contain a mixture of truth and error.

A leading example of such that exists in most societies are the "creation myths."  Those are generally of major value in their cultures.  Some people accept them as true and some as false.  But, in calling they a creation myth, there is no implication of either fiction or oftruth.

In SDA Culture, those who oppose ordination for women may feel a need to explain why EGW was given the credentials of an ordained  minister, for years.  The records are clear.  She was given these credentials for years.  But, there is no clear documentation as to why, just as there is generally no clear documentation as  to why anybody was given such documentation.

So, people have come up with stories (myths) that have taken on a life of thier own as to why she was  given such credentials.  One such myth is that people wanted to pay her the same as an ordained minister (probably true) and there was no way to do that other than to give her the credentials of an ordained minsiter (probably false).

That myth defies common sense in the later part.  The church could have taken a vote to establish a seperate catagory of pay for EGW which was equal to that of an ordained minister.

[Gregory]

Credentials of whatever sort are  not issued without any kind of a record.

Yes, some kind of record.

And the records support, today, that a local conference recommended/ and/or granted credentials.  YOu do not find records that say:  Credentials were granted to X because he baptized 21 peopole and exceeded his Ingathering goal by 10% during the past year.

Records are sparse for the early days of ourdenomination.  It was not thought important to have such.  The Lord was comming and historical paperwork was not needed.  So, we simply have records that credentials were granted and even those are likely incomplete.

[Bob Pickle]

When someone uses the word "myth," it implies to most readers that the story isn't really true.

[Daryl Fawcett]

When someone uses the word "myth," it implies to most readers that the story isn't really true.

Which is why I feel we shouldn't use words with such a common meaning.  I am sure there must be better words out there that can be used instead of the word "myth".

[Murcielago]

In any case, it is no myth that Ellen White was a fully credentialed and ordained pastor recognized as such by the SDA denomination. I have copies of 3 of her ordination certificates, and they are not myths.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.

Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?

[Battle Creek]

I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.

Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?

Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?

In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.

If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.

[christined]

I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.

Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?

Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?

In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.

If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.

I like your reasonng, Battle Creek.

[SDAminister]

I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.

Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?

Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?

In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.

If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.

In our church, we often refer to one another as brother and sister because we all belong to the redeemed family of God. Paul and others called fellow believers "brothers" but they weren't all pastors. We should stick with the Bible usages.

Question: When was she first referred to as Sister White?

[Battle Creek]

I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.

Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?

Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?

In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.

If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.

In our church, we often refer to one another as brother and sister because we all belong to the redeemed family of God. Paul and others called fellow believers "brothers" but they weren't all pastors. We should stick with the Bible usages.

Question: When was she first referred to as Sister White?

So good to know that you want to stick with Bible usage. Stick to that and we should come to a reasonable conclusion.

"When was she first referred to as Sister White?" Why do you ask? What difference would that make?

In your preparation for becoming a SDA minister you must have made a thorough study of Spiritual Gifts. Scattered through those volumes you will find some clues, but I have no recollection of a statement anywhere which states: This is the first time Ellen White was called Sister White.

Also as a SDA minister you will have a keen interest in the development of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. You will recall that Otis Nichols was one of the first persons who accepted the preaching of Joseph Bates on the Sabbath question. Ellen spent considerable time in the Nichols home, and he witnessed some of her visions.

From your basic training to become a minister you will also recall that in the vaults of the E G White Estate is a handwritten manuscript by Otis where he outlines the history and Ellen's travels as a preacher in connection with her first visions. Consistently through his account he refers to Sister White and Brother White, at times abbreviated as Sr. and Bro. It is remarkable that even when he gives an account of her visions while she was still this young girl, Ellen Gould Harmon, he would give her present name as Sister White. When Otis gives this account around 1859, James White was definitely regarded as a, if not the leading minister of our church, yet he calls him nothing but Brother in this manuscript. This is also what we find in the minutes of the GC sessions of that time.

This seems to be the language used within the church. That did not prevent some of them from using the title of Elder when writing a book, etc. 

[SDAminister]

I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.

Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?

Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?

In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.

If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.

In our church, we often refer to one another as brother and sister because we all belong to the redeemed family of God. Paul and others called fellow believers "brothers" but they weren't all pastors. We should stick with the Bible usages.

Question: When was she first referred to as Sister White?

So good to know that you want to stick with Bible usage. Stick to that and we should come to a reasonable conclusion.

"When was she first referred to as Sister White?" Why do you ask? What difference would that make?

Well, you say she was referred to as Sister because she was ordained as a minister of the gospel, no? Was she called Sister before this "ordination" took place that you refer to?

[Battle Creek]

The original question by Daryl Fawset was if Ellen White was ever called Elder or Pastor. The answer to that is NO, but neither were those titles used within the church for several years for ordained ministers. Therefore the missing title of Elder or Pastor for Ellen White is no proof of the status of Ellen White. We only have the cards which show that she had the status as an ordained minister.

[Daryl Fawcett]

You mean they still were not using the words pastor and elder to identify our ministers even as late as the early 1900s?