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[SDAminister]

I was addressing  the issue of
a paid full time ministry.

People who feel called of God to give their full time to the ministry should have a fully recognized ministry to commit themselves too.

If everyone holding an office in the local church is paid it would defeat the purpose.
For example -- every year I put in a huge amont of time putting on a VBS program.   But I've never even thought of getting paid for it.  I'm just happy that the church has a budget to pay for most of the expenses for the program.

Same with the Sabbath School work.  It never ever occured to me to ask for pay.

I have a job outside of the church to earn money, as do most of the church members that aren't retired, and we don't fulfill our church offices for money, we do our church office work for free.   Though I think the treasurer gets a small stipend.

Now I suppose, if a church has no pastor and the elder is doing the work of the pastor there may very well be a case where payment is due.

Yet, I was thinking more of women who feel God calling them to ministry to have a recognized vocation available, just as men who feel called to full time  ministry have a recognized vocation available.

 

Nor do I think everyone should be paid.

And yet Paul says that certain elders should be remunerated in some form. Are you familiar with this text?

I think you are getting closer to the idea when there are churches without pastors and elders lead out. Of course, this is the way it should be. Pastors aren't meant to stay in a church after it is raised up and self sufficient.

[Bob Pickle]

Or rather, the local elders should generally be the ones who are serving as the pastors, and the ministers who we commonly call "pastors" should be out evangelizing, pastoring the interests and new members, preparing them to stand on their own.

[Murcielago]

Or rather, the local elders should generally be the ones who are serving as the pastors, and the ministers who we commonly call "pastors" should be out evangelizing, pastoring the interests and new members, preparing them to stand on their own.

Exactly.

[Dedication]

Back to trying to make sense of all the arguments.

Bishop --  epískopos, "overseer",
1 Tim. 3:1-2, 4:22, Titus 1:7, 3:15

is not really the same as

presbýteros -- 
among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies or individual churches

In the Jewish system there were the "presbyteros" and the "chief priests".  The "chief priests" being of more authority than the "presbyteros".   (Mark 8:31, 14:53 etc)

A bishop seems to claim authority dating back to the apostles-- an overseer of the churches.
Whereas the "presbyteros" is regarded more as the "pastor" of the assembly or local church.

A bishop is the one ordained deacon, then pastor and then bishop who is understood to hold the fullness of the (ministerial) or apostalic authority, given Biblical responsibility to govern, teach and sanctify the Body of Christ. Pastors, deacons, and lay ministers (what we now term "elders") cooperate with the bishop who oversees all the assemblies under his authority.

The Adventist church doesn't use the term "Bishop".
It really doesn't acknowledge anyone as having the "apostle" position

From the writings dating from the first centuries of Christian Church  all the chief centres of Christianity recognized and had the office of bishop, which was distinct from the local "pastors who took care of the churches.

[Gregory]

What is the difference between episkopos and presbuteros, especially in regard to their roles, and what is their relationship to the diakonos? There are three places in scripture we need to consult for the answers to these questions.

The first passage is Acts 20:17–28. In that passage, the Apostle Paul is nearing the end of his ministry, when he gives a final word of exhortation to the church in Ephesus. He begins in verse 17 by addressing the presbuteros (elders) of the church, yet a few verses later in the passage, Paul refers to these same men in verse 28 as episkopos, or overseers. By describing the same group one time as presbuteros and a second time as episkopos, Paul seems to consider the two words to be synonyms for church leaders.

The second passage of scripture to consider is Titus 1. In verse 5, Paul reminds TItus that he left him in Crete with instructions to appoint presbuteros (i.e., elders) over every city. In this context, an elder is clearly a position of leadership over a church, yet just a few verses later Paul begins to describes the qualifications for an elder using the word episkopos (i.e., overseer) to describe this same group. Once again, Paul seems to use these two words for leader interchangeably.

It seems fair to conclude from these two passages that scripture makes no clear distinction between a prebuteros (elder) and an episkopos (overseer) in terms of their role in leadership. Therefore, we should consider these two terms to refer generally to leaders over a church, whether they serve as a pastor, an elder or both.

[Dedication]

What is the difference between episkopos and presbuteros, especially in regard to their roles, and what is their relationship to the diakonos? There are three places in scripture we need to consult for the answers to these questions.

The first passage is Acts 20:17–28. In that passage, the Apostle Paul is nearing the end of his ministry, when he gives a final word of exhortation to the church in Ephesus. He begins in verse 17 by addressing the presbuteros (elders) of the church, yet a few verses later in the passage, Paul refers to these same men in verse 28 as episkopos, or overseers. By describing the same group one time as presbuteros and a second time as episkopos, Paul seems to consider the two words to be synonyms for church leaders.

The second passage of scripture to consider is Titus 1. In verse 5, Paul reminds TItus that he left him in Crete with instructions to appoint presbuteros (i.e., elders) over every city. In this context, an elder is clearly a position of leadership over a church, yet just a few verses later Paul begins to describes the qualifications for an elder using the word episkopos (i.e., overseer) to describe this same group. Once again, Paul seems to use these two words for leader interchangeably.

It seems fair to conclude from these two passages that scripture makes no clear distinction between a prebuteros (elder) and an episkopos (overseer) in terms of their role in leadership. Therefore, we should consider these two terms to refer generally to leaders over a church, whether they serve as a pastor, an elder or both.

Are you sure Paul is refering to the same group each time.

We know that both Titus and Timothy were called " episkopos "

Anyone studying early Church history realizes that the Bishops were over the local "pastors".  These "pastors"  became known as "priests" later in the Catholic system.   However, there was a clear distinction early on in the Christian church.

The Bishops from the different regions would come to the ecomenical councils where important decisions were to be made. 
They seemed to operate more like regional "presidents".  In fact they were all on the same level as the bishop of Rome for the first couple centuries.

[Johann]

This might be worth considering:

Dr. Carrie Miles: On Phoebe.

The Greek word here (Greek is the language in which Paul wrote), usually translated as “servant” to refer to Phoebe, is deacon (diaconis), plain and simple – the same word that is translated as “deacon” throughout I Timothy and elsewhere. Moreover, Phoebe is described as a ruler, overseer, or patron (prostatis) over many – not a helper as it is often translated. For the same word, see I Tim 5:17 (also I Tim 3:4, 5, also in reference to elders/overseers). Therefore Phoebe, a woman, was a deacon and an “overseer” of her congregation. And rather than criticizing Phoebe for stealing men’s authority, Paul praised her and asked the Romans to help in her current mission to Rome.

[Dedication]

Romans 16:1   I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea: 
 16:2   That ye receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she has need of you: for she has been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Studying the word "diakonos" is very interesting.

In Paul's writings  (in the KJV) the word is translated:


"diakonos"
minister  17 times

Rom. 13:4; 15:8; 1Cor 3:5; 2Cor 3:6; 6:4; 11:23; Gal. 2:17; 3:7; 6:21;  Col 1:7,23,25; 4:7; 1 Thes 3:2; 1Tim. 4:6

deacon  3 times

Phil 1:1; 1Tim 3:8,12

and servant 2 times (both in connection with Phebe)
Rom 16:1,27




Let the deacons (diakonos) be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.  1 Tim 3:12

[Johann]

Romans 16:1   I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea: 
 16:2   That ye receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she has need of you: for she has been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Studying the word "diakonos" is very interesting.

In Paul's writings  (in the KJV) the word is translated:


"diakonos"
minister  17 times

Rom. 13:4; 15:8; 1Cor 3:5; 2Cor 3:6; 6:4; 11:23; Gal. 2:17; 3:7; 6:21;  Col 1:7,23,25; 4:7; 1 Thes 3:2; 1Tim. 4:6

deacon  3 times

Phil 1:1; 1Tim 3:8,12

and servant 2 times (both in connection with Phebe)
Rom 16:1,27

Let the deacons (diakonos) be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.  1 Tim 3:12

This means that if translators were consistent the text could read:

1 Timothy 3:10-13


10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as ministers.

11 In the same way, the female ministers(women) are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A male or female minister must be faithful to the spouse and must manage the children and the household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

It is not the Greek words, but tradition, which dictates the "usual" translation.

[Dedication]

10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as ministers.
11 In the same way, the female ministers(women) are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A male or female minister must be faithful to the spouse and must manage the children and the household well.
13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

3:8   Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 
 3:9   Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 
 3:10   And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless. 
 3:11   Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 
 3:12   Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
3:13   For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 

3:8 Ministrants -- in like manner grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not given to filthy lucre,
3:9 having the secret of the faith in a pure conscience,
3:10 and let these also first be proved, then let them minister, being unblameable.
3:11 Women -- in like manner grave, not false accusers, vigilant, faithful in all things.
3:12 Ministrants -- let them be of one wife husbands; the children leading well, and their own houses,
3:13 for those who did minister well a good step to themselves do acquire, and much boldness in faith that [is] in Christ Jesus.

In 3:11 the word   "gyn?" is the word for "women"  or "woman", though it is translated as "wife" in scripture quite a few times as well.
But notice the "their" is added  -- the possessive is missing in the original.   It's just talking about "women" not "their wives".

Interesting.