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[Gregory]

In the history of the SDA Church there are people who have made major contributions to the work of God on earth--far more than I will ever do.  Yet, everyone of them has been human.

The human condition is that of contamination by sin.  It is imperfection.  It is a failure to have the total knowledge of what God wants for them.  That is why the Holy Spirit spends the lifetime of each person teaching them.  It is failure to live up to God's standard.  It is a lack of belief.  It is doubt of the power of God.  It is contamination that is so deeply ingrained that it takes the power of God to remove and transform.

It appears to me that just about every time some one mentions a SDA (Dr. Running, Dr. Horn, Dr.  Theile, etc) as haveing done something good for God and that SDA Church, that person becomes a target to attack.  No one is perfect.  It is likely that some of the attacks are valid.   It may be said that they should be stripped of credentials, thrown out of the Chruch or some other punishment.

It appears to me that those  making such attaacks are also imperfect.  They also lack a fulloness of the knowledge of God.  They also probably doubt and lack belief.  I will suggest that I do not believe that the work of God is being done here by some of those who post here.  In additon, as Snoopy once asked, who would want to spend eternity with a God that is as some present here.  NOTE:  Not an exact quote.

[Gregory]

Here is one comment on Thiele:

For centuries scholars have puzzled over the problem of Old Testament chronology. One of the most difficult issues has been the synchronization of the reign of the Hebrew kings. The biblical records provide much information about these kings and how they relate to each other. But when all the information is put together it seems contradictory, as early as the third century B.C. attempts were made to correct these seeming errors in the biblical text. Solutions to these difficulties appeard even more remote as scholarship succeeded in determining the exact dates of events in acient Babylon and Assyria, and these dates seemed to be in hopeless conflict with the Bible.

 Dr. Edwin R. Thiele has addressed these issues and solved the problems related to the chronology of the Hebrew kings. By carefully studying the biblical data, he determined the dating methods of the early Hebrew scribes. By following the principles established by these scribes, Dr. Thiele has succeeded in producing a chronology that is consistent with the scriptural records and the records of other nations of the ancient world.

From its first publication this book has been recognized as a classic in the field of biblical studies. In this revised third edition Dr. Thiele reexamines the records in light of recent scholarship, explores more fully the Hebrew dual dating system, and offers a careful rebuttal to Shenkel's thesis that the Septuagint provides a more accurate chronology than the Masoretic Text does. This new material and the revised material from previous editions make this a book of great value to all students of the Bible.

NOTE:   This book can be purchased today on Amazon and other places.

[Gregory]

Coments have been made in this forum to the effect that named people should have their credentials withdrawn, or they should be expelled from denominational membership, or some other such.

There is an orderly process that has been set up in the SDA Chruch to do such.  Yes, as it has been said, the people in the seats are important.  They should have a voice in denominational policy and practice.  In fact, it is possible that they should have a larger voice.  Regardless. there is a process that has been established.  In that process, it is the local congregation that decides on membership.  There are committees that decide on credentials.  People who are accused should be given certain basic rights.  They should not be conviced on hearsey evidence.  The charges must be proven.

That is not being done by some who post here.  The reality is that probably none of those who post here are in a position where they have been given the authority to make these decisions.  THe process does not include comming to this public forum and making such statements.  Yes, they may have a general right to freely expres their opinion.  I do not deny that.  But, in assumning the right to determine the conditions under which peole should have their credential taken from them and/or their church menbership, they have assumed a posiiton of authority that has not been given to them.   They are not doing the work of God.

If they believe that God has called them to bring about the removal of credentials or membership,  let them bring their charges before the people and/or committies that are properly able to make such decisions.  It appears that they do not do so.  If this is true, it looks to me like there is another agenda that is being followed, another purpose in their mind.  Well, I cannot read minds.  I can only say what it looks like to me.

Of course, there are sincere people here.  People with whom I differ strongly may very well be sincere.

I wonder where this forum is going.  Atriste and I differed.  Where is she now?  I have not recently read anything from her.  Maybe she has been on vacation and will pop up tomorrow.  A post has been made here that looks to me like a personal threat that if I do not fit the mold that the poster wanted, I will be banned.  Based upon that post, I expected to be banned before now.  Well, I haven't.  So, I may have been wrong in my understanding of that post.    In any case, what is wanted for this forum?  Is this forum to be a place only those who agree on someones standard for belief are allowed here?  I sense a lot of intoleration here.  I guess those who own the forum can decide.  That is their right.

[Bob Pickle]

What issues did Theile later get into?

I have found his book very helpful. But it isn't infallible, his failure to note two invasions by Sennacherib being a case in point. But that doesn't detract from the extreme value of his work and his book.

Did Horn date post-Flood civilizations too early, such as before 2400 BC? If so, I don't think that telling students to go talk to someone else adequately addresses the problem. Claiming to not be qualified to discuss the chronology of Genesis is a poor excuse for giving bogus dates in a college classroom.

[Bob Pickle]

It appears to me that just about every time some one mentions a SDA (Dr. Running, Dr. Horn, Dr.  Theile, etc) as haveing done something good for God and that SDA Church, that person becomes a target to attack.  No one is perfect.

True. And we should remember Ellen White's rebuke of the fellow who criticized the reformers in an article in one of our periodicals.

But undermining belief in the Bible and SoP in a college classroom goes directly contrary to the principles of Adventist Christian eduction, and it matters not what sort of accomplishments someone has if they are in fact doing that.

[Bob Pickle]

Is this forum to be a place only those who agree on someones standard for belief are allowed here?  I sense a lot of intoleration here.

Gregory, as you will recall, you out and out refused to make any effort to harmonize your publicly stated position with Acts 15 and 9T 260-261, and then stated that you would not allow someone else to frame the discussion. That certainly sounds intolerant to me.

[Gregory]

It is setting the boundaries as to how I will participate.  Each person is entitled to set their boundaries and healthy people do.

Tolerance or intolerance is not involved.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Here's a point to ponder...European Division affirms unity with the GC... NOW, don't we have to wonder if the NAD would or could do the same? And Why Has JACKSON NOT SPOKEN???

WHY have we not called an Emergency Meeting of the GC Executive Committee?

Simple answer, NO POILITICAL BACKBONE!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy

[Bob Pickle]

It is setting the boundaries as to how I will participate.  Each person is entitled to set their boundaries and healthy people do.

"Healthy people" who happen to be committed Seventh-day Adventists don't mind trying to explain how their position harmonizes with the Bible and SoP. They don't simply refuse to even address the matter.

Suppose a Protestant who claims to believe in sola scriptura states that Sunday is the Lord's day, and then is asked by a Seventh-day Adventist where in the Bible it says that, and how such a position can harmonize with Is. 58:13-14. Suppose then that that Protestant refuses to answer the question, and also states he refuses to allow someone else3 to "frame" the discussion. One could hardly call that person "healthy."

[Daryl Fawcett]

Here's a point to ponder...European Division affirms unity with the GC... NOW, don't we have to wonder if the NAD would or could do the same? And Why Has JACKSON NOT SPOKEN???

WHY have we not called an Emergency Meeting of the GC Executive Committee?

Simple answer, NO POILITICAL BACKBONE!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy

In light of all of this, all the Divisions should affirm unity with the GC.    They are all in reality only divisions of the GC itself without any constituency of their own.   The leadership of each division are elected into those positions at the GC Session itself.

[Johann]

It is setting the boundaries as to how I will participate.  Each person is entitled to set their boundaries and healthy people do.

"Healthy people" who happen to be committed Seventh-day Adventists don't mind trying to explain how their position harmonizes with the Bible and SoP. They don't simply refuse to even address the matter.

Suppose a Protestant who claims to believe in sola scriptura states that Sunday is the Lord's day, and then is asked by a Seventh-day Adventist where in the Bible it says that, and how such a position can harmonize with Is. 58:13-14. Suppose then that that Protestant refuses to answer the question, and also states he refuses to allow someone else3 to "frame" the discussion. One could hardly call that person "healthy."

I was not going to post here until next week, but it is impossible for me not to object to this post. Some of us had the privilege of reading textbooks for the ministry written by an author you may have heard of. Her name is Ellen G White. I feel the claim you make here is so much out of  harmony with the principles we learned from her, that I have to object to your treating Gregory like that.

I will not be able to give you a short quotation to show you what is right or wrong here, except to tell you it is a principle based on a living relationship with Jesus Christ, which teaches you how to relate to people. Such a relationship has nothing to do with firing questions at people. If you would learn these principles - by reading all of the books Ellen White has written on gospel work and evangelism - you would know that asking this kind of question as you do here, you are not bringing that person into a relationship with Jesus Christ, you would be chasing them away from Christ.

I cannot teach you this in a discussion like this. This is an experience you have to gain through a living relationship with Christ - and by reading His prophets.

Gregory is right, and every soul winner must know that principle. Remember that when you meet your Catholic friend.

[Johann]

Today our Conference President showed us pictures from this ministerial counsel from where this report came.

The Sabbath sermon was given by Pastor Whintley Phipps. Other speakers were Arthur Stele and Lowell Cooper, Vice Presidents of the GC, Mark Finley, and others.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Today our Conference President showed us pictures from this ministerial counsel from where this report came.

The Sabbath sermon was given by Pastor Whintley Phipps. Other speakers were Arthur Stele and Lowell Cooper, Vice Presidents of the GC, Mark Finley, and others.

Nice to know, but what concrete aspect does it have to do with this thread?

[Johann]

Today our Conference President showed us pictures from this ministerial counsel from where this report came.

The Sabbath sermon was given by Pastor Whintley Phipps. Other speakers were Arthur Stele and Lowell Cooper, Vice Presidents of the GC, Mark Finley, and others.
Nice to know, but what concrete aspect does it have to do with this thread?

Just to help give a total picture of this TEC conference with 1,200 pastors and spouses, where the president openly makes known his personal conviction that the ordination of women is fully in accord with the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, but that he will wait for the GC to give its approval. It is also made clear that all of the union presidents within this division are in agreement that the ordination of women is in harmony with Scripture.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Today our Conference President showed us pictures from this ministerial counsel from where this report came.

The Sabbath sermon was given by Pastor Whintley Phipps. Other speakers were Arthur Stele and Lowell Cooper, Vice Presidents of the GC, Mark Finley, and others.
Nice to know, but what concrete aspect does it have to do with this thread?

Just to help give a total picture of this TEC conference with 1,200 pastors and spouses, where the president openly makes known his personal conviction that the ordination of women is fully in accord with the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, but that he will wait for the GC to give its approval. It is also made clear that all of the union presidents within this division are in agreement that the ordination of women is in harmony with Scripture.

How do you know that ALL the Union Presidents are in agreement that the ordination of women is in harmony with Scripture?