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[Bob Pickle]

The GC Session is the entity that recognizes the PUC. If the PUC refuses to recognize the authority of the GC Session, why would the GC Session have to continue to recognize the PUC?

Because a lot of financial support comes from the Pacific Union Conferance
Because one of Adventists most prestigeous hosipitals and universities are within the PUC

If money talks and can buy a union out of discipline, then no union should ever be dissolved, no matter how much or how little money they have. And leaders who want to play political games and cater to the money should be removed from office.

The university is a GC institution, not a union institution.

I agree that Unions should not be dissolved.

To avoid misunderstanding, let me add that I wasn't saying that the unions should not be dissolved.

I think conferences and/or unions have been dissolved in the past. I seem to recall some sort of situation like that in Africa, but I don't remember the details. I was saying that if money talks to that extent, unions that don't have that kind of money should never be dissolved either, because it wouldn't be fair to dissolve some rebellious unions and not others simply because some have money and some don't.

If CUC refuses to come into line, and no other course works, I support our church leadership if they decide to dissolve CUC.

[Artiste]

The GC Session is the entity that recognizes the PUC. If the PUC refuses to recognize the authority of the GC Session, why would the GC Session have to continue to recognize the PUC?

Because a lot of financial support comes from the Pacific Union Conferance
Because one of Adventists most prestigeous hosipitals and universities are within the PUC

If money talks and can buy a union out of discipline, then no union should ever be dissolved, no matter how much or how little money they have. And leaders who want to play political games and cater to the money should be removed from office.

The university is a GC institution, not a union institution.

I agree that Unions should not be dissolved.

To avoid misunderstanding, let me add that I wasn't saying that the unions should not be dissolved.

I think conferences and/or unions have been dissolved in the past. I seem to recall some sort of situation like that in Africa, but I don't remember the details. I was saying that if money talks to that extent, unions that don't have that kind of money should never be dissolved either, because it wouldn't be fair to dissolve some rebellious unions and not others simply because some have money and some don't.

If CUC refuses to come into line, and no other course works, I support our church leadership if they decide to dissolve CUC.

I agree with you, Bob, that some unions might need to be dissolved.

Was it just a rumor that a GC person said at the time of the PUC vote that the church had already determined that they could get along without the financial income of the PUC?

[Daryl Fawcett]

If the GC actually goes to the extreme measure of dissolving any of these Unions, what happens to all the assets within these respective Unions from the Union offices, down to the Conferences within these Unions, and also all of the local churches within these Unions?

[Bob Pickle]

B 95 15 Dissolution of Union Missions and Expulsion of Union Conferences/Union Missions ...

...

5. If a General Conference Session concurs with a recommendation to expel and votes to expel a union conference/union mission from the world sisterhood of unions, the division shall exercise direct responsibility for the conferences and/or missions/fields affected by the expulsion and shall, through its executive committee, take an action to attach them directly to the division until a new organization can be established or a rearrangement of territorial boundaries effected. Disloyal conferences/missions/fields shall be dealt with in harmony with the principles set out under B 75 10.

6. In the event of the dissolution of a union mission and/or the expulsion of a union conference/union mission from the world sisterhood of unions, audits of the financial records of the union conference/union mission shall be conducted. All assets remaining after all claims have been satisfied shall be transferred to a legal entity authorized by the division, or dealt with as specified in the union conference constitution and bylaws/union mission operating policy.

B 75 Adjustments in Organizational Status

...

When the decision to adjust an organization’s status becomes effective the organization shall immediately comply with the operational terms and relationships pertaining to its revised status. If the decision to adjust status involves dissolution of the organization concerned, the assets of the organization shall be distributed in harmony with applicable organizational documents (such as Articles or Bylaws).

[Johann]

If the GC actually goes to the extreme measure of dissolving any of these Unions, what happens to all the assets within these respective Unions from the Union offices, down to the Conferences within these Unions, and also all of the local churches within these Unions?

One wonders if that will ever happen. We have often heard that most of the money in our church comes from California, and therefore California rules the Church - to a degree.

One wonders - now we have passed a membership of 17 million while there are about 1 million in North America. This means that there are 16 million in other parts of the world. Now people elsewhere are asking: Why are our headquarters still in USA, and all but two presidents have been American. Jan Paulsen is one of those two.

The answer seems to be that it is because the money rules. The high standards of the church and its institutions is paid for by the church in America which might influence votes at the GC session.

If the present administration dismisses a Pacific Union there might be less funds left, and that could affect several of our institution as well as funds for evangelism. With less funds from America that might also influence members elsewhere to elect a non-US president at the next GC. We already have a strong representation of members from Africa and Asia in the Administration of of our GC.

Where is the influence of the Holy Spirit then? How will the Lord rule in His church?

[Daryl Fawcett]

What about the physical assets, as in Union Office, Union Institutions, Local Church Buildings within that Union, etc.

Also, what by-laws are being referenced in B 75?  Union Bylaws or GC Bylaws?

B 95 15 Dissolution of Union Missions and Expulsion of Union Conferences/Union Missions ...

...

5. If a General Conference Session concurs with a recommendation to expel and votes to expel a union conference/union mission from the world sisterhood of unions, the division shall exercise direct responsibility for the conferences and/or missions/fields affected by the expulsion and shall, through its executive committee, take an action to attach them directly to the division until a new organization can be established or a rearrangement of territorial boundaries effected. Disloyal conferences/missions/fields shall be dealt with in harmony with the principles set out under B 75 10.

6. In the event of the dissolution of a union mission and/or the expulsion of a union conference/union mission from the world sisterhood of unions, audits of the financial records of the union conference/union mission shall be conducted. All assets remaining after all claims have been satisfied shall be transferred to a legal entity authorized by the division, or dealt with as specified in the union conference constitution and bylaws/union mission operating policy.

B 75 Adjustments in Organizational Status

...

When the decision to adjust an organization’s status becomes effective the organization shall immediately comply with the operational terms and relationships pertaining to its revised status. If the decision to adjust status involves dissolution of the organization concerned, the assets of the organization shall be distributed in harmony with applicable organizational documents (such as Articles or Bylaws).

[Snoopy]

Sell them.  Sell them all.  I'm surprised Bob Pickle doesn't have them listed already...

What about the physical assets, as in Union Office, Union Institutions, Local Church Buildings within that Union, etc.

Also, what by-laws are being referenced in B 75?  Union Bylaws or GC Bylaws?

B 95 15 Dissolution of Union Missions and Expulsion of Union Conferences/Union Missions ...

...

5. If a General Conference Session concurs with a recommendation to expel and votes to expel a union conference/union mission from the world sisterhood of unions, the division shall exercise direct responsibility for the conferences and/or missions/fields affected by the expulsion and shall, through its executive committee, take an action to attach them directly to the division until a new organization can be established or a rearrangement of territorial boundaries effected. Disloyal conferences/missions/fields shall be dealt with in harmony with the principles set out under B 75 10.

6. In the event of the dissolution of a union mission and/or the expulsion of a union conference/union mission from the world sisterhood of unions, audits of the financial records of the union conference/union mission shall be conducted. All assets remaining after all claims have been satisfied shall be transferred to a legal entity authorized by the division, or dealt with as specified in the union conference constitution and bylaws/union mission operating policy.

B 75 Adjustments in Organizational Status

...

When the decision to adjust an organization’s status becomes effective the organization shall immediately comply with the operational terms and relationships pertaining to its revised status. If the decision to adjust status involves dissolution of the organization concerned, the assets of the organization shall be distributed in harmony with applicable organizational documents (such as Articles or Bylaws).

[Dedication]

Physical assets belong to the CHURCH.
They would stay with the instititutional church -- coming under the jurisdiction of the next higher level of church authority.
Remembering one church that was "dissolved", it was in an outlying community and the people had a combined church and medical clinic that the members had put a lot of money into, but when the church was dissolved EVERYTHING went to the conference and was basically "lost", as the conference sold everything and supposedly put the money in a "trust fund", but when a new group asked for financial assistance to start a church in that community once again, there was no money.   A lot of hard feelings... not good -- not good at all.


Such radical ideas are destructive.

There's no need for such radical moves.
All they have to do is say -- the motion and vote is OUT OF ORDER.
Any person ordained against the vote of the GC policy are not recognized by the church at large as ordained ministers and therefore are not entitled to whatever special privileges ordained ministers have.

[Artiste]

Physical assets belong to the CHURCH.
They would stay with the instititutional church -- coming under the jurisdiction of the next higher level of church authority.
Remembering one church that was "dissolved", it was in an outlying community and the people had a combined church and medical clinic that the members had put a lot of money into, but when the church was dissolved EVERYTHING went to the conference and was basically "lost", as the conference sold everything and supposedly put the money in a "trust fund", but when a new group asked for financial assistance to start a church in that community once again, there was no money.   A lot of hard feelings... not good -- not good at all.


Such radical ideas are destructive.

There's no need for such radical moves.
All they have to do is say -- the motion and vote is OUT OF ORDER.
Any person ordained against the vote of the GC policy are not recognized by the church at large as ordained ministers and therefore are not entitled to whatever special privileges ordained ministers have.

It may be that no unions are dissolved, but it is a matter of far more than "unordaining" any ministers that are not determined to be entitled.

The problem is that the unions have gone against the GC.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Have any of you read this response from the GC?

http://christorculture.com/portfolio-view/ted-wilson-responds-to-puc-constituency-meeting/

This is what it says there:

A special constituency meeting was held Sunday afternoon, August 19, 2012, in Southern California. On the agenda were two votes: 1) to change the bylaws of the Pacific Union, allowing the union to be out of sync with General Conference regulations; 2) to approve ordination to the pastoral ministry without regard to gender.
 
The bylaws vote needed a two-thirds margin to pass. This vote failed by one percent, consequently making an ordination vote irrelevant.
 
The executive committee continued the meeting to “discuss and vote on the ordination issue.” Though without teeth, the union voted 79 percent to 21 percent to recommend women’s ordination. This ordination vote did pass its 51 percent margin, yet the union still cannot ordain women due to the failed bylaw vote. To do so would put the union out of compliance with its own bylaws which still state:
 

“All the policies, purposes and procedures of this Union shall be in harmony with the working policies and procedures of the North American Division and the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.”
 
In conclusion, the union president Ricardo Graham stated, “I do not think this is a ‘win’ … but we have expressed our opinion through our vote.”
 
The response from the General Conference officers is as follows:
 

The 17 million members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church are united through the Holy Spirit in a common commitment to Christ and the truths of His Word, an urgent end-time mission, and a divinely inspired church organization. A threat to any one of these places at risk the unity of the church. It is for this reason that the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church affirms the Pacific Union’s action not to change their Constitution and remain in harmony with the world church. This represents a step in a positive direction. The General Conference leadership is seriously concerned, though, with the Pacific Union’s subsequent action to preempt the collective decisions of the world church regarding ordination. Unilateral actions contrary to the voted decisions of the global church seriously threaten the unity of the church.
 
The world church recognizes the vital role that women play in the life, ministry and leadership of the church and encourages their active involvement. Because the General Conference Administrative Committee has already voted and commenced the most comprehensive study in our history on the subject of ordination, which will include the study of the ordination of women, the action of the Pacific Union to grant Ministerial Ordination “without respect to gender” preempts the process voted for the current study of ordination theology and practices by committing the Pacific Union Conference to a particular outcome before the study-and-discussion process is completed. It also expresses a lack of trust in the integrity of the general process accepted and voted by General Conference administrators and personnel, division officers, and pastors and lay members from all the world divisions who serve on the General Conference Executive Committee, which includes the presidents of the 125 unions representing the world church, regarding how we approach common challenges.
 
Further, the action is contrary to General Conference Working Policy and sets aside the 1990 and 1995 decisions of the General Conference in Session respecting the practice of ordination. The action taken by the Pacific Union Conference represents a serious threat to the unity of the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church, and thus, at its next meeting in October 2012, as indicated in another recent public statement by General Conference officers and division presidents, the General Conference Executive Committee will carefully review the situation and determine how to respond. In the spirit of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the officers of the General Conference appeal to all entities, organizations, and individuals, including the Pacific Union Conference, to refrain from independent and unilateral decisions and from implementing any such actions.
 
It is our prayer that the “oneness” Jesus prayed for in His great intercessory prayer in John 17, and that which the disciples experienced in Acts 2, will be manifest in His church today. We pray that the result of this “oneness” will be lives transformed by His grace, united in His love, and empowered by His Spirit to proclaim His last-day message in all of its fullness to a perishing planet, hastening the glorious return of our Lord.
 
Ted N. C. Wilson, President
 General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
 
G. T. Ng, Secretary
 General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
 
Robert E. Lemon, Treasurer
 General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

[Daryl Fawcett]

I guess, by their own admission, the bottom line of their failure to change their own bylaws is that their other vote doesn't have any teeth in the sense that they can't implement it and go contrary to their own bylaws.

[Bob Pickle]

If the GC actually goes to the extreme measure of dissolving any of these Unions, what happens to all the assets within these respective Unions from the Union offices, down to the Conferences within these Unions, and also all of the local churches within these Unions?

One wonders if that will ever happen. We have often heard that most of the money in our church comes from California, and therefore California rules the Church - to a degree.

One wonders - now we have passed a membership of 17 million while there are about 1 million in North America. This means that there are 16 million in other parts of the world. Now people elsewhere are asking: Why are our headquarters still in USA, and all but two presidents have been American. Jan Paulsen is one of those two.

The answer seems to be that it is because the money rules. The high standards of the church and its institutions is paid for by the church in America which might influence votes at the GC session.

If the present administration dismisses a Pacific Union there might be less funds left, and that could affect several of our institution as well as funds for evangelism. With less funds from America that might also influence members elsewhere to elect a non-US president at the next GC. We already have a strong representation of members from Africa and Asia in the Administration of of our GC.

Where is the influence of the Holy Spirit then? How will the Lord rule in His church?

If our decisions are based on money rather than on principle, then we're being led by money, not be the Holy Spirit. It really is ungodly.

[Bob Pickle]

Physical assets belong to the CHURCH.
They would stay with the instititutional church -- coming under the jurisdiction of the next higher level of church authority.
Remembering one church that was "dissolved", it was in an outlying community and the people had a combined church and medical clinic that the members had put a lot of money into, but when the church was dissolved EVERYTHING went to the conference and was basically "lost", as the conference sold everything and supposedly put the money in a "trust fund", but when a new group asked for financial assistance to start a church in that community once again, there was no money.   A lot of hard feelings... not good -- not good at all.

If that church was dissolved because of declining membership rather than apostasy, there is another way to keep the assets more local: Merge with another congregation. Then it is that other church's leadership that would have control over the assets. If they are more prone to work with the few that remain at the other location, it should work out better.

[Daryl Fawcett]

If a Union were to be dissolved, I would assume a new Union would be created to take its place and would then be the one to hold the assets from the dissolved Union.

[Gregory]

If that church was dissolved because of declining membership rather than apostasy, there is another way to keep the assets more local: Merge with another congregation. Then it is that other church's leadership that would have control over the assets. If they are more prone to work with the few that remain at the other location, it should work out better.

Only with the permission of the Conference, which might give it.  The problem is:  In standard practice, (there are exceptions)  The Conference holds title to the real property.   The Constituency meeting would often have to approve.