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Author Topic: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19  (Read 39037 times)

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Murcielago

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2012, 01:49:15 AM »

In every generation the issues of that time have been put forth as apocalyptic at best. The issue of ordination of women is now apocalyptic to some. In time very recent people died for practice and belief differing from that of Christendom, Islam, etc. is this the great divide that will end it all? It would be incredibly arrogant ant self-centered to assume so. Yes, I have close friends who believe that today's vote means we have reached the point where the church falls apart and all hell breaks loose on mankind. This was thought for any of thousands of small changes in Christianity over the past 2,000 years. What incredible arrogance would bring us to assume that our small dispute is the greatest in all the history of Christianity?
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Johann

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2012, 02:02:30 AM »

Wow! Any job openings for Elder Castillo? Lol! I'm not sure he'll be welcome back in Silver Spring after today. Like he said, he may be coming back to CA a lot sooner than later after that speech.

Isn't he the Castillo who is the Vice President of NAD? Will this show us how closely related NAD is to GC?
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Bob Pickle

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2012, 06:30:13 AM »

The GC Session is the entity that recognizes the PUC. If the PUC refuses to recognize the authority of the GC Session, why would the GC Session have to continue to recognize the PUC?

Because a lot of financial support comes from the Pacific Union Conferance
Because one of Adventists most prestigeous hosipitals and universities are within the PUC

If money talks and can buy a union out of discipline, then no union should ever be dissolved, no matter how much or how little money they have. And leaders who want to play political games and cater to the money should be removed from office.

The university is a GC institution, not a union institution.
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Murcielago

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2012, 10:38:55 AM »

While I disagree with the position of the GC in this issue, I was appalled at some of the brazen disrespect aimed at Ted Wilson during the meeting. One can make their point without being insulting. While I think most of the presentations and arguments were gracious and informative, a few just made me cringe.
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Dedication

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2012, 09:09:48 PM »

In every generation the issues of that time have been put forth as apocalyptic at best. The issue of ordination of women is now apocalyptic to some. In time very recent people died for practice and belief differing from that of Christendom, Islam, etc. is this the great divide that will end it all? It would be incredibly arrogant ant self-centered to assume so. Yes, I have close friends who believe that today's vote means we have reached the point where the church falls apart and all hell breaks loose on mankind. This was thought for any of thousands of small changes in Christianity over the past 2,000 years. What incredible arrogance would bring us to assume that our small dispute is the greatest in all the history of Christianity?

Mankind is very good at making minor points THE TEST.   
We've had all kinds of issues set before the people as "the test".

But there is a TEST that has been prophesied,  and it's not about women vs men.
It's about WORSHIPING the Creator God, the One Who made heaven and earth and everything in them and rested on the seventh day.   It's about having the faith of Jesus and keeping God's commandments, including (and especially) the fourth.

A far more important criteria for ordination should be "does this person believe the fundamental, pillar truths  found in scripture, upon which this church was built, and do they show that they have a relationship with Christ."
That should be the criteria, not "are you male".

If people would simply follow God's commandments a great many of the GC policies would be unnecessary.   People would submit one to another in love, not seeking to rule over others, and if all pastors met the criteria of believing there would be a unity far greater than anyone will ever get by barring women from the ministry. 
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Johann

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2012, 05:01:39 AM »

In every generation the issues of that time have been put forth as apocalyptic at best. The issue of ordination of women is now apocalyptic to some. In time very recent people died for practice and belief differing from that of Christendom, Islam, etc. is this the great divide that will end it all? It would be incredibly arrogant ant self-centered to assume so. Yes, I have close friends who believe that today's vote means we have reached the point where the church falls apart and all hell breaks loose on mankind. This was thought for any of thousands of small changes in Christianity over the past 2,000 years. What incredible arrogance would bring us to assume that our small dispute is the greatest in all the history of Christianity?

It still amazes me how at an early age of 5 or 6 I understood what great upheavals would take place in connection with the Church of God. I understood those as being both internal and external, but I did not understand the detailed problems that would cause the internal shaking of the church.

Singing "Jesus loves me, this I know. . ." became the expression of my faith, while the Bedtimes Stories gave some hints indicating how a number of practical problems could be solved within the Christian family. The history of our Church evolved around Ellen G. White and her calling. I loved her and her straightforward messages to the believers, and therefore I never had any problems with the distinction of gender among those who worked for the Lord. My father was the hard working literature evangelist while my mother was my Spiritual guide and pastor of the home. She also had the education required of pastors in her day in Denmark, and she had worked as an associate - yes, they called them Bible Workers in those days.

In Seminary we had both male and female teachers. The females had to be a lot better than the men in those days.

Gradually I saw a growth, fully in harmony with Scripture and EGW as women were appointed to pastor churches around us, expecting to be fully ordained like the men, when their testing period was fulfilled.

Although i was not a delegate then, four members of our family went to Utrecht as observers at the GC session. I had never expected to experience anything like it. Just like a demolishing thunder from a clear sky came this blasting manipulation of Scripture aimed at the female pastors among us. It slowly dawned on me that our beloved Church was doomed for internal turmoil because of that blast. Delegates struck by fear that here was the great Day of Judgment, trembled as they held up their voting cards, hardly realizing what they were doing, but acting s if the were scrambling for their lives.

It was the beginning of the woes for our church. The tone of the preaching we heard from certain quarters changed. It was no longer sermons on Righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ, but a justification by rejecting female preachers as detestable as jewelry and moral iniquity. When I objected to some statements made by a preacher in a Sabbath sermon, he promised he'd show me in the writings of EGW that female pastors were forbidden in the church. He never brought that promised quotation. Neither has anyone else.

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Johann

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2012, 05:08:02 AM »

In every generation the issues of that time have been put forth as apocalyptic at best. The issue of ordination of women is now apocalyptic to some. In time very recent people died for practice and belief differing from that of Christendom, Islam, etc. is this the great divide that will end it all? It would be incredibly arrogant ant self-centered to assume so. Yes, I have close friends who believe that today's vote means we have reached the point where the church falls apart and all hell breaks loose on mankind. This was thought for any of thousands of small changes in Christianity over the past 2,000 years. What incredible arrogance would bring us to assume that our small dispute is the greatest in all the history of Christianity?

Mankind is very good at making minor points THE TEST.   
We've had all kinds of issues set before the people as "the test".

But there is a TEST that has been prophesied,  and it's not about women vs men.
It's about WORSHIPING the Creator God, the One Who made heaven and earth and everything in them and rested on the seventh day.   It's about having the faith of Jesus and keeping God's commandments, including (and especially) the fourth.

A far more important criteria for ordination should be "does this person believe the fundamental, pillar truths  found in scripture, upon which this church was built, and do they show that they have a relationship with Christ."
That should be the criteria, not "are you male".

If people would simply follow God's commandments a great many of the GC policies would be unnecessary.   People would submit one to another in love, not seeking to rule over others, and if all pastors met the criteria of believing there would be a unity far greater than anyone will ever get by barring women from the ministry. 

I really appreciate your input, Ulicia. You are pointing to reality  in our Christian experience.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2012, 05:38:27 AM »

It has been stated on Advindicate that the vote to ordain women at PUC was merely a straw vote, and was portrayed as such. Without the bylaws change, that's all it could ever be.

Also, http://advindicate.com/?p=1892 reprints statements voted by two different conferences within the CUC that they are not moving forward to ordain women without the authorization of the GC.

This is good news.
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Robert

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2012, 06:11:47 AM »

If God Doesn't change and women are not to teach men, then how could EGW give counsel to the leaders that she did?  How can we use her in any of the church writtings?  The GC and members should demand not a word she wrote ever be published again and what is now published should be destroyed.  This is what comes to my mind when I here all the arguement against WO.  Do you hear what you are saying?!?!?!  Would you have followed Hitler's orders to kill the Jews?!?!?!?!?
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Daryl Fawcett

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2012, 09:07:13 AM »

I read this at another forum:
Quote
I also believe that timing might be bad for PUC. German Union just acquiesced to the wishes of the Division to wait and there is an unconfirmed report that Pennsylvania has withdrawn support for the CUC wo decision.

Daryl Fawcett

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2012, 09:09:51 AM »

Does anybody have the link to the video discussion at the PUC?

Also the one for the Loma Linda discussion the day before the PUC Special Session?

Murcielago

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2012, 09:23:24 AM »

Does anybody have the link to the video discussion at the PUC?

Also the one for the Loma Linda discussion the day before the PUC Special Session?

Loma Linda University Church Forum - http://vimeo.com/47795695

Pacific Union Conference Session - http://swankav.mediasite.com/mediasite/Play/4a7a9c98563f457cb4546b3852c5c2561d

Documents, presentations, and resources from the PUC Session - http://session.adventistfaith.org/

Links, documents, and resources from the CUC Session - http://www.columbiaunion.org/article/1035/news/2012-news-archives/2012-special-constituency
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Johann

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2012, 11:08:58 AM »

If God Doesn't change and women are not to teach men, then how could EGW give counsel to the leaders that she did?  How can we use her in any of the church writtings?  The GC and members should demand not a word she wrote ever be published again and what is now published should be destroyed.  This is what comes to my mind when I here all the arguement against WO.  Do you hear what you are saying?!?!?!  Would you have followed Hitler's orders to kill the Jews?!?!?!?!?

Timely and worth considering, Robert.  :goodpost:
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Murcielago

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2012, 02:14:33 PM »

The GC Session is the entity that recognizes the PUC. If the PUC refuses to recognize the authority of the GC Session, why would the GC Session have to continue to recognize the PUC?

Because a lot of financial support comes from the Pacific Union Conferance
Because one of Adventists most prestigeous hosipitals and universities are within the PUC

If money talks and can buy a union out of discipline, then no union should ever be dissolved, no matter how much or how little money they have. And leaders who want to play political games and cater to the money should be removed from office.

The university is a GC institution, not a union institution.
I agree that Unions should not be dissolved. It would the cowards way out, and show a complete lack of administrative and managerial capacity for finding solutions to problems. It is the way the the Inquisition dealt with things. "If you can't be in full agreement with me, then I cannot, and will not tolerate your existence. Your body will be dissolved on the scaffold of unity that all might see and tremble at the fierce wrath of God and His church, and think twice before they incur said wrath and bring the spiritual body of Christ crashing down on them to destroy them from off the earth." It has been put to me that the GC is like a parent, and the CUC and PUC like recalcitrant children. So would you advocate that parents dissolve their recalcitrant children? End their existence? I wouldn't think so.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: PUC to vote to change bylaws August 19
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2012, 02:18:02 PM »

If God Doesn't change and women are not to teach men, then how could EGW give counsel to the leaders that she did?  How can we use her in any of the church writtings?  The GC and members should demand not a word she wrote ever be published again and what is now published should be destroyed.  This is what comes to my mind when I here all the arguement against WO.  Do you hear what you are saying?!?!?!  Would you have followed Hitler's orders to kill the Jews?!?!?!?!?

Robert,

1 Cor. 11 is plain that women can prophesy and pray in worship services. Other Scriptures make this plain too. Thus Ellen White did nothing wrong in what she did. We should not twist Paul's writings to mean something that he never meant.

Let's not use Paul's writings like many Sunday keepers do. Paul said a lot about the law, and they like to quote those passages, as you have likely personally experienced. But the fact of the matter is that Paul very pointedly spoke of the necessity of all Christians to keep the 10 Commandments, and therefore the verses used to say otherwise are being misinterpreted.
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