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[Dedication]

What do you mean by "authorize the organizing of churches and baptizing".

Of course many authorized to preach and evangelize, if they seriously do that, are going to be raising new churches and companies in places where their were none.

It seems a rather "new thing" to think of ordination as meaning being conference president.
The actual "authorization" or including a new congregation into the statistics of the conference records of churches is of course, the role of the conference administration, not the work of the evangelist or minister.

However, it is still the evangelist, pastor, or minister or even just a lay person preaching the gospel that raises up new churches in the first place.

As I've said before, since "headship" is to be male, ordination can still be granted to women to minister, while not entitling them to be "president" over the churches.
It's obvious that our early church didn't have a problem with women preaching the sermons and carrying the burdens of their local church, or witnessing in the community, which is essentially the work of the pastor.  So why not grant them the ordinance of recognition by the church?


As to baptizing--
The only problem I see there is the physical one.
Even men sometimes have a tough time raising a large convert back up out of the water.
As I've mentioned before -- the church board is responsible for accepting or rejecting a person into membership.
A responsible pastor will present the names of perspective baptisms to the board to be voted into membership pending their baptism, before it is presented to the church as a whole.  Then the church is also  required to vote a new member into fellowship before their names are added to the church list.

[Gregory]

What do you mean by "authorize the organizing of churches and baptizing".

An ordained, male, pastor, is authorized to organize a newly formed congregation after the local Conference has given permission for the congregatlion to be formed.  This is an administrative function that has nothing to do with an evangelist baptizing 200 new members who are then organized into a congregation.

It seems a rather "new thing" to think of ordination as meaning being conference president.
[/ quote]

Yes, it is relatively new in the SDA Chruch.  In our early days we had a female local Conference President for a short period of time.

However, it is still the evangelist, pastor, or minister or even just a lay person preaching the gospel that raises up new churches in the first place.

Yes, the person who organizes the congregation is usually not the one who converted the new members.

The only problem I see there is the physical one.
Even men sometimes have a tough time raising a large convert back up out of the water.

Not if they have been properly trained.  Problems only ocur if the person being baptized must remain in some device such as a wheel-chair or bed.

NOTE:  Some women are stronger than some men.  Yesterday I watched an attractive woman doing acts on trapeze bars.  She was clearly stronger than many men.  She was at least as strong as the man she was workign with.
 

the church board is responsible for accepting or rejecting a person into membership.

False. The Chruch Board can only recommend.  It is the congregation that votes one way or the other.  The Church Board does not have that power.

[Dedication]

Repeat post

[Dedication]

What do you mean by "authorize the organizing of churches and baptizing".

I was asking Bob, because that seemed to be his repeated question.
Unfortunately my response to his post appeared on the next page, thus losing the connection.

An ordained, male, pastor, is authorized to organize a newly formed congregation after the local Conference has given permission for the congregatlion to be formed.  This is an administrative function that has nothing to do with an evangelist baptizing 200 new members who are then organized into a congregation.

In all the churches I've seen officially organized, (and I've seen a few) First permission must be obtained from the conference.  If the conference says "no", that's the end of the matter.  If they say "yes",   then the pastor in consultation with leading members of the new group decide on a date.   Then conference personel  come for the service.  The official part isn't left to the pastor to do.   Sure he, along with the members of the new group then have "nominating committee" and set people into the offices, etc.

"The actual "authorization" or including a new congregation into the statistics of the conference records of churches is of course, the role of the conference administration, not the work of the evangelist or minister."



I wanted Bob to explain how this affected "ordination".

The only problem I see [with women baptizing] there is the physical one.
Even men sometimes have a tough time raising a large convert back up out of the water.

Not if they have been properly trained.  Problems only ocur if the person being baptized must remain in some device such as a wheel-chair or bed.

Yes they do! I've been witness.  It takes more than "proper training", it takes some co-operation from the person being baptized.   If they FORGET to keep their feet under them, or go limp, or do some panicky or other strange thing, the pastor may have a real struggle to get them up.  Get a bunch of pastors together talking about all their mishaps at baptisms and they can have you laughing for hours.

NOTE:  Some women are stronger than some men.

No argument there, I know I'm stronger than some men, but I also know there are men who are a LOT stronger than I am.
On the average men are  stronger than the average women.
 

the church board is responsible for accepting or rejecting a person into membership.

False. The Chruch Board can only recommend.  It is the congregation that votes one way or the other.  The Church Board does not have that power.

Why don't you take the WHOLE of what I said instead of contradicting half without reference to the whole.


"A responsible pastor will present the names of perspective baptisms to the board to be voted into membership pending their baptism, before it is presented to the church as a whole.  Then the church is also  required to vote a new member into fellowship before their names are added to the church list."

If the church board votes it down,  (unless the pastor goes against their vote) it never gets to the church.
[/quote]

[SDAminister]

The big problem in baptism can be the depth of the water; the shallower, the harder. Why do most lay people onto their backs?
There is a technique where the person steps forward and crouches down under the water. They are always in full control of themselves.

[Murcielago]

Does the Bible support the requirement of baptism into a congregation, and the vote if the church or the church board?

[Gregory]

Does the Bible support the requirement of baptism into a congregation, and the vote if the church or the church board?

Good question.

Sometimes SDA pastors have done exactly that--baptize without goining a congregation.  Sometimes they have gotten into trouble for doign so.

NOTE:  I do not baptize a person who does not intend to associate with a congregation as I think that the Bible is clear that there is a major spiritual benefit with associating with a congregation.

[Bob Pickle]

What do you mean by "authorize the organizing of churches and baptizing".

LP 42.

As I've said before, since "headship" is to be male, ordination can still be granted to women to minister, while not entitling them to be "president" over the churches.
It's obvious that our early church didn't have a problem with women preaching the sermons and carrying the burdens of their local church, or witnessing in the community, which is essentially the work of the pastor.  So why not grant them the ordinance of recognition by the church?

I agree that there is room for more than one type of ordination, especially since we already have in practice or in the SoP (a) ordination of ministers, (b) ordination of elders, (c) ordination of deacons, (d) ordination of physicians, (e) ordination of Christian help workers/deaconesses.

But then I would appreciate some sort of discussion on when a position should involve ordination and when it shouldn't. How about ordaining a VBS director? It's nebulous right now to me regarding when a position should involve ordination and when it shouldn't.

[Bob Pickle]

1 Corinthians 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, ....

Biblically, can we be baptized and not become a part of Christ's church? It doesn't appear to be so.

Note also the comparison in the same chapter between the parts of the body and the church. That means that we're talking about a closely connected organization, not some sort of mystical concept, when we are talking about the church in the context of 1 Cor. 12.